Well I suppose it had to happen sooner or later.

The wife phoned this afternoon to say that the rear tyre is flat and as she is blowing it up at the airline she can hear the air escaping.

Phoned Toyota Norwich who said that the nearest place to have it repaired is Attlebrough some 10 miles away, however they shut early this afternoon so I would have to to contact them on Monday but she thinks that there may be a chance to get it done by Tuesday- So decided to try one of the independents as supplied by Kirk Walker from Bridgestone

Local independent wouldn’t consider removing the runflats and putting normal tyres on, they say that it would be altering the cars specification. They also said that as it has been driven (albeit a mile) that the tyre will not be repaired and must be changed, apparently the sidewall on the tyre will be damaged? So the quote is Tyre change £230, if support ring is needed £322. They have to wait until Monday to order the Tyre as they have to prove they are authorised to do this, but are confident to have it done by Tuesday.

So my plan is to take the hit this time, but look for a Garage prepared to get all four changed to Normal ones.

In reality these runflats are nothing more than a hindrance. If she had the same problem with a normal tyre today she could have it fixed and be back on the road by now.

bit of a bgr eh?
I had a blowout on the motorway recently with my number1 rav - its got low profile 18" Falken tyres - didn't realise at the time and ran the car 3 miles home. The tyre was intact altho the sidewalls were damaged. Replacement cost? £89 for the tyre!! And the tyres are available easily.

On the subject of tyres, several local independent tyre cos have gone bust in the past month - bad news as it will lead to less competition and prices going up I reckon.

they are talking poop the runflats are designed to be run at 50mph for 50 miles before they are damaged beond repair.

Hi All,
Having just bought a matching alloy from the "retiring from forum" Mereside, then read this, I feel extremely smug in myself. This means I have a full set of wheels, on to which I can eventually fit non-RFT tyres. The foregoing story and money totals are a travesty.
Nobody except advice from forummers will stop me making MY car non-spec / non-standard by changing, especially not some tyre depot who don't even work decent hours to serve the customers they are bonkiing!!!
My thanks again to ORMI near Edinbureau for his educational recent postings on The Great RFT Rip-Off.

Enjoyed my weekend Moan,

Big Kev

I cannot add anything constructive to this post other than Toyota should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for ever using us as Guinea pigs for this crackpot rft scheme They have obviously learned the error of their ways by discontinuing them, now how about some compensation for everyone who has been inconvenienced or ripped off because of these runflats The whole saga is an absolute F******g shambles.. Stew

As a former T180 owner I do feel your pain

Is it worth finding out how much the tyres are on the face lifted SR model? These are the same Bridgestone tyres (minus run flat), so you could then find an independent to angle grind the run flat doughnut section off the alloys (with care!). You would need to buy a tyre filler from somewhere.

You would then have a car that looks like the normal T180 to the uninformed, but tyres that are quite a bit cheaper to replace!

I feel for you, I have been a T180 owner for only for the last 4-5 months and to be honest probably wouldn't have bought one had I found this 'Forum' beforehand. The T180 is a great car, but have already had to replace one tyre (after drain cover sliced my side wall, price £196 Watling tyres Tunbridge Wells) and as a result, which sent me into paranoia, bought a spare wheel and tyre from E Bay £450 delivered (probably the price of at least 2 services).
The problem is two fold not only monetry, but there is absolutely no network to support you when you have a puncture, almost preventing the T180 from being proper transport. Having been a regular T fan (LC though to Mr2 in my younger days(also currently run a Yaris)-and I must add I must be the only person who bought a new Toyota MR2 and had 4 short block engine replacements due to piston slap !)
I am now seriously, if I have any more punctures in succession thinking of PX'ing the car for something else-which I don't want to do.
I hope I don't beat your record!

I'm sure someone paid over £400 for one a while back. Don't forget that they can damage your valve/tpms (sorry find that your valve has been damaged!! ) when they replace the tyre, which could add another £100 odd to the bill. If I was in a position to change my car, I would.

My feelings on this subject are well chronicled and I would not only go for standard wheels but make sure they were not fitted with Bridgestones. They are enjoying total exclusivity which is despicable.

