Does A Forum Put You Off Buying A Vehicle?

[Hoovie]

There seems to be a lot of negativity around at the moment on some Toyota products, not helped by constant spurious comments by some people who portray to have knowledge of specific subjects but have not demonstrated any actual evidence of this, but seem to have a pet subject that they are like a dog with a bone with.

If you go to forums to find out about a vehicle, that is a good idea, but to base a decision on whether to buy that vehicle solely on the experiences of a few negative comments would mean that you will be buying NOTHING ever, as there is not a car out there which does not have SOME kind of history of problems with some owners.

I can only go on my own experience....

I bought a RAV4.2 Petrol 2.0VVTi and AFTER I bought that vehicle, I joined TOC. I read various posts about various things and mostly concentrated on info on the 4.2 model .... the SCV valves and the DMF seemed to be the two hot topics on the RAV4.2.

Not heard of the DMF issue before so did some more research and found it was a big issue on many many vehicles of all types and to me, as an non-mechanically minded person, thought it was something to watch out for - and after reading peoples experiences here I decided I was happy that I had the Petrol and not the Diesel - and futhermore, I doubt I would ever buy a Toyota with that particular 2.0 D-4D engine as the occurrences were too common AND expensive to rectify it would seem. I would at the same time avoid any other make & model of vehicle where the DMF had been reported as a likely early-life failure

When I bought another RAV - this time the RAV4.3 2.2D-Cat engined model, I checked in more detail as I knew there was a bit of a history with some 2.2D engines failing.

It was clear that this varies from the DMF situation in that there was a recognition from Toyota of a fault and a comprehensive program in place to rectify on failure.

Also, whereas on the DMF there was a significant cost, often borne by the owner, to replace the DMF, I had not - and still have not - seen any posts where the owner has been asked to pay for the replacement engine (if there has been, then I am sure someone will point that out to me!). Yes, it would be inconvenient, but so is any problem on any vehicle.

But before I bought the RAV4.3, I still checked for any reports of DMF problems reported on it, both on TOC and wider as that was my main concern with the diesel (and I did exactly the same on the Qashqai I had in between the RAV4s)

Additionally, I have seen examples of TOC Members who have had a RAV4.3 2.2D engined car and have bought another and sometimes a third even thought they will be in full awareness of the apparent massive flaw (as some people seem to think) in this unit.

And the knowledge and experience of some of these Serial RAV4 buyers is such that if they think the car is good enough to re-purchase, I for one, take that as a very solid vote of confidence in the product, and totally wipes out the ramblings of some other individuals (when it comes to the credibility of information posted, sorry, but not all TOC Members are created equal).

Is the Product Perfect? No chance and I am irritated by a few things on mine, but NO product is perfect.

Should you let negative comments about a Product put you off? Well, they are worth reading for sure and following up to see how widespread something really is (like the DMF for example), but you should make up your own mind,taking into account reports and posts on forums like this but also using common sense!!

Oh, and on standard fuel v supermarket fuel v 'V-Pwer' type fuel, quite simply think of it as Food for your car!

If you don't really care what you eat, then go ahead and buy Tesco Value Chicken pumped full of additives and water and good health to you. But if you have respect for your body, do you not buy a decent brand that tastes better and was produced to more exacting standards?

Why should your car be any different to what it 'eats'? You expect your car to have a long life, treat it with respect!

Anyway, rant over.

[jedi134]

The 4.3 diesel has Obvious problems........this is why the forums are here...........The people with knowlegde will look on forums for these specific faults............I do it all the time, and it has saved my an absolute fortune.......also staying out of the dealership with vehicles with problems also saves you a lot of money.

I look after:

Rav 4.2 D4D

Landrover TD4 Auto

Volvo S40

VW golf V6 4motion

all of which never see the dealership.......... :D

As for the 2AD if it was me I would not buy one........the core engine is failing, the pistons, A big No No in my book..........I bought a Landrover Freelander instead...and they have a !Removed! reputation. :D

This problem is bigger that the DMF in my book

DMF £1.5K max

2AD engine out of warranty! £ HUGE BUCKS total write off on a potentionaly 10K car

Buts its your £ so you choose!!!

