Winter Tyres

[webleymk3]

Is it a bad idea to put different winter tyres on the front than the back? I know across one axle you should use the same tyre and tread etc but what about back to front???

Cheers

Weblers

[webleymk3]

Suddenly it all goes quiet... any thoughts??

[Parts-King]

Suddenly it all goes quiet... any thoughts??

As in just different brands?

[*srjp*]

Not recommended, but then what ever is? ;-)

The view is that they should all be the same on a 4wd vehicle as if not one axle might get better traction than the other, causing instability.

You'd be in a similar position with a pair of part worn and a pair of brand new even if the same tread pattern and then the question is which to put on the front and which on the back? On that, I favour newer snow tyres on the rear so that when braking downhill the rear should get better grip and not try to overtake the front. Engine weight at the front is some compensation anyway. However the issue is very divided amongst locals (French alps) and my local tyre guy doesn't take sides.

[MarsKy]

The view is that they should all be the same on a 4wd vehicle as if not one axle might get better traction than the other, causing instability.

+1

Been pondering a kind-of-similar question: how can a skinnier, smaller, space-saver tyre be road legal, given that it must skew the stability of the car somewhat?

[webleymk3]

Suddenly it all goes quiet... any thoughts??

As in just different brands?

Yeah. A pair of say Nokians on the front and Wintracs at the back for example????

Not recommended, but then what ever is? ;-)

The view is that they should all be the same on a 4wd vehicle as if not one axle might get better traction than the other, causing instability.

You'd be in a similar position with a pair of part worn and a pair of brand new even if the same tread pattern and then the question is which to put on the front and which on the back? On that, I favour newer snow tyres on the rear so that when braking downhill the rear should get better grip and not try to overtake the front. Engine weight at the front is some compensation anyway. However the issue is very divided amongst locals (French alps) and my local tyre guy doesn't take sides.

So here's the deal... i can't afford new so a with bit of hunting i've come across 2 pairs (different manufactures) of decent second hand tyres each with about 4.5-5mm tread on them. Price is reasonable I think (total is about £170 for the four). Is this a bad idea? I appreciate they are not brand new with 8mm tread however the wallet is dictating this, not my wish list!

I notice benxt5 comment above saying he is at 4mm and he considers them to be on their last legs... is 4-5mm tread really representative of tyres being finished??? My existing are about that too and simply cannot afford new normals as well as winters so my compromise is this.. preserve the existing for when it warms up and run these over the winter....

Thoughts...

Cheers

[*srjp*]

Anything under 4mm on a snow tyre is useless, although you could run them into the ground the following summer.

I picked up a pair of Pirelli Scorpion ICE+SNOW (snowflake) with 5mm on UK eBay for 55quid delivered last year. Had to bin them already after five months but they were a bargain so no harm done. Guess that kind of thing might be rarer after last winter's events.

Also, on the axle point - just remembered that a couple of years ago I ran a Shogun with snow tyres on the rear and normal (M+S) tyres on the front. I can't really recommend it as it was a little scary when you put your foot down and the rear started to push the vehicle forward but the steering did nothing at all!

[MarsKy]

So here's the deal... i can't afford new so a with bit of hunting i've come across 2 pairs (different manufactures) of decent second hand tyres each with about 4.5-5mm tread on them. Price is reasonable I think (total is about £170 for the four). Is this a bad idea? I appreciate they are not brand new with 8mm tread however the wallet is dictating this, not my wish list!

I notice benxt5 comment above saying he is at 4mm and he considers them to be on their last legs... is 4-5mm tread really representative of tyres being finished??? My existing are about that too and simply cannot afford new normals as well as winters so my compromise is this.. preserve the existing for when it warms up and run these over the winter....

Thoughts...

Cheers

They say (who are they?) to change winter tyres around 3-4mm. And I think 4mm is the legal limit for winter tyres in some countries too. There were loads of 4mm winter tyres on eBay for BMWs, and a bidding frenzy for them. But they had had their useful life worn out of them and sold-on by those in the know; and those who didn't know any better were bidding for tyres with their best days gone.

In winter, would you be better off with 4-5mm tread winter tyres - albeit different makes on different axles - than 4mm OEM tyres? I've sat for an age thinking about it, but I honestly don't know. There's no way of knowing until you find out how the RAV will balance up with the different tyres on the different axles (they could make things worse).

See me, useless.