All T180 owners should boycott them and let them stew in their unsold rip-off stock.

@rseholes

Chaps, As usual thanks for all your support.

I managed to catch a local tyre fitter at 1700hrs this evening who thinks he may be able to help. I have forwarded him DarenB's photo's and instructions so that he can see what I am after and he will let me know on Monday if he thinks he can do it. This in effect means that a nail in the tyre today could be costing up to £500 (my guess at the moment).

However, on a positive note, once these are replaced I will be able to keep the car on the road without being held hostage to these stupid tyres and Toyota!

Daren, if you do read this then many thanks for being so organised with the photo's!

no doubt. I ran my Falken at 70+ so I suppose I got what I deserved. Wheel intact no bother but.

The RFT are not without merit and there is a safety aspect which is being totally ignored. Having control over the car in the event of a blowout or not having to be in the dangerous situation of changing a flat wheel at the side of a road on a 4x4 vehicle with vans and lorries flying past at speed is something you can not put a price on.

I cant have this whining about the price of a puncture or a RFT. Do your homework and know the cost of these things-dont let the dealer or independent put the arm in.

Anchorman, i cant see what a boycott would achieve and im surprised at you getting involved with the penny pinchers. I would not put £89 tyres on any vehicle let alone a 4x4.

The RFT fightback begins.

T180 Belfast, perhaps my point wasn’t as clear as it should be. I am employed as a Health and Safety consultant so the concept of Risk v Cost v Likelihood v Severity isn’t new to me

Penny pinching is not something I am guilty of. I am quite happy to pay for good quality tyres for my car, but to have to pay £1300 for 4 is over the top in comparison to other cars of a similar mark with similar systems. When I bought this car there was a reasonable scheme in place that was withdrawn without consultation leaving me and others in the captive position of having to pay a premium!

My vehicle seldom goes on motorways or dual carriageways so to quantify the need for these due to blowouts would be over the top but I would hope that the cars anti-skid system would play it's part in preventing accident as well.

The cost of the tyre is £118, the band £46, so my homework is done. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain how this ends up being £330 fitted. Puncture with a nail, car driven for 5 miles to garage! If you know of anywhere within 50 miles of Norwich where I can have this fitted for half the price that’s been quoted then please let me know.

All tyres meet safety standards and the manufacturing costs of these ones are no different, they simply are marked to show there is a runflat band inside. The difference comes in the fact that we are paying for our share of the expensive equipment that is required to fit them.

We don’t have a choice! We have to use a garage that has the Bridgestone Run Flat equipment installed, so I fail to see how we can follow your advice. “don’t let the dealer or independent put the arm in”. And to be fair to them they have been forced to install this equipment at considerable cost. The garage I spoke to yesterday says he uses the equipment on average once every four months.

Its a good job you don't run a black cab like me, a few of those (NOT MINE) are running £25 remoulds, New Michelin Taxi tyres £60 supplied fitted + balanced Stew

Hi T180,
I think that if you are going to talk about "safety aspects" you might consider the wider Toyota/RAV4 picture. I can see that the Bridgestone RFT system could be considered a safety feature but it's difficult to portray it in that light when it’s so difficult to get the tyres repaired. If they are suitable for 50 miles at 50 mph it still wouldn’t mean that you could drive confidently in any part of the UK let alone anywhere else. The temptation would be to exceed the “50 miles” to get to a place where you could get a repair or if you were really lucky – a replacement. I don’t know how long the tyre would really last before it was reduced to shreds or, probably more likely, caught fire.

Contrast this with the situation on the rest of the RAV range where there is no spare wheel and no TPMS. If you have a puncture, particularly on a high speed road, you are very unlikely to find out about it until the sidewall is irreparably damaged. To effect a repair it is necessary to re-inflate the tyre after filling it with a sealing compound. Toyota supply a Repair Kit in lieu of the spare wheel which includes the jack, sealing compound and a compressor. This procedure has a very high degree of risk associated with it as there is no way of knowing the structural condition of the tyre wall when you are repairing it. That to me is an accident waiting to happen.