O by the way a Toyota dealership put the wrong oil in Hoovies car.........And you actually pay for that? I can stick the wrong oil in your car for nothing :D

[BeechCustom]

In answer to your question, yes.

I bought a very low mileage 2000my vvt-i Rav4 5dr THEN joined the forum. I had absolutely no prior knowledge of Ravs and I really wanted a diesel simply because of fuel consumption. Howvere, having spent some time looking through various posts I'm glad I didn't end up buying a diesel model 4.2 because of the DMF issue that is well documented on here. Similarly, there seems to be issues with the more recent diesel engines in the 4.3 that is again well documented here. This HAS put me off the idea of buying a diesel Rav in future. How could it not?

[firemac]

Very good post, David & you are absoluely right., there is no such thing as the perfect car. In any event, most people do not apply the same criteria to a car that they would to most other purchases - it isn't a fridge or a washing machine, after all. So many other considerations come into play such as how it rides, whether it handles, acceleration, top speed, image, etc. Many of us buy cars even though we know there is a greater chance of them causing us grief - French & Italian cars would never ever sell otherwise - but they offer something to some people that they put a higher value on. For me, I generally love Italian engines; even the tiddlers in Fiat 500's , Pandas, etc. just have so much brio, character, whatever you want to call it, but the overall ownership experience turns me off these days.

When the cat failed on our RAV a month out of the extended warranty & neither the dealer nor TGB would make any contribution to the cost (despite the dealer having replaced 3 EMS sensors over the previous 6 months without it ever occurring to them that the cat might be the problem), I swore I'd never have another Toyota. However when I sat down in better mood & looked at it logically, we had had 5 Toyotas previously with no problems whatsoever and in reality it was the incompetence of the dealer that was the cause of my annoyance. So, I'll never use that dealer again & I slag them off to everyone any chance I get, but I've bought another RAV since (Toyota no. 6) & I'm very pleased with it.

At the end of the day, we petrolheads buy cars more with our hearts than our heads and therefore logic does not come into it. The opinions of our peers may influence us now & again but not by that much, I reckon.

Jim

[Paulus17]

Good question Dave.

Trouble is though with a forum is that a lot of people join when they have problems and ask for help in getting the problem solved.So a lot of the posts you do read are of those negative type??

But to read of major problems like the DMF failures etc are also a good thing as it does warn a potential buyer of the problem beforehand.So is really then upto them as to what they decide.

I'd never heared of the DMF until i joined this forum,which is the only car related forum i'm on,so although we'd never buy another diesel engined motor,it's also summat else i've learned while on here.

We bought our Rav petrol completely not knowing anything about Ravs,so i joined this forum to learn and get excellent advice for future ref.

Lets see more positive comments in the future

[Hoovie]

At the end of the day, we petrolheads buy cars more with our hearts than our heads and therefore logic does not come into it. The opinions of our peers may influence us now & again but not by that much, I reckon.

Jim

And I think that is why we are willing to put up with glitches and imperfections :) But to a degree, of course. I would love an Alfa, but would never have one unless it was a company car where I could just hand over all responsibility ;)

And as you also point out, the Dealer backup is a key point as well (of which you had a bad experience). My experience of Toyota Dealerships has been on the whole very good and when a problem has occured, it has always been dealt with very well. The Dealer I bought my current RAV4 from is not actually one I would specifically recommend due to a service mistake on the car prior to my purchase, but it was fairly minor and certainly not as bad as experiences from Dealers of other marques, such as the VW dealer who forgot to connect up the front brakes after a brake failure on my Company Car a long time ago, or a funny one recently when we bought a car from the local Land Rover Dealer last Oct/Nov time and they accidentally switched the number plates with an identical car, so the VINs didn't quite match up!

Phil., put you off buying another one and how couldn't it? Did NOT put me off buying another one and why should it?

[jedi134]

I bought the Rav knowing full well of the DMF problem..........looked into possible costs etc, a basic clutch change.....I have heard £600 fitted for a SMF

Did`nt put me off buying one? But I also read later models are not affected as much? apparently? Toyota sorted the DMF problem? Did they?

[firemac]

At the end of the day, we petrolheads buy cars more with our hearts than our heads and therefore logic does not come into it. The opinions of our peers may influence us now & again but not by that much, I reckon.

