Hello every boddy

As us 4.3 petrol Ravvers know, our friend Mr Darling( ) wants more money from us as of next year....

SOOO I have been thinking of going to my local Mr T and saying ehm...hello there anychance of giving you this Rav back and getting a diesel one?

Now before I do this I want to make sure that it would be worth it in the long run.....

So here's a few questions for you....

1. If I only do short distances ie driving round town and going to work - would there be a significant milage difference between the petrol and diesel or is this only apparent when doing longer milage?

2. Being realistic what milage could one expect from the diesel...by the way I'm not talking about the mighty T180... wont be able to stretch the budget for that one....

3. Is the servicing more expensive in comparison to the petrol engine?

4. Is the diesel engine belt or chain driven?

So think thats about it...

Now I know you guys like a little banter when it comes to the petrol/diesel 3 or 5 door debates... but could I ask that we could remain serious .... well at least until me questions have been answered....


cheers guys

regards
Rob

Hmmmmmm

Serious? Here?

1. Short runs - I suppose if you want to be towing someone elses diesel that the DMF has collapsed on, then getting another diesel would seem fitting. Then of course short journeys will shorten the life of the clutch (same with petrol of course) so find out the cost of replacing on each machine. On top of this, you have the DMF mechanism to think about. On fuel cost, there won't be much difference, and on mpg, I doubt much there either. depends on how you drive dunnit?
2. A dieselly engine should be good for 200k miles, but you won't keep it that long. I was looking at a Ford common rail diesel engine yesterday with a fault and the engine was some mess. Faulty injectors and basically a bit of high value scrap metal.
3. I suppose theres a little more to go wrong - not least on the fuel side - water in fuel or air in fuel lines. Fuel filter. And is it the diesel version that needs a bonnet vent cos the engine overheats?
4. Chain driven I think from previous posts - but of course these things are strong - I mean how many chains break on motorbikes; or come off the cogs on pushbikes

Thought ye cannae buy 3 doors any mair?

Then theres the additional cost of buying a diesel car v the road tax saving. And this government has only another 3 years to run - so everything is a gamble.

The cheapest is to switch to propane, and get an LPG tank in the back garden. The cost per litre drops to less than 10p I believe. For heating yer greenhouse of course! Red diesel is about, although its rough stuff. Haven't heard of red propane (other than in a big red can)

Rob,

Please can I suggest that you sit down and do some calculations and let the maths answer your questions not your heart.

I would say that if you are doing less than 10,000 miles a year, you will never recover your money.

Work out how much petrol you are buying in a year for your mileage, than calculate how much diesel you would use, remembering that diesel is 8 to 10p dearer than petrol. I would suggest for the diesel calculation that you use the quoted URBAN fuel consumption figure to give you a worst case.

It would be my estimate that you would save £500 / year in fuel cost (for 10000 miles / year).

Than consider how much you are going to lose trading in Big Red because the dealer is going to come out with the usual nonsense of no demand for petrols etc..

I would suggest to you that it will take you a very long time, maybe ten years or more, to recover the cost of changing to a diesel from the money you save in fuel and (slightly) cheaper tax.

You have to ask yourself would you keep a diesel that long in order to recover your money?

My advise would be to grim and bear the extra costs that come with the petrol and enjoy your RAV!

As a starter, ignoring all the other points you ask about, I bet the trade-in value offered will have dropped for the very reason that prompted you to ask the question. and it isn't just 4.3 owners - 4.2 as well!!

The reality of it is that the road fund licence is only a small cost of the cost of ownership of your car, so this should be a fair bit down on the list of reasons to go one way or the other.

FWIW, I have 4.2 Petrol (bought 2nd hand) and for a long time since buying it have thought I should have gone with the diesel, as I would have spent less money overall in the time I will have owned the car. But to now change it and buy the same car with a diesel engine, with the dealers wanting profit from the used car trading in, plus profit from the car they will be selling you, it is too late and any savings in fuel and RFL will take longer then you are likely to own the car.