Toyota would no doubt argue that the lack of a spare wheel is no great threat as we all have far fewer punctures these days. I think that Taylor6971 would agree that this is not the way to go about a risk assessment, it is necessary to consider the consequences of an incident as well as the likelihood. IMHO Toyota are exposing themselves to a claim of negligence the first time the failure of a compound filled tyre causes an accident.

Both the supply of the RFT and the repair systems are commercial decisions by Toyota to reduce the kerbside weight of the vehicle and allow them to achieve and claim fuel consumption and emissions figures that they wouldn’t manage otherwise. It also reduced their build costs and potentially increases their profit margin.

I find it difficult to justify the lack of even a space saver spare wheel when it has the potential to put the customer at, what is to my mind, an unacceptable risk and have along with others on this forum, mitigated the risk in my own vehicle by carrying a spare wheel and fitting an aftermarket TPMS.

the tyres on the rav even when flat will never shred or catch fire the tyres don't compress enough for that to happen and thats what the band is their to stop.
don't get me wrong i'm all for run flat tyres just not the ones on the rav bmw,audi,reno etc have run flats and they dont use the bands.

I'm not advocating the use of budget tyres - I won't use them myself but I do object strongly with Bridgestone and Toyota colluding in the use of an exclusivity deal on the most consumable item other than the fuel. It isn't the concept I object to it is the cartel. On the other hand, Bridgestone are supposed to have opened up the market by letting independants stock the tyres. So far the cost is either higher than going to Toyota or they just can't or won't hold them. It stinks.

I don't know that the new SR with conventional 18" wheels and tyres is any less safe than a T180.

Just my opinion.

I'm getting pretty fed up with the whole Run Flat saga. I'll be needing 2 new front tyres very soon so i enquired at my local dealers about the possibility of removing the support ring and relying on tyre repair kit. They said it was possible but I would need to speak to Toyota UK direct to get their approval. I rang the toyota customer care department on Thursday morning and spoke to a lady who did seem to know there was an issue with the BSR system but was unable to give me any definitve advice. She would only give her "Recommendation", when I really wanted to a yes/no answer to whether the dealership could remove the support ring. I asked if she could speak to the technical team and get back to me, but I am still waiting. If the independants are also refusing to take the support ring out (dont fancy anyone taking an angle grinder to the rims) I think I will be seriously contemplating trading the car in for something else, but there is nothing that really tickles my fancy.

I have emailed the nearest suitablly kitted independant place to see if they are able/willing to the remove the support rings. So we will wait to see what they have to say, but even if I am able to remove the BSR i would still have the added problem of the Tyre Pressure Sensors.

Haha - so you wouldn't use Falken tyres then??? I'd suggest you deserve what you get then. If the Falken can survive a blowout at 100 with no effect on the cars handling then it says a lot for both the tyre and the 4.1 model. Of course if its a 5 door LWB you have, then I can't comment.

Most of what I want to say has already been covered. As per Taylor6971, there was a reasonable replacement scheme in place when i bought. I specifically asked the saleman about it, and he even gave me an internal doc with the charges etc, which have been posted on this forum in the past. Also, I do not scrimp on tyres either. My last car was a Mazda RX8, with 18" low profile tyres. I replaced these, all 4 at once, when the time came, at a cost of £180+ a corner. As anchorman says, it's the cartel they have that annoys me. I would prefer to have RFT's, but not this system. And also, as Taylor6971 is experiencing now, your car can be off the road for 3 or 4 days. Mine was off road for 2 and half days when I had a puncture.

The debate of run flats will never go away !!. Having had a blow out many years ago I like having the runflats, expensive yes, but what price safety? I had to replace all 4 at the beginning of the year, £950 !!. But what I did was keep the best tyre aprrox 4mm in tread so if I ever need one I can at least keep mobile until I get a replacement.

As a victim of the Toyota/Bridgestone cartel, I can categorically state that the whole system stinks to high heaven. My RAV was off the road for almost a week because of a puncture! I bought a spare wheel and tyre off ebay for peace of mind, because it's not much use to be able to cover 50 miles at 50 mph if you're 200 miles from home and don't want to wait days for a dealer to fit a tyre for you and rip you off in the process. When I had my recent puncture, I contacted several independent fitters, all of whom were more expensive than my dealer! Not very satisfactory and I'll be chopping the RAV in next year for something else and Toyota can stick their brand up their a**e as far as I'm concerned. All because they used T180 owners as guinea pigs for a system that they have now quietly dropped.