Jim

And I think that is why we are willing to put up with glitches and imperfections :) But to a degree, of course. I would love an Alfa, but would never have one unless it was a company car where I could just hand over all responsibility ;)

And as you also point out, the Dealer backup is a key point as well (of which you had a bad experience). My experience of Toyota Dealerships has been on the whole very good and when a problem has occured, it has always been dealt with very well. The Dealer I bought my current RAV4 from is not actually one I would specifically recommend due to a service mistake on the car prior to my purchase, but it was fairly minor and certainly not as bad as experiences from Dealers of other marques, such as the VW dealer who forgot to connect up the front brakes after a brake failure on my Company Car a long time ago, or a funny one recently when we bought a car from the local Land Rover Dealer last Oct/Nov time and they accidentally switched the number plates with an identical car, so the VINs didn't quite match up!

Phil., put you off buying another one and how couldn't it? Did NOT put me off buying another one and why should it?

[firemac]

At the end of the day, we petrolheads buy cars more with our hearts than our heads and therefore logic does not come into it. The opinions of our peers may influence us now & again but not by that much, I reckon.

Jim

And I think that is why we are willing to put up with glitches and imperfections :) But to a degree, of course. I would love an Alfa, but would never have one unless it was a company car where I could just hand over all responsibility ;)

And as you also point out, the Dealer backup is a key point as well (of which you had a bad experience). My experience of Toyota Dealerships has been on the whole very good and when a problem has occured, it has always been dealt with very well. The Dealer I bought my current RAV4 from is not actually one I would specifically recommend due to a service mistake on the car prior to my purchase, but it was fairly minor and certainly not as bad as experiences from Dealers of other marques, such as the VW dealer who forgot to connect up the front brakes after a brake failure on my Company Car a long time ago, or a funny one recently when we bought a car from the local Land Rover Dealer last Oct/Nov time and they accidentally switched the number plates with an identical car, so the VINs didn't quite match up!

Phil., put you off buying another one and how couldn't it? Did NOT put me off buying another one and why should it?

I agree, David, an Alfa would be lovely as long as someone else was around to pick up any possible bills!

Re Toyota dealers, all the ones I've dealt with (& it is quite a few all over the country) have been fine bar the one who screwed me on the cat (& he was a TGB service-only outfit, not a franchised dealer). The fact is that people will put up with quite surprising levels of buggeration if they feel that the dealer concerned is doing their best for them/treating them as a valued customer. I love BMW's but some of the dealers I've come across have been totally useless and can't be doing BMW's reputation any good. As far as Audi's are concerned, I'd rather chew my own foot off than have one, because I've never come across an Audi dealer who wasn't a pr1*k - maybe just my bad luck but it does prove the impact that personal prejudice plays in all this. I have no doubt that there are dozens of folks on here who'll tell me I'm wrong.

[Manxrav]

Hoovie excellent post. I would buy another Rav4, but would not buy a diesel Year 2006 to year 2009, basically because of the engine problems they have had.

I asked at my Toyota dealer last week if they have had to do any replacement 2Ad engines on island and believe it or not they have only done 2 and they were on the Avensis. ( same engine)

I would always go on Owners Forums to research the pros and cons.

Regards Clare

[Scorpion-gb]

Well, I did some research before buying my Rav 4 .2 and the only major fault that I could find listed was with regard to the dual mass flywheel. I also read how to look for tell tale signs before I bought one. I must admit I was sorely tempted by a Nissan XTrail but the horror stories of numerous blown turbos really put me off!

[Durrrrrr, I've just realised what DMF stands for in the previous posts!]

[dervdave]

Well, I did some research before buying my Rav 4 .2 and the only major fault that I could find listed was with regard to the dual mass flywheel. I also read how to look for tell tale signs before I bought one. I must admit I was sorely tempted by a Nissan XTrail but the horror stories of numerous blown turbos really put me off!

It wasn`t the conrods through the block that put me off a Navara so much as the refusal by Nissan to acknowledge there was a problem with the engines.

One poor lad even started his own site `KnackeredNavara. com` to get some action.

[jedi134]

I would buy another Rav4, but would not buy a diesel Year 2006 to year 2009, basically because of the engine problems they have had.

Regards Clare

:D what can I say :D

So if the later ones are better..... what have they done different? they only drink 3 liters of oil per 10k miles instead of X amount?

