2.2 Cylinder Head Gasket Blown, But No Symptoms?

[flyboy0902]

Hi All,

Am new to this forum, so please excuse me if this issue/question has already been covered..

I have just bought the wife a 2006 XT5 and in nearly every respect it is great! The only issue is cold starting which I didn't pick up on until after I'd bought it.

After reading up on the issue, I started going through the obvious, easy to sort out possible causes. To date I've removed and cleaned the EGR valve, removed and cleaned the MAF sensor, replaced the glow plugs and replaced the coolant temperature sensor. None of which have made any difference...?

In the end I decided to take it to my local dealer so that they could take a look while I waited. Within an hour they called me up to the desk to inform me that the cylinder head gasket had gone!!?!?!?! They said they had done some kind of verification that involved a colour test which categorically showed the issue. I then asked how much it would be to fix? "Between 4 and 5,000 pounds sir" said the Service Manager..... Once I'd picked myself up off the floor I left.

What I don't understand is that the car doesn't show any of the usual signs of such a failure mode. Oil is fine and black with no creamy sludge, also the level is constant. Water is clean with no signs of bubbles or contamination and again at a constant level. No overheating problems and no limp mode activation. Exhaust is clean apart from a cloud of white smoke when I first start the thing from cold, but I'm guessing that's due to fuel being pumped around while I'm trying to get it going (can take 3 or 4 attempts), and it vanishes straight away. Surely if the cold start issue was due to a cylinder head gasket then I would see some of the above symptoms? It goes like a rocket and drives really well so I am stumped?

Additionally,they said the gasket cannot be replaced as there is likely to be warpage or a crack so the entire engine would have to be changed...? Is it possible they are correct? if so, are there any other options rather than a £5,000 engine swap? Also, does anyone have any other ideas (assuming the gasket hasn't gone) on why the first start of the day is so problematic?

Any help at all would be very much appreciated!!!

Thanks!

[Doosan]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I had a similar problem about 2 years ago but mine was pushing coolant back out through the expansion tank but only when I was towing and the car drove fine. Took it to Mr T and found the head gasket had gone so repaid under the extended warranty, it took them 2 days. 2 weeks later they telephoned me to say could I bring my car back in as that they should not have done the repair but should of put in a 3/4 engine under TSB instructions for this particular engine fault.

Have a read of this http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/132178-charliefarlies-guide-to-the-toyota-2ad-diesel-engine-and-its-issues/

Dave

[gjnorthall]

Head gasket leakage doesn't always have dramatic symptoms initially but often worsens in time. The head test essentially checks for markers in the coolant being pickup up in the exhaust gases. It's pretty conclusive though a second confirmatory check would usually be done before embarking on any work.

Reading between the lines - it's quite likely that the dealer has concluded the problem to be one that befalls many diesel Ravs of this era. Theres a very good description of the issue by Charlie Farlie in the pinned section. Toyota offered a 7 year, 111800 mile extended warranty for the condition and the solution was engine replacement. Sounds, however, you're outside the terms of the warranty. Unfortunately, simply replacing the gasket could well be short lived and a waste of money. There are cheaper options than what you've quoted by your dealer but in the first instance, do you have any comeback against the seller? - probably not if a private sale. Unfortunately due to the high cost of repair there have been a few examples of 2006 diesels with this issue where the cars have simply been sold on.

[flyboy0902]

Thanks Guys,

If we assume the worst, and it is in fact the gasket, what should I do now.? I bought the car from a home based dealer and I got a free Toyota check done as well before buying plus an MOT. Problem is that I'm not sure they knew of or would have noticed the issue whilst they had/reviewed it.

Also, I've spent a small fortune doing it up. New seat covers (original) en-route to me, parking camera, roof bars plus cross bars, front end and tyre cover re-spray, front sensors, rear DVD players, front parking camera etc etc, so if I sell it now I'll be out of pocket by quite a lot. I guess I'm now in a Catch 22 situation...

@ gjnorthall, you mentioned cheaper options, can you elaborate a little. Thanks.