[webleymk3]

Anything under 4mm on a snow tyre is useless, although you could run them into the ground the following summer.

I picked up a pair of Pirelli Scorpion ICE+SNOW (snowflake) with 5mm on UK eBay for 55quid delivered last year. Had to bin them already after five months but they were a bargain so no harm done. Guess that kind of thing might be rarer after last winter's events.

Also, on the axle point - just remembered that a couple of years ago I ran a Shogun with snow tyres on the rear and normal (M+S) tyres on the front. I can't really recommend it as it was a little scary when you put your foot down and the rear started to push the vehicle forward but the steering did nothing at all!

But these aren't snow tyres, their winter tyres. Am i nit right in saying the emphasis is on compund over tread, although i appreciate when the snow arrives the tread is important....

I guess i'm looking at my current situation which tells me the 4 G91s I am running are at 3-4mm which in winter will be bad enough but in snow they'll be useless. this could be a good compromise to see me through. if they are 5mm they should hopefully survive the snow better than the G91s.

And whilst they are different treads they are all around the 5mm mark. I'd double check and probably put the better ones at the rear and allow the weight of the engine to help the front dig in.

Hmmmm. unless someone can truely convince me of a reason why i really must must not, i think this is what i will do...

[Parts-King]

Too many people confuse winter tyres with mud and snow tyres, they are not the same thing

Winter tyres are good for stopping your car sooner when temperatures drop to 7 degress or less. They are good for dry/wet/slushy/snowy/icey roads, NOT JUST snow

The problem with buying any used tyres, and particularly a winter tyre, is that you have no idea of its previous history, you could be buying a used tyre, with very little "Useable" tread which might have bounced off any pothole or curb that got in its way. I know needs must when you are on a budget but good all year tyres will be better than winter tyres with no useable tread and with a possible dodgy history

Kingo

[*srjp*]

Sure it's not a direct comparison between two snowflake brands it was just an example that it does make a difference. I'd previously done a winter just on the chunky M+S tyres and although the rear would slip out a lot it did feel more predictable having the same degree of handling at each corner.

The Continental WinterContact (snowflake) were a much smoother tyre, more SUV style than the off-road 'square' M+S ones on the front (can't remember what they were, came with the car) so there was a difference in compound, tread and shape...

As I understand it, the 4 / 5mm rules are based on European snowfall which can last months, and then the stuff in the USA is even more dramatic. I guess it depends where in the UK you are whether or not you need that much. Scotland got more snow than the French alps last year, but would the odd day in Plymouth require that much tread, or even a snowflake symbol?

Incidentally, it might be worth searching for different tyre sizes (within the limits of your rims)- if every Rav comes with 235 on a 16" you're looking at a lot of competition on eBay etc so try a 215 etc etc.

[webleymk3]

Too many people confuse winter tyres with mud and snow tyres, they are not the same thing

Winter tyres are good for stopping your car sooner when temperatures drop to 7 degress or less. They are good for dry/wet/slushy/snowy/icey roads, NOT JUST snow

The problem with buying any used tyres, and particularly a winter tyre, is that you have no idea of its previous history, you could be buying a used tyre, with very little "Useable" tread which might have bounced off any pothole or curb that got in its way. I know needs must when you are on a budget but good all year tyres will be better than winter tyres with no useable tread and with a possible dodgy history

Kingo

Good point about the history... you really have no idea...

hmmmmmmmm......

[CharlieFarlie]

One thing is for sure either the suppliers (Performance alloys ) are extremely busy or simply cannot be bothered to sell Me a set of wheels and tyres !! I'm sick to the back teeth of phoning and being told I will get a call back or an Email confirming price and availability of either Wheels or tyres ....... Resulting in no contact whatsoever /.............

In fact I'm getting very disillusioned with the sodding wheel set up I have and the struggle to free My self from it !!!

Wee Charlie.

[Big Kev]

One thing is for sure either the suppliers (Performance Alloys ) are extremely busy or simply cannot be bothered to sell Me a set of wheels and tyres !! I'm sick to the back teeth of phoning and being told I will get a call back or an Email confirming price and availability of either Wheels or tyres ....... Resulting in no contact whatsoever /.............

In fact I'm getting very disillusioned with the sodding wheel set up I have and the struggle to free My self from it !!!

Wee Charlie.

