I occasionally analyse my driving, and recently I noticed that under certain conditions I double-declutch on a downshift.

I know that modern gearboxes really don't need it, but I find that it gives a smoother change.

I was wondering how dated I was, or is there anyone out there that still does it?

All the time. I nearly always heel-and-toe as well although the pedals in the MR2 are not best placed for it!

Don't worry - I know a load of people who still double declutch.

It's just good practise, I think. More mechanically sympathetic and if you use heel and toe, you can carry more speed through the bends.

QUOTE (Funkadelic @ Mar 16 2004, 04:00 PM)

All the time. I nearly always heel-and-toes as well. It's just good practise, I think. More mechanically sympathetic.

Whew, glad I'm not completely alone

I used to heel & toe, but I find the pedal configuration in the Avensis to be incompatible - at least for my feet

QUOTE (yannick @ Mar 16 2004, 02:58 PM)

I occasionally analyse my driving, and recently I noticed that under certain conditions I double-declutch on a downshift. I know that modern gearboxes really don't need it, but I find that it gives a smoother change. I was wondering how dated I was, or is there anyone out there that still does it?

excuse me if i sound thick but what is double-declutching?

QUOTE (nezerr @ Mar 16 2004, 04:03 PM)

excuse me if i sound thick but what is double-declutching?

You're not being thick, it is a little old-fashioned

I was wondering if I should describe what it was, or if it would be taken as patronising. Obviously I should have.

Here's the deal:

• press the clutch
  
• move the gear level to neutral
  
• release the clutch
  
• blip the throttle (optional)
  
• press the clutch
  
• enter new gear
  
• release the clutch
  

that way you're not relying so much on the synchromesh to match the gear speeds, so it's easier on the box.

Oh, BTW heel & toe is when you do all that while braking. You use the right foot to operate both the brake & the throttle at the same time

aah rite i c now...lol

wouldnt that put more stress on the clutch making it ware out quicker though?

The real idea behind double declutching is that, when you blip the throttle with the car in neutral, you match the engine revs with the same amount that your car would be doing at your current speed, albeit in a lower gear.

If you get it right your syncros should hardly have to work at all, and this makes life much easier for your gear box - The only way you'll wear the clutch out faster is if you cause it to slip.

Heel and toe, as Yannick says, is the combination of double declutching under braking. It combines braking and downshifting into one smooth movement, whilst simultaniously eliminating drivetrain shunt and clutch braking which, on a track, can mean the few split seconds between first and second place. However, it does mean that you carry alot more speed through the twisties and can feel a little odd at first!

QUOTE (Funkadelic @ Mar 16 2004, 04:15 PM)

The real idea behind double declutching is that, when you blip the throttle with the car in neutral, you match the engine revs with the same amount that your car would be doing at your current speed, albeit in a lower gear.  If you get it right your syncros should hardly have to work at all, and this makes life much easier for your gear box.

As he said, it's easier on the box, and as you are doing the changes in engine speed while the clutch is engaged & in neutral, it should be easier on the clutch as well. The only thing that really gets used more are the clutch springs & the pedal



Edited: oh, and your foot as well

just drove round the block to try this clutch thingy out
it lost me i nearly smashed the thing up i was
concentrating on clutch forgot to brake the way i see it
the gearbox is under warranty for 3 years so think ill press clutch
once ! it was fun trying it though

luv kimi

Double declutching steams from the old crash box days (I can only just remember them ), I used to do it regularly untill I took my HGV 1 recently, it was only when the instructor said " What do you think you're doing, the examiner won't accept that on your test as it could be classed as not beeing in full control of the vehicle!
The other things I used to do were progressive braking on emergency stops and changing down through all the gears, all no-no's now.

My driving instructor used to be a high pursiut driver for the police, and after my test he showed me how to double declutch... in a 1.6 Focus He made that thing come alive, which shocked me.

My 86 gets double declutched and Heel-Toed all the time, force of habit really, but it's an engine that really needs to be kept on the boil otherwise it seems rather lazy

QUOTE (GIDDLEPIN @ Mar 16 2004, 08:52 PM)

Double declutching steams from the old crash box days (I can only just remember them ),

I learnt originally because I had a car with the synchro worn out on 2nd gear. It was either double declutching or triple crunching

QUOTE (yannick @ Mar 16 2004, 03:06 PM)

press the clutch move the gear level to neutral release the clutch blip the throttle (optional) press the clutch enter new gear release the clutch

blipping the throttle is not a option when driving a truck you have to do it cause it sounds good when your changing down!!!!

don't do it so much in my car I would rather use the brakes to slow me down than the gearbox as brakes are a bit cheaper to replace

Coming from motorbikes, I found it hard NOT to blip the throttle on the downchange. A bike is so much more dynamic near the limits that anybody who doesn't match the new RPM of the lower gear to their wheelspeed quickly finds themselves snaking all over when changing down and braking...