[gjnorthall]

Failure of the head gasket is a consequence of the issues with this engine and when you've run the car for a while, you may find other issues such as excessive oil consumption. It's quite possible that the dealer knows nothing about the issue with the car - theres nothing obvious and these guys simply buy from sources such as auctions and sell them on as quick as possible. Nevertheless the dealer is responsible and you have several legal rights.

My first response would be, armed with Toyota's diagnosis, to reject the car and get my money returned. However you have reasons you wish to retain the car and home traders are notoriously difficult to nail so only you can determine if you wish to go down the rejection path. In any event, I'd certainly spell out Toyotas conclusion to the trader - his reaction would be interesting.

The cheaper option I eluded to was an engine rebuild by someone other than Toyota - depending on the mileage, service history and other factors, you may well get down to half the cost quoted by Toyota.

[Parts-King]

How long ago did you buy it? Exactly please?

[flyboy0902]

Hmmm!

Seems I'm dammed if I do and dammed if I don't get rid of it....

@ gjnortall, I have already spoken to the son of the chap I got the car from. He and his dad run the company together. He said he was going to talk to his dad and get back to me later today. When you "say rebuild" do you mean head off, skim, new gasket and refit or is there more too it? If so, what exactly? The dealer said it could have happened due to the seal failing because of exposure the fluids within the engine which have gradually caused it to perish..

@ Parts-King, I've only had it a month. Bought on 23/02/2014.

[Parts-King]

If he is a trader, and trading from home makes no difference, then he is responsible for this. He is NOT responsible for all the add on's you have put on it

It is not easy to reject a car, everybody will glibbly tell you to reject it, but that has to be done properly. You need to get that report from the Toyota dealer stating the head gasket has gone. WRITE to the seller explaining what has happened and give him a time period to reply to you. Tell him what you want, new engine, reject the car or whatever, and see what he comes up with. Do not take any carp about not being covered under warranty, he sold it, he has to put it right, that might not mean you can actually reject it if he offers to put it right too! Time is of the essence so decide what you want to do

Get writing, recorded delivery, report back

[flyboy0902]

I forgot to mention..

The car has done 124,000 miles and has a partial service history. The lady who owned before me used it as a tool so didn't really look after it or bother to keep all receipts. Also the EGR has what I think is a part number 25620 - 26091. Doesn't that mean it's probably already been through the rebuild process at Toyota in the past? Is there a way I can check? I've spent many hours and lots of money on bringing it back to a level I'm happy with. Mechanically, the only other things I've done are:

Removed and cleaned the EGR valve

Removed and cleaned the MAF sensor

Changed the glow plugs

Replaced the coolant temperature sensor

Added BG244 to the fuel

Added Molyslip engine oil protector

Added Molyslip gearbox treatment

Checked out glow plug fuse/circuit.

[flyboy0902]

*Update*

Have gone over the details again with the dealer and although they can't say for sure, the evidence seems to show the gasket is leaking and it is almost certainly (based on extensive experience)caused by the block warping/cracking as well as possibly the head.

Have also spoken to the guys I bought it off, and so far they have been pretty good. I've said I will forward to them the written details from the dealer on what they did, what they found, and what is required to fix it. They also said they would like their mechanic to check it out by pressure testing etc in order to verify the failure. Question - Is there a certain place/location on the block the warps/fails each time? Are there any obvious signs or witness marks to look for? If so where? This might help in verifying that the block or head or gasket or a combination need fixing.

[gjnorthall]

To take a step back - the issue is that there was a design problem with these engines which essentially put them on an operational knife edge. The problem centres around the block / pistons and at some point excessive oil passing the piston raises the compression by forming carbon on the piston crown. As well as increased compression, a phenomenon known as carbon stamping takes place when carbon is pushed into the annulus between head and block damaging the gasket seal ring. So when, I say rebuild - I mean sorting the root cause by fitting new pistons etc - not just sorting the consequences by replacing the gasket. There are many examples out there where gaskets are simply replaced - modern gaskets rarely fail and there's invariably a good reason. Simply replacing the head gasket will just end up in the gasket failing again and there have been many examples of this. Indeed, at your mileage, the gasket may have been replaced previously. Traders may think that they're being perfectly reasonable in offering to replace a head gasket - they don't necessarily understand the technicalities - your Toyota dealer obviously does and has quoted for a replacement engine for good reason!