Personally, I was gobsmacked how well the Bridgestone Runflats (remember them....?)performed in the last two winters' snowfalls, and it is only out of respect for Marsky's input on the improvement that winter tyres make that if current funds allowed, I would have a full set of "Seasonal Tyres and Wheels"...now confused re terminology....winter or snowflake? I literally gave away full set of perfectly good Pirelli Scorpion M & S Tyres fitted to wife's 3 door....utterly deafening road noise, probably only quietened by Mud and Snow....?

Big Kev

[*srjp*]

M+S means mud and snow as you say; the tread groves are designed to chuck mud and snow out. Otherwise it's a standard tyre, just generally a bit chunkier.

The Snowflake symbol means the above plus different compound of rubber so it works better below 7 degrees Celsius. You'll normally notice small ridges on the blocks of the tread which increase traction. These can be chunky or 'normal' looking tyres as you prefer.

If you're talking to a dealer or buying online use those specific terms because 'winter', 'snow' etc mean different things to different people.

Short summary of it: http://www.wheels.ca/article/177172

And a video:

Watch for the brake comparison and cornering at 25mph.

Go to Austria or Germany during the winter with the wrong type of symbol and you'll face a fine. In France there's no specific rule or dates but people in SUVs have been refused access to mountain roads because the police don't consider them to be adequately equipped with the standard all-season tyres.

p.s. The Pirelli Scorpion Snow+Ice aren't just M+S but snowflake too, you may have had another model: http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/suv/sheet/scorpion_icesnow.html

[webleymk3]

Ok... To make this worse.... we're talking £15-£20 a corner to change the tyres over... so over a year that £120!!!

New post started.. time to find some steel wheels and do it that way!

[*srjp*]

How about this kind of thing, would see you through this winter I hope: http://cgi.ebay.fr/Pirelli-Scorpion-Snow-235-70R16-105T-tyres-x5-and-snow-chains-very-little-use-/120787594838

[webleymk3]

They're 16s tho. I'd need new wheels too!! like them tho...

[NMaria]

I am always a little surprised that people think winter tyres are a necessity. I leave the OEM Geolandars on all year round, have driven (and even towed) on serious snow and ice and never had a problem. I just make sure I have plenty of tread through the winter season. Am I missing something - have other RAV drivers found the original tyres inadequate in winter?

[Davrav]

I am always a little surprised that people think winter tyres are a necessity. I leave the OEM Geolandars on all year round, have driven (and even towed) on serious snow and ice and never had a problem. I just make sure I have plenty of tread through the winter season. Am I missing something - have other RAV drivers found the original tyres inadequate in winter?

My factory fit Geos took me places last winter where no other vehicles had been/could get without any drama.

[Big Kev]

I am always a little surprised that people think winter tyres are a necessity. I leave the OEM Geolandars on all year round, have driven (and even towed) on serious snow and ice and never had a problem. I just make sure I have plenty of tread through the winter season. Am I missing something - have other RAV drivers found the original tyres inadequate in winter?

My factory fit Geos took me places last winter where no other vehicles had been/could get without any drama.

You sound like The Starship Enterprise there Dee....

What a name ,eh...? William Shatner....so she did exactly the same back to him....

Trekky Kev

[Davrav]

I am always a little surprised that people think winter tyres are a necessity. I leave the OEM Geolandars on all year round, have driven (and even towed) on serious snow and ice and never had a problem. I just make sure I have plenty of tread through the winter season. Am I missing something - have other RAV drivers found the original tyres inadequate in winter?

My factory fit Geos took me places last winter where no other vehicles had been/could get without any drama.

You sound like The Starship Enterprise there Dee....

What a name ,eh...? William Shatner....so she did exactly the same back to him....

Trekky Kev

Yeah, and we were singing this at the time:

[lovegroove]

I just purchased some Michelin Latitude Tour HP 235/60/R16 tyres by accident as I thought they were winter tyres because that's what I selected on the search criteria on the website. Will these do OK in the snow or should I try and cancel and get some proper winter tyres. I live in the French Alps where we get a lot of snow, but they generally keep the roads clear. I coped last winter with no problems with just my summer tyres, but it was quite a mild winter and am worried that I may struggle this year if it's a harsh winter.

[MarsKy]

They're not winter tyres. And if that's what you need/ want, then contact your supplier asap.

Aren't winter tyres mandatory in the Alps?

[lovegroove]

No, they're not compulsory in France. There's a couple of roads around that they sometimes stop you and only let you proceed if you have winter tyres, but it has to be pretty bad snow for that.