More like trapped rats than guinea pigs. They weren't experimenting, they knew exactly what they were doing.

These are high quality tyres and if they are good enough for Lexus.............. I changed two RFT a few weeks ago costing £120 each + vat + £20 fitting - so £1300 for four seems totally exorbitant. Don't have any sympathy for the garage because when you are being quoted these types of prices ( when you already know the average cost ) they don't have any for you. Haggle hard and listen to no hard luck stories about machines not being used.

The RFT is a very good system on an excellent car. Safety comes first with me and cost further down the list.

Anchorman The T180 is a top of the range vehicle aimed at a different market than the rest of the Rav range and the RFT system is part of this strategy. Using the terms like trapped rats and guinea pigs is disingenuous to me, who is more than happy with the RFT system.

My wife is the main driver of the car and to know she is not sitting at the side of the road -day or night- with a flat is reassuring.This along with all the other safety kit, driver aids and four wheel drive when needed makes the T180 a very worthy car.

Toyota have a history of this going back many years - when the RAV was launched in the UK back in 1994, the only tyre made for it was a Dunlop and it was at the time a unique size. Back then a tyre cost £200 !!! We waited 6 weeks for a replacement windscreen back then as well.

In the same year I bought a Previa and surprise..... the tyres were a unique size with a replacement costing £200. I can now buy replacements for the Previa at well less than £100 !

Maybe all manufacturers do it?

No problem, tell the guy it's really straight forward, not difficult, the only small delay had was getting the last bits of the tyre edge off but it was only a 5 min delay. The whole operation took about 15-20 mins per wheel. By the way someone commented 'im not taking an angle grinder to my alloys' in fact because the run flat band sits well up off the alloy the grinder wheel should not touch the alloy, the guy who did ours used a small wheel grinder and was very careful stopping regularly to check he wasn't near the alloy. You can see in my photos after the band came off there wasn't a mark on the alloy but whoever is using the grinding wheel just needs to go slowly and carefully. Good luck.

It's all very well having a 'Top of the Range' vehicle if you have a 'Top of the range wallet' but I am not sure that it is acceptable to become a hostage to a particular tyre manufacturer or dealer when it comes to repair.
The concept of the RFT is a good one from the safety point of view and other manufacturers have used a different approach fairly successfully. The Toyota system with the band is an adaption of a military solution where saving the tyre is secondary to saving the personnel - the tyre/wheel assembly becomes completely disposable in a combat situation I would imagine.

Carrying a spare wheel/tyre has been a long and succesfully proven solution to having a flat and, provided the spare is maintained and the driver is either able to change the wheel themselves or is a member of a motoring organisation, he/she would not be stranded for very long.

The Toyota RFT system has been trialled largely 'In the field' by owners who have had, as you say, some security in the event of a puncture or blow out but who have also been footing the development bill to a considerable extent and putting up with considerable inconvenience to boot.

The fact that Toyota seems to be moving away from this particular technology speaks volumes to me personally.
Ultimately though it all comes down to personal choice and 'horses for courses'
Just a shame that Toyota has not been completely transparent about the potential costs and drawbacks of the system and also that they don't seem to want to offer any help to those who want to rid themselves of it.

Hi T180 Belfast

My previous reply may have been lost in all the others as this is always an emotive subject.

We are alike in that neither of us would compromise safety for the sake of money but it isn't the concept of these tyres that frustrates me it is the fact that they are not freely available in the aftermarket at a price that reflects the real cost of producing them. Our friend from Bridgestone came on and told us all the things that we wanted to hear in terms of development costs, servicing costs and the relaxation of this tie up with TGB. You have said that you can get them at what sounds like a much more reasonable price than many others here. This is a demonstration that all things are not equal unless we are to believe that considerable regional difference in price can be expected. The RAV in the USa is available with a V6 engine which is quite comparible with a T180 but the US marketing people have not seen it necessary to utilise this system and my feeling is that the US market place dictates that they would not be accepted. Is the vehicle any less safe or debased in terms of its position at the top of the range for not having them? I don't believe so.