Reckon you should enjoy what you have until you want a change and then weigh up which way to go then.

Hi Nightstalker

I think you know bothy well enough by now. He was no doubt drinking harmful substances during the night and his post could well have been written by his forehead rolling about on the keyboard He is right about the Ford though, even the new ones are causing major headaches.

I tend to agree with the others. The diesel is cheaper to run fuel wise but not nearly enough to offset the paste-ing you will get by trading yours for a similar RAV. If you are very lucky you might sell it privately then trawl the Toyota second hand car website to locate a good value one - they vary by a huge amount.

The diesel goes really well but is noisier. I can't see the servicing being any different - I think mine was priced at £155 for a minor and £210 for a major which alternate. Anything like brake fluid or cabin filters are extra which is why I do my own.

The diesel engine has chain driven cam shafts and it seems that there is potential for;

Sump leaks
Gearbox input shaft leaks
We know nothing of the DMF yet but it has one so even if the failure rate is down to statistics rather than a known problem there is a small risk. Bothy can make reasonable sense even when he is unconcious!

To my knowledge, althought the petrol has all the usual emmission systems that can statistically present a small risk, it has no DMF, no timing belt and a well proven engine and box.

It doesn't make a good argument to be so discouraged by the difference in an annual relatively small difference in RFL.

I rest my case yer 'onour.

Regards

AS Fujisan says you really have to sit down and consider all costs.
By coincidence, the guy who answers motoring questions in Saturday's Daily Telelgraph ("Honest" John)
answered a very similar question only last week. I have copied the question and the answer below.

Also, I note that the new price of a Rav XT3 petrol (manual) is £19105 on the road whilst a new RAV XT3 diesel is £20355 on the road (per Toyota price list).
Therefore I assume this differential will be maintained in second hand values irrespective of age.

When I looked around for mine in January used petrol models ( 2 or 3 years old) were noticeably cheaper than diesel.

If and when I change mine I'll almost certainly go for petrol again - even thought by that stage a diesel auto will be available. Like you I'm on short runs and less than 10k miles per annum so just can't see diesel being worth it.

Good luck.

Daily Telegraph Saturday 19th April :-

Q.
I have a base-spec Toyota Celica 1.8 VVTi. I love it, even though it is underpowered, but I'm starting to accumulate bigger mileages and suspect I ought to buy a diesel for reasons of economy. Most are out of my price range (I like to buy cars at three years old and keep them for another three). Having spent ages looking, I think my sole option would be a Mazda6 2.0 diesel. I'd prefer a Mazda3, but couldn't really afford one.
Louise, via email

A.
I'm getting so many reports of failed dual mass flywheels/ clutches, injection pumps, injectors, turbos, intercoolers and exhaust gas recirculation valves on diesels that I'm starting to wonder if overall running costs might actually be cheaper for petrol-engined cars. There are plenty that return 35-40mpg and they are usually about 15 per cent cheaper than diesel counterparts of similar age. I'd rethink on that basis.

Still waiting for bothy to bite. Wonder if I got away with it or he is planning to chin me next week!

[quote name='anchorman' post='746352' date='Apr 24 2008, 09:37 PM']Still waiting for bothy to bite. Wonder if I got away with it or he is planning to chin me next week![/quote]
Ahm jist biding ma time - - - - - -

dis yer new RAV 4.3 run oan red diesel cos thats aw yer be gettin next week when the strike hits....

Oh don't bothy.

It just compounds my feelings of just how rank this country has become.

Most of the roads in Derbyshire have 50, 40 and even 30mph speed limits on them because professional rally drivers in Subarus and Mitsubishis can't get around without hitting a tree and the do gooders of this world blame it on the speed limits being too high. It means a trip to London is getting to the stage that I will need to book hotels at various stages along the way or risk funding the polis Christmas ball and having embelishments on my license for which I have to pay.