[Jamesbelfast]

Most car forums don't reflect the true picture regaridng quality and the possibilty of in-built problems. Yet they give an insight as to what may go wrong and the likely solutions plus possible costs of repair. This may allow the prospective buyer an oversight and the running cost he/she may be faced with in the future.

[CharlieFarlie]

The 4.3 diesel has Obvious problems........this is why the forums are here...........The people with knowlegde will look on forums for these specific faults............I do it all the time, and it has saved my an absolute fortune.......also staying out of the dealership with vehicles with problems also saves you a lot of money.

I look after:

Rav 4.2 D4D

Landrover TD4 Auto

Volvo S40

VW golf V6 4motion

all of which never see the dealership.......... :D

As for the 2AD if it was me I would not buy one........the core engine is failing, the pistons, A big No No in my book..........I bought a Landrover Freelander instead...and they have a !Removed! reputation. :D

This problem is bigger that the DMF in my book

DMF £1.5K max

2AD engine out of warranty! £ HUGE BUCKS total write off on a potentionaly 10K car

Buts its your £ so you choose!!!

O by the way a Toyota dealership put the wrong oil in Hoovies car.........And you actually pay for that? I can stick the wrong oil in your car for nothing :D

So You claim to read Forums for information that will allow You to dodge troublesome cars then Buy a Freelander despite knowing it has a $hit reputation ?????? Strange .......................................

[jedi134]

But true :D

Your just not getting it are yee? :P

[rambler]

The 4.3 diesel has Obvious problems........this is why the forums are here...........The people with knowlegde will look on forums for these specific faults............I do it all the time, and it has saved my an absolute fortune.......also staying out of the dealership with vehicles with problems also saves you a lot of money.

I look after:

Rav 4.2 D4D

Landrover TD4 Auto

Volvo S40

VW golf V6 4motion

all of which never see the dealership.......... :D

As for the 2AD if it was me I would not buy one........the core engine is failing, the pistons, A big No No in my book..........I bought a Landrover Freelander instead...and they have a !Removed! reputation. :D

This problem is bigger that the DMF in my book

DMF £1.5K max

2AD engine out of warranty! £ HUGE BUCKS total write off on a potentionaly 10K car

Buts its your £ so you choose!!!

O by the way a Toyota dealership put the wrong oil in Hoovies car.........And you actually pay for that? I can stick the wrong oil in your car for nothing :D

So You claim to read Forums for information that will allow You to dodge troublesome cars then Buy a Freelander despite knowing it has a $hit reputation ?????? Strange .......................................

A very good friend of mine who used to own a freelander td4 54reg,spent a fortune lifting it,raised air intake,safari Roof Rack with lights..lovely 4x4.....BUT

With other maintenance and costly bits that went wrong....it needed a new engine at ..cost £3000 at what i believe was only 30'000 miles.

He now owns a 05 hilux twin cab,again to which he has again modified it,roof rack,winch bumper.etc etc....now covered 130'000 with very few issues..and that is driven off road almost every weekend...strong as an ox :-)

[jedi134]

O well even they can go wrong :D

Never heard that before, I must have missed that one,

Edit: no I didn't just remembered, that will be because or the oil breather filter no doubt, Landrover are suposed to change it every 20k, but they never do :D. It gets clogged up and causes so much back pressure in the oil system, it blows all the oil seals in the engine, and turbo.

Good old BMW replaced it with a vortex type filter, now it never clogs.

Car forums are great

When I get on my pc I've got a great picture of the problem :D

[bluerav4]

Hi

I recently bought a 2002 Rav 4 d4d. We've had a 2.0 vx without any flaws. After reading all the comments about Tbe D4D thought will look for a car with good history. Found one Xmas last year. The history unbelievable 2 files of invoices for anything and everything all from Toyota. I thought can't go wrong

WRONG only done 800 miles and am so disappointed with it.

What I'm trying to say is at the end of The day forums can be really good as you share experiences and know what to look for. Then on Tbe other hand overall not every owner of a car use forums so it's only a certain percentage. In our case I knew what to look for and looking at the history on the car all had been sorted either through warranty or paid for by previous owner.