Trouble is, my hands are now fairly dextrous (independent brake, steering and throttle inputs from the same hand) while my feet are like clubs. Only been driving 6 months!

Practice makes perfect tho', and I'm determined to crack the heel'n'toeing lark. I can't stand lurching whilst braking and turning-in! I'm gonna come a cropper if I don't sort it out, been reliant on the ABS a little too much!

Slipping the clutch to match the engine revs really sucks and ain't good for spares/repairs costs I'm sure!

Still, driving over to the proving grounds tomorrow for some performance testing, might get there early and polish off the Toyos, errr... I mean "dry the racing line off, boss!"

I originally learnt on one of our old landrovers, the series II's don't have syncro boxes so double de clutching is vital. I still forget now and do it on the '2.

If anybody is curious as to exactly what "Heel & Toe" is, here is an article.

For more info, just do a search on Google. There are loads of sites that explain how to do it.

I was under the impression that double clutching & heel toe were as stated; methods used to help older gearboxes....

however I also thought, as briefly touched on by someone; that these methods are carried through into track driving as it helps to maintain more speed through the bends.

It's only of any real benefit to highly tuned race monsters these days though?

As mentioned, double declutching is mainly for older gearboxes without synchro. If you continue to use it with modern gearboxes the real advantage is smoother changes and less wear on the hardware.

Heel & toe is uniquely a motorsport thing. It is used to be able to maintain the engine at the correct speed while breaking & downshifting at the same time. It gives you a lot more control over your car on the approach to, and in, the corner.

Now that we've got that sorted - who's up for a discussion on left-foot braking

Left foot braking - i nearly went thru the windscreen!!!

I tend to do it as well since my car is getting on a bit, certain gears won't go in smoothly as it used to. Still no too bad but just to reduce the beating it gets...

QUOTE (Ryan1985 @ Mar 17 2004, 11:26 AM)

Left foot braking - i nearly went thru the windscreen!!!

QUOTE

Ha ha, have u all tried that?

I too nearly went thru the windscreen first time..............eek

Sod left foot braking. Can't do it.

QUOTE (Funkadelic @ Mar 17 2004, 01:30 PM)

Sod left foot braking.  Can't do it.

Practice makes perfect.

It's a very useful technique for rallying, but it does take some getting used to. Your left foot just isn't as sensitive at the start, but you can get it right... eventually.

I had to, because I rallied SAABs, where the handbrake is on the front wheels. Others did handbrake turns, I had to use my left foot

Forgot to mention that I don't use the left foot in my current car. But for some reason I do when I drive automatics. Just a bad habit that I picked up somewhere

Its quiite amazing (well amazes me at least) how the power for accelaration is still instantly there when you use left foot braking.

QUOTE (dave5282 @ Mar 17 2004, 02:24 PM)

Its quiite amazing (well amazes me at least) how the power for accelaration is still instantly there when you use left foot braking.

I used it mainly for destabalising the car on an approach to a tight corner, combined with the pendulum effect. The necessity was to keep the power down at the front, while intentionally losing grip at the back.

As you said it avoids dropping in the revs (especially important when you have a turbo, which I didn't).

It is essentially a FWD technique (developped by the Swedes IIRC), and I know that it works in 4WD cars, but I don't think that it works in RWD?

I think it's called a scandinavian flick, though I may be thinking of something else.

It's very much used on rwd cars, especially for drifting I think for initiating a feint drift.

QUOTE (hachi-roku @ Mar 18 2004, 02:25 PM)

I think it's called a scandinavian flick, though I may be thinking of something else. It's very much used on rwd cars, especially for drifting I think for initiating a feint drift.

Left foot braking theoretically should have no effect on RWD cars. There you need to give a boot of the accelerator.

left foot braking as far as i knew was an FF car technique as it allowed the rear to lose traction. its a decent tech imo tho, i think it originated from some rally driver, not 100% sure tho.
And yannick as you said in a post before that on an auto u tend to use ur left foot to brake, i do the exact same thing, heh.

-Z

I believe that a Scandi' flick is where you sharply turn the wheel slightly to one side, destabilising the car, then snap it back the other way before the car has a chance to settle, resulting in serious weight transferral from one side of the car to the other, getting it sideways.

I've never had much cause for it on the public road, as I find a bit of power oversteer is perfectly adequate in the '2!