Yesterday I got a letter from the Halifax telling me that what I had left of the interest on my savings after they had deducted tax from the money I had already paid tax on.

Still I suppose I should be grateful. I notice the fuel which has gone up by at least a penny for the last I don't know how many weeks went down by 1p today at the local garage and darling Alistair says he won't put any extra duty on fuel before October. However, I won't be able to buy any of the 1p cheaper diesel because it won't be available because of a strike.

Oh joy.

It's all a conspiracy by the supermarkets to drive every shop and fuel station out of business, but themselves.
Here, the price of a loaf is £1.20+. The raw material cost (wheat etc) is 20p.
Whisky is now around £20 a litre. The raw material cost is more like 20p.
Taxes, under whatever name, account for almost 70% of income. Even when you've worked to get a pension, it still gets taxed - and of course you pay all the other taxes.

Little wonder so many Brits are going abroad - Cyprus taxes pension income at 5% so I read. And their cars last decades cos of the weather.

Then we read stories like : [url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24296879/"]Petrol station fuel pump accuracy[/url]

Anyone know the going rate to build a roundabout?? Here in Lanarkshire, its £1,000,000 !! I'd assume about £10k for materials and the rest???

Bout time us consumers started taking more notice of whats going on and act!! Get yer moneys-worth....drive a Caterpillar earthmoving machine along yer local A class road - club together and buy a tank and drive it around the Council car park. Start a Community RoadWatch scheme and demolish road humps -
Cumoan - must be more of you with ideas?

Every Friday night (when not working) I go around to my mate and we put the world to rights while drinking 1 tin of beer (hey its Friday). Trouble is there is too much stuff on the agenda to get through it all.

Why does a 10k island cost £1m? Because the other 900k goes in feasibility studies, consultants fees (when all a consultant does is borrow your watch then tell you the time) and pocket lining for as many folk who can claim to be the least bit eligable.

Now look, my eye is twitching again..................

why not just dump lpg in it?

[quote name='bitman' post='746469' date='Apr 25 2008, 11:01 AM']why not just dump lpg in it?[/quote]

As soon as everybody starts using lpg the price will be loaded with duty to the current fuel prices. It would be OK loading fuel with duty if there was a proper integrated public transport system so that everybody could access some form of transport at a fair price. Instead the money goes to other things (keep me away from that).

How do they approach all the rail problems at the moment? They (the government) charge people more to travel in rush hour to encourage them to travel off peak. It saves money on new or longer trains but doesn't really help those that have to travel in rush hour.

Nothing will change while we all agree to pay the loaded fuel prices because having a clogged road system generates so much revenue.

Green Government my ear.

Wur brother in France was saying the TGV takes 3 hours to travel 800kms. Seems fast. Not only that but if the UK had a decent rail network, we wouldn't need so many bldng flights.
Thus we wouldn't need another runway at Heathrow, and could probably do away with 2 of the airports in Central Scotland. Why on earth do we need airports at manchester and Birmingham? And all the other places nearby - Liverpool? East Midlands?
If the trains run on time, its faster to get by rail from London to Paris init?

With decent motorways, those that want to drive fast could.
etc etc etc
How have Italy and germany managed to get such good motorways? And France such a good train service?

Time to riot!! (oooooopps - this'll be monitored by more civil servants on unreceipted expenses!)

[quote name='bothwell_buyer' post='746523' date='Apr 25 2008, 02:35 PM']Wur brother in France was saying the TGV takes 3 hours to travel 800kms. Seems fast. Not only that but if the UK had a decent rail network, we wouldn't need so many bldng flights.
Thus we wouldn't need another runway at Heathrow, and could probably do away with 2 of the airports in Central Scotland. Why on earth do we need airports at manchester and Birmingham? And all the other places nearby - Liverpool? East Midlands?
If the trains run on time, its faster to get by rail from London to Paris init?

With decent motorways, those that want to drive fast could.
etc etc etc
How have Italy and germany managed to get such good motorways? And France such a good train service?