At one time, Toyota dealers rebuilt engines at the dealership but the policy was upgraded to engine replacement. As I've already mentioned - engines can be rebuilt cheaper than replacing by Toyota but this is very specialised work. Your Toyota dealer can confirm any replacement / previous work from the engine number - they may well have already checked this.

Don't use Molyslip in the engine - with modern quality oils, it can do more harm than good. Similarly, the gearbox oil in this model is very specific - don't add additives - again a case of more harm than good.

[flyboy0902]

Thanks for that!

Explains a lot.

Is there a breakdown or work instruction on what needs to be done in what order and what parts are required etc? Would be useful to show the people I bought it off.

As far history checking goes, I think they just did it off the number plate. Does that not give the same results?

[flyboy0902]

I take it the replacement blocks Toyota use are re-designed to stop the issue occuring again right?

[gjnorthall]

Toyota history checks can be done from VIN, reg or engine number. Replacement engines from Toyota have been upgraded. You can buy limited online access to Toyota's workshop manuals. The last thing I would do, is agree to a trader rebuilding the engine - this is very specialised work with loads of pitfalls and it will end in tears. Theres enough info around to demonstrate why the engine needs to be replaced and, other than rejection, this would be my starting point. Using a Toyota 2/3 engine, reduced labour rate, recovery of VAT etc - the cost to the trader could be around £3.5K

[flyboy0902]

*Update*

Have had a formal quote from Toyota (see attached), and have forwarded the mail to the trader I bought the car off, along with a note stating that I expect him to fix the problem at his expense.

They claim to know a hot shot Toyota tech. and want to run it past him before they get back to me.

Will keep informed.

[gjnorthall]

A pretty standard call off list for replacing the engine on this vehicle. The expert won't be able to pick any significant holes but theres obviously a bit of scope to reduce cost by using non-Toyota labour if they push to go that way. Let us know how you get on - there may be a couple of things for you to consider depending on the path forward.

It was interesting to note that the car was displaying a number of fault codes.

Obviously this would be a significant hit to the trader but it's really part and parcel of running a car sales business. At least a home trader doesn't have the usual dealer overheads to cover, so the margins are quite high. Essentially you wouldn't want to cover serious engine problems on a daily basis but the odd one should be tolerable.

[flyboy0902]

The car is going back next Weds, so should know more later in the week.

I might have caused the codes, or at least one of them as I turned the engine over after cleaning the maf sensor and refitting it, but forgot to plug it back in... :-/ I seem to remember reading elsewhere that the same dash warnings came up when other people had the problem though...?

[flyboy0902]

*Update*

Just picked the car up from my local mechanic.

More confused now.....?

He did another water dye test, but said the results were not any worse than he would
expect from any other car he sees. Apparently there was only a very, very, very minor
colour change. He also said he can’t see how, if it is a problem as Toyota
describe, it would have such an obvious cold start problem but show none of the
other classic blown head gasket symptoms, plus, if it was anything to do with a
blown gasket, it should get worse with warming up, not better?

I’m not sure what to do now? I’ve left it with him so that he can see the cold start
problem when he gets in tomorrow morning and I’ve asked him to do a compression
test (I thought that was what he was going to do in the first place).

As a matter of interest, is there any way to tell if the car has already had the work done
if it isn’t on the Toyota system as the egr valve has a part number that
appears to end in 1, which I gather means it has been changed already which
normally only gets done if the car has had the rebuild....?? Are there any
obvious external differences/part numbers etc between old and reworked engines.

I’m a little worried now because if the current problem is not related to the engine
warping/damage issue, and I end up keeping it, that means it could still go
bang at any point, and I’m then stuck with a multi thousand pound
bill.....?!?!?