I accept the T180 is a remarkable vehicle with matching performance and that the RFT concept can only enhance the package. What I cannot accept is that some owners are being fleeced for the cost of replacing them. I worked in the motor industry for many years and have attended the meetings where some bright spark wanted a notch or a lug that would make the replacement of pads impossible unless they were bought via them and this has that smell to me.

Just wait until one of the competitors comes up with a compatible product and see the prices tumble. That is when owners who then have a choice are likely to boycott the Bridgestone/TGB tie up and that is when they hopefully end up with egg on their face through not taking a measured approach to recovering the sytem costs.

Guys,

Just to let you know the end of my saga...

I contacted the independent this morning and they said that after speaking to Bridgestone they couldn't remove the support ring. According to Bridgestone the support ring is an integral part of the wheel assembly and as such if removed lessens the strength of the wheel. I don't believe that for a minute! However this was enough to scare them away from doing the job.

So at this point I then bit the bullet and had the RAC come and collect the car and take it to Attleborough (24 miles away) to have the tyre changed. Fortunately Attleborough being one of the better Garage's keeps a tyre in stock and were able to do it this afternoon. So one new tyre fitted £217.50! The support ring thankfully was okay!

My next plan is to see if I can find similar looking alloys and then get all four changed, so for you Run Flat lovers, keep looking out on ebay if you want a spare!

On a serious note, this forum is an excellent place for advice, support and just to vent your anger. I may not always agree with what everyone says, but I am really happy to be part of a forum where we all feel comfortable to say what we are thinking.

Thanks again chaps

I had the local independant garage come back to me today. They had spoken to the Bridgestone Health & Safety department and were told that they were able to remove the support ring, but I had to sign some sort of declaration/waiver and contact my insurance company to inform them that I had changed the original specification of the car.

BUT: They would charge me £40 per wheel to remove the support ring and then £150 for each new tyre. If i went for 4 tyres then that would be £760. Probably get a new set of wheels and tyres for that sort of money and recoup the cost by selling the wheels/tyres.

Just dont know what to do??

I can't think why a support ring is required to strengthen the wheel. Yes - to support the tyre. But if the structural integrity of an alloy wheel is dependent upon a support ring (when every other cars' isn't), then I'd be worried - if I didn't think Bridgestone were talking bull. The waiver is a scare tactic. As is contacting your insurance company - that's none of Bridgestone's business.

Buy standard alloys and tyres and offset the cost by selling your T180 set.

My T180 gets its 2 year service at the end of the month. All this cr*p is seriously making me think of getting rid of my T180 (there's a nice Mercedes ML500 for sale in Hamilton...)

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

That was me and I can assure everyone here the T180 alloys are totally standard alloys, they are not made to suit a support ring, the support ring is made to fit the wheel! The same tyre used on them is also used on Lexus which don't have the run flat system.
Don't believe the scare tactics, removing them will not affect the safety or driving of the car at all, in fact if anything it improves the ride slightly (not as stiff on the road).
Also as another member here pointed out in Europe the T180 was sold with or without the run flat system and the wheels were the same. I think the wheels suit the car so why burn money by changing them

Just buy a spare to keep in the boot in case you get a puncture.

Asking a daft question - I have Bridgestones on my Rav (02 reg 2.0 D4D), they look newish, not aware that they are anything other than normal tyres - would they be these run flat types - now hoping they are not !!
Nothing said re tyres when I bought the car from a garage !

Cheers

Don't panic!!

They are not run flats, run flats are only fitted to T180 and SR180 models

Niceone - thanks

Thanks to DaronB and Anchorman et all....I've read enough....I am now looking to purchase a small angle grinder for future use.
I will find a local guy nearer the time to jack the car up two wheels at a time and remove said apparatus, and I will remove the rings myself if need be.
ORMI and Anchs can expect some stupid questions re the "detecty pressure down sendery" things when I proceed.
Am particularly pleased re DaronB remark on slightly improved ride quality, which I find slightly "choppy" and had already blamed a bloody great steel band round my wheels before consultation with anybody. Mind you, the roads up here could lead to the closing of Catterick tank testing areas.
Cracking posting. Thanks to Taylor---- for starting(I also use one of your guitars.....marvellous!)