Time to riot!! (oooooopps - this'll be monitored by more civil servants on unreceipted expenses!) [/quote]
I pronounce you a Fellow of the grumpy old sod club!

Welcome on board and don't worry about the civil servants, they'll be busy discussing fixtures and fittings for their London penthouse with consultant interior designers.

[quote name='anchorman' post='746586' date='Apr 25 2008, 06:24 PM'][quote name='bothwell_buyer' post='746523' date='Apr 25 2008, 02:35 PM']Wur brother in France was saying the TGV takes 3 hours to travel 800kms. Seems fast. Not only that but if the UK had a decent rail network, we wouldn't need so many bldng flights.
Thus we wouldn't need another runway at Heathrow, and could probably do away with 2 of the airports in Central Scotland. Why on earth do we need airports at manchester and Birmingham? And all the other places nearby - Liverpool? East Midlands?
If the trains run on time, its faster to get by rail from London to Paris init?

With decent motorways, those that want to drive fast could.
etc etc etc
How have Italy and germany managed to get such good motorways? And France such a good train service?

Time to riot!! (oooooopps - this'll be monitored by more civil servants on unreceipted expenses!) [/quote]
I pronounce you a Fellow of the grumpy old sod club!

Welcome on board and don't worry about the civil servants, they'll be busy discussing fixtures and fittings for their London penthouse with consultant interior designers.
[/quote]

Hey, welcome to the club, see link.

[url="http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/index.asp"]http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/index.asp[/url]

Can I join too? - I like that site

Its a well known fact that the Scots invented England to get rid of all the moaners and so on.

However, we seem to have been lax in allowing a moron to take control of our refinery, and an English moron of a Union leader to take advantage.

The result tonight?

At my local petrol station, no diesel was available - not even for the Police who rolled up in a diesel minibus. I. of course, offered them a swap with my LPG minibus. Nice gesture. I'll phone them tomorrow to offer my vehicles services! LPG is not a problem. However there is NO diesel in the East of Glasgow at all.
The police told me they had trawled all of the east side stations and no diesel was available - so much for the arrangements for emergency services = NONE

Diesel is obviously a short supply commodity, what with lorries etc using so much. Our beloved political 1st meenister assures us that imports will be here next week. Lets hope nothing major happens in the meantime whilst SNP; Labour and the Unions and the owners position themselves.....
And of course the fuel prices have gone up - even for LPG!

Course you can. Just start grumbling. I didn't know that club existed but I like it too - cheers Dave!

Petrol v diesel?

Not in Scotland!

You'll be lucky to find any diesel today!!!

[quote name='bothwell_buyer' post='746775' date='Apr 26 2008, 11:24 AM']Petrol v diesel?

Not in Scotland!

You'll be lucky to find any diesel today!!![/quote]

Just filled up in Longridge / Ribble Valley / Lancashire, now that is a long way to go for a tank of diesel

the Good News: Needed a gallon of petrol for the lawnmower and went to the first garage on the way to Homebase - no queues, no supply problems

the Bad News: The cap doesn't seem to fit properly AND the can fell over at some time.... car now stinks of petrol and loadspace carpet soaked

[quote name='Hoovie' post='746931' date='Apr 26 2008, 08:26 PM']the Bad News: The cap doesn't seem to fit properly AND the can fell over at some time.... car now stinks of petrol and loadspace carpet soaked [/quote]

That's bad Hoovie that smell will take ages to get rid off maybe never!!!!!

We have loads of fuel down here...the only problem is it costs so bloody much....Greedy buggers... as said before...Turpin had a mask...

Out this evening and young guy asked me at a Shell station what was in the red pump.
I tried to find out what he meant as there is no red pump.
After the fourth attempt, I realised he meant the V-power pump. He asked if it would work in his petrol car - so I said probably. "It is a little more expensive" I advised and then turned away to smile. I'd just filled the minibus with propane - 62 litres of it for less than £34!