AS my gearbox is shagged on my car I find I double declutch a lot to get smooth changes.. also the throttle blip sounds sooooooo nice with the roof off

I've had a new gearbox since last summer just not got around to fitting it with the "other problems" I've been having

Incidently as far as I know Scandinavian flick, and "pendulum effect". are the same thing with a different name... works very effectively with a long wheelbase RWD car .. its how I smacked a wheel into one of my arches with the sudden body roll tho

I only toe to heal for hill starts when I'm too lazy to use the handbrake, or "power boosting", putting the engine under load to get the turbos up to boost before you launch -very effective unless you over cook it.. then you just spin your wheels and look like a plonker!

Its true but combine a bit of this and a bit of that and it all comes together... 9" wide rear rims need persuasion to break away

since I was 17 I have only had RWD cars. recently I have got into my runaround (probe) which is hardly a benchmark of FWD excellence.. I hate it FWD feels so numb and lifeless compared to RWD!! its a totally different style and I'll confess I cannot drive it to save my life!!

Its just so wrong.

Unfortunately we are in teh "FWD generation" now. these days it seems next to no one can handlea RWD car, thats why MR2's have been branded "dangerous" becasue idiots get into them and wonder why the back overtakes the front!!

my next goal is mid engined RWD (even tho I breifly had an MR2 a couple of years back it never got used and was soon sold, was mainly bought to sell) I also prefer a but more bulk to a car.. don't ask why I just do.. just need something big, jap, mid engined and RWD

How DID you guess



I must admit I used to drive an MG metro. its was a horrid little rover box.. it had no grip at all, zero roadholding...
However it is still to this day one of the most fun cars to chuck about and genrally thrash around... maybe part of that is you know if you wrote it off its only £250, but you could happily throw it into a 4 wheel drift, and always somehow come out of it, very forgiving to drive.. was totally different to my previous austin metro, even tho it was essentially the same car. (complete with big MG graphics. )

People usually laugh when
I say it was a fun car.. but hey

My first car was my 86... picked because it's RWD... I had to drive a corsa as a courtesy car... my god they are soooooo boring.

I have friends who have FWD cars, they drive like hooligans, if I drive like that in a rwd car I will be seriously punished for it, far less forgiving, and FAAAR more fun


All personal opinion though, all have their benifits

Ye I also double declutch everytime I kick down, just a major good habit ive got. It always feels great when you down shift and match the revs perfectly to the gearing...super smooth engagement..zero lurch. Its an art for deffo and easy to master...all you have to do is know what revs a gear would produce relative to the mph. You will naturally figure it out to a T.
I cringe sooooo bad when I ride passenger in m8s cars and see em kick down and feel thier cars lurch majorly. Only one other m8 has started doing double declutching after I showed him how easy it is. The rest are just cr@p heh.

My Wifes Micra (02) reg is awful from 3rd to 2nd I always DD Clutch. I had to learn when Minis had no syncro on 1st, and needed to ram it in for a quick get away (Ok not so quick in an 850 cc Mk 1)

Still do it regularly in the Camry, makes for a great escape from those Red Baemers!

FWD is still a great laugh especially with left foot breaking+accel on at the same time to induce oversteer. Best example is the new mini its such a fun car. I thrashed the basic mini 1(m8s company car lol) and was amazed at the handling of the damn thing. Handled brilliantly in the wey too twas great!
FWD is still cool imo as long as its the right type of car.

im gonna add a bit of controvosy here....

People are getting mixed up between whatever double-declutching is(american term) and what "matching the revs" or "matching the gears" is over here.
Motorcyclists as mentioned should do it in order to stop the rear overtaking the from and thus causing the dreaded rear wheel lock...the blipping you hear isnt necessary, but some people argue it makes the gears go in easier (thats why racers do it).
For the road tho, on any advanced (and upwards) course you should (and will be by the end) "match the gears/revs".
Its dead simple, but not many people do it and basically best to practice at 30mph in 4th gear.
Clutch in, select 3rd.
KEEP UP REVS
Clutch out.
When you get NO juddering and NO body movement of the vehicle (car or bike) then your getting there.
Now do it 4th to 2nd. Keep practicing. - til your mint at it!
Now practice at higher speeds and make it part of your everyday driving.
The amount of people who just change down and the gears automatically shoot up is very very high. By learning this matching the revs lark, your kinder to your car, but more importantly its a safe way of matching engine speed to road speed without locking the wheels, skidding etc etc.

Cheers

Adam

ahhh! i stand corrected (i'll blame it on just gettin up!)

ahhh! i stand corrected (i'll blame it on just gettin up!)

Doublt declutching is when you shift into neutral between gears and drop the clutch, before pressing it again to select the next gear.
The throttle blip is to get it all spinning up for a quicker take up on selecting teh next gear.

your talkign about matching the revs... which involves, er, chaning gear and keepign teh revs right (something I thought was part of everyday driving?)

Charlie,

as far as I understood Adam's post, it's the same thing. But I could be wrong