Ideas welcome...?? :help2:

[gjnorthall]

Your Toyota dealer / DVLA could confirm if the engine number is original to the car. Unfortunately it would be difficult to establish if anything major had been done to the car by an independent, though the previous owner might be able to help. If you don't wish to pursue any other course of action then in the first instance you could do what Toyota would do and establish an accurate oil consumption over the next 700 miles or so. At the same time you could keep an eye for any coolant problems and any build up issues such as the EGR valve. If oil consumption is normal and you don't see other problems - it is conceivable that you have a head weep because of something completely different. On average these engines succumb at around 40k miles - some had excessive oil consumption right from new - others seem to have started drinking oil much later. All I would say is that 130k miles or so is a very high mileage for problems to start.

[flyboy0902]

Thanks gjnorthall.

What would cause a head weep?

So do you think if the engine was going to let go, it would probably have happened before now? My wife loves the car and doesn't want to let it go if at all possible. I'm aware that if this turns out not to be the engine rebuild issue then it's probably only a matter of time before it goes pop and we're left with a huge bill. On that basis we should get rid...

Trouble with the long term test, is that it will take a while as the wife is only doing about 15 miles a day in it so I'll be well out of the 3 month statutory warranty period from the trader by the time 700 miles is reached.

Unfortunately my local garage let me down today and "didn't get around to doing a pressure test"... so I'm none the wiser.

In the mean time my brother in law has spoken to a former Toyota Master Mechanic friend of his re. the issue and he basically reiterated what you said apart from he seems to think the cold start might be due to a "lazy starter" as it is quite common on these cars for the to play up apparently. I've got to admit the starter isn't fast, but I don't know how a good one should sound. How would I check it?

I guess we'll see what comes back from the traders mechanic when he looks at it tomorrow.

[gjnorthall]

Yes, I haven't mentioned the cold start issue because this could well be something completely different and if you read through this forum, there are loads of owners who suffer from starting issues - either hot or cold. The general consensus is that bad starting is a Battery / connections / starter motor and that using a whacking big Battery with a high CCA rating is the way to go. The connections at the Battery and motor are very important. As an ultimate step - some have fitted a 2.2kw starter motor to replace the original 1.4 kw motor.

I would have to say that doing things like compression tests or pressure tests are a bit iffy unless you have a very significant problem - it's very easy for inaccuracies to lead you to the wrong conclusion. However the sniff test for coolant is accurate especially if repeated after a while and if positive - does indicate a head gasket problem. Generally modern gaskets don't fail spuriously and would require something like overheating or carbon deposition to cause problems. I've rebuilt a couple of engines with your sort of mileage but it's been obvious that there have been long standing problems and previous attempts at repair. I'd have to say I'd have a bit of difficulty with your car, because it runs OK and at this stage theres not much evidence for high oil consumption, coolant ejection / loss or blockages of systems such as the EGR. Against all that is the fact that there is almost certainly a head gasket leak.

The car may continue to be OK or problems will occur and with time - you'll establish if there are issues such as high oil consumption - the problem in these cases is that it's never satisfactory and you drive yourself nuts that something is about to fail. I have a friend who had an early 4.3 with not a hint of a problem but he traded it in because he continuously worried that it was about to start drinking oil.

[Mike169]

Hi gjnorthall, i have a late 4.3, i believe it is actually a 4.3.5 on a 12 plate and is 2 years old, i am assuming/hoping the head gasket/oil consumption has been sorted out by now?

Regards Mike169

[gjnorthall]

Theres absolutely no evidence that Ravs from around 2009 are at any risk - they were sorted by then so I'd have no concerns about your car.

[Mike169]

Thank you for your reply gjnorthall

Mike

[flyboy0902]

*update*

Traders mechanic has checked the car over. In a nut Shell he's said the engine is fine as far as the gasket goes... He's done a prolonged pressure test and claims there was nothing in the way of a leak. Also did a "sniff" test on the expansion tank with no issues there either. He seems to think the Battery is only operating at 30% of its max, and the glow plugs (recently replaced with new ones bought from a seller on Ebay) are not efficient enough.....

I should be getting the written report from him within the next few days and will upload it for review, however, if he's right, I'm going to blow my stack at the Toyota dealer as it appears all the stress over the apparent requirement for an engine rebuild is not correct.

Still concerned it could happen though, so contemplating selling it anyway...