At the end of the day a car is a marvellous piece of modern engineering but every thing has its limits before it will go wrong eventually

[cabcurtains]

I would not be put off buying a vehicle due to forum feedback, if i want something i will buy it. I would always use one to allow to me to go into ownership with my eyes open. Some people prefer a head in the sand approach. However i have only ever worked in the motor trade so buying and selling cars is not a major event as i know all the possible scenarios.

[anchorman]

Excellent thread Hoovie.

THere is an element of gloom at the moment but most owners are perfectly happy with their RAVs. To make sweeping statements like faulty piston rings should stop you from buying one is ludicrous. Many engines don't suffer or the owner knows about it and just tops up. I have a mate with a CRV and he was told by the dealer when he bought it to keep checking the oil and expect it to drink oil. Furthermore it has stickers inside the handbook, inside the glovebox and under the bonnet warning so. I know of 6 people that have engines fitted and they no longer use oil and the owners are delighted and have no intentions of selling "because of the unacceptable risk of it happening again". We have one, repeat one example of an engine job that appears to have something wrong (the oil consumption has risen to 1 litre in 350 miles) so we are all to flog our cars (if we can find somebody who will buy it).

There is no doubt that there is a weakness with some early 2AD engines but there is a very acceptable fix and it leaves a very accepatable car with a residual value no worse than any other brand.

I am keeping mine come what may. It is absolutely sweet as a nut, a flying machine, good on fuel, very well equiped, utterly reliable and as good as any comparible brand.

Ok it has the later 2AD but other than that it is no nicer for instance than Kev's SR180 and I would thoroughly recommend one to any new purchaser.

[jedi134]

If there was no truth in this problem, people would not be on here complaining about oil consumption, and they have every right to do so,

I know some cars will drink oil (I have a fix for that) but these engines drink oil, blow head gaskets, clog up eating their own poo!!

I bought a Freelander and on every site they have a bad reputation, you even post a Landrover website of failures, But with proper maintanence they will go on for ever, I love it.

But I would not buy one of the 2AD ravs, maybe the later ones are better, we will see.........Your core bread and butter of the engine, the parts that should last for 250K miles are failing............In my book that is a huge NO NO NO not if you paid me.

Buts thats just me

[CharlieFarlie]

To suggest that most Owners are happy with their cars drinking oil is ludicrous.

As for Honda putting stickers saying the car is expected to burn oil fine.. Perhaps the Honda's can do this without blocking EGRs at best and blowing head gaskets ect at worse but the Ravs cant apparently do it....

I'm not really interested in other makers woes or deficiencies and if they do have them I couldn't care a monkeys. I do however selfish it sounds have a vested interest in My car or cars..

7 out of 22 people have posted engine replacements on the other thread 2 of which are on or about to be on engine number 3 !!!! So we as visitors would not be put off.. And We don't have a problem ??

Most Dealers are replacing engines on a weekly basis some are doing several a week SO WE DO HAVE A PROBLEM !!

I can tell You that the two Members who have had rebuilt or replaced engines replaced again are NOT alone.. Many replaced engines are failing again and that sadly is a fact..

[jedi134]

I would not know as I have a severe allergy to dealerships, but if they are doing 7 a week, then whats in the poll is just a weeks worth, where are the rest of them?

Maybe Toyota get to them 1st before they come onto the forums spreading their sorrows.........

7 a week over say 3 years how manys that? my maths is poor :D

[Daveyonthemove]

I would not know as I have a severe allergy to dealerships, but if they are doing 7 a week, then whats in the poll is just a weeks worth, where are the rest of them?

Maybe Toyota get to them 1st before they come onto the forums spreading their sorrows.........

7 a week over say 3 years how manys that? my maths is poor

1092.

How many are sold over 3 yrs, and what is the percentage of failure?

Put it into perspective. Many people flock to a forum for advice, guidance, a moan or to troll.

The number of members on this forum is probably a small percentage of the amount of owners of a single model under the Toyota Badge, yet the member base covers all models. That means there is a very low percentage of people on here (looking for advice/Guidance etc) complaining about this issue.

So, looking at the big picture, its a PITA for a small number of owners, but Toyota are going beyond their original agreement to the warranty in order to rectify the issue.

I've yet to see any other brand equal this level of service, and that is why people will continue to buy from this brand.