Big Kev

Could be the fact that a nice big spare wheel hanging on the back door of the RAV ....as all those with run flats or sealant have no spare tyre. The 4.2 model RAV as voted the best looking RAV Model never had these fitted...

As I said before just be really careful, take your time and stop regularly to to check and stop heat from building up. With care and patience it's a doddle

Recognise these Kev? This is the new 18" wheel - it just has a gunmetal colour and uses conventional tyres;



........and don't worry about the TPMS. It will continue to work and in any case we can get rid of that!

Just a quick word of warning...

The Yokohama Geolandar G91 in size 235/55R18 is currently only available in the USA

Wheels are the same design though duncs - I was looking at them on an SR recently.

There are loads of 235/55/18 tyres I found some Yokohama G0 51 but why Yokohama? General grabber used by Chatters + Hoovie are available for under £100 in that size Stew

I have Bridgestone's on mine now...but have a GG tyre as the spare....ooh did I say SPARE TYRE and mine are 235/55 R60 in size.....

Hi Anchorman,
Yep...them's the wheels I've got, albeit I prefer the all over alloy rather than the darkened centre. Saw them on a branny the other dat at Mr.T.
Thanks for note on TPMS.

bIG kEV.

Just picked up my Rav4 from the local dealer today having had my discs skimmed and the Service Manager (who is always pretty helpful) brought up the subjects of the dreaded Runflats....they do not have the gear to do them and have had to take them in a van to a North East dealer in the past, so he told me he had been in discussions with a local tyre centre (Haven Tyres, Lillyhall) to see if they would consider purchasing the gear. So far, they haven't agreed to do it...however, they took out the support rings on a couple of wheels (I'm certain he said 1hr labour for two wheels) and have said they will offer the service in the future!
Looks like an option for me in the future....I would get the compressor/gunk should I have a proper flat.....but I will leave the TPMS connected (I realise that the gunk blocks them and they cost ££s to replace) but I've got to look at the number of punctures people get these days and think that even if I get one, there is a chance it will be a slow one and be picked up by the TPMS, thus allowing me to pump it up a bit and simply go direct to nearest tyre centre for repair/replacement (before needing to add the gunk).
Seems a pretty sensible option for me.
I expect it would have been a different story if the dealer had the gear...but they haven't and they do need to support customers who have bought Rav4s with RFTs.

It's strange (ha ha) that Toyota have not insisted all dealers have the equipment.

Usually to be an official dealer of an international motor company your showroom and service facilities have to meet their minimum standards otherwise you lose the franchise.

I don't have a T180 but did ask about run flats at my local dealership and they don't have the facility either.

Do you think Toyota have been treating this as an expirement? (can't find a cynical smilie)

It must be down to the number of cars with RFTs they sell locally....it won't make good business sense if they only get 2 or 3 in a year for new tyres. Now the RFTs are going to be phased out (i.e. Toyota binning them and owners removing support rings/changing alloys) it wouldn't make sense to buy the gear now.
For the ones who bought the equipment and scammed customers in the early days (when they insisted the ring was always replaced)....soon enough, they are going to have to offer set price deals to change tyres (and not charge by 2 hrs labour) to try and coax people in and perhaps make them reconsider about doing away with the BSR (and get some use out of the equipment before it becomes redundant kit).

Hi again

Isn't it amazing the variety of stories that we have all been told about these run flats. I don't doubt for a minute what anyone has said on here, but I have Bridgestone telling my local tyre fitter one thing, another fitter something different and then a Toyota franchise actually removing them. So much for them being "an integral part of the wheel assembly".

I think I may contact trading standards over this and ask them to get involved. This is beginnining to feel like dealing with Arthur Daily rather than Bridgestone and Toyota.

Regardless of your feeling for the actual device, this lack of clear and honest guidance on these is shameful!