2.2 Cylinder Head Gasket Blown, But No Symptoms?

[gjnorthall]

Very strange. The sniff test is accurate and a Toyota dealership should be well versed in engine issues that affect the earlier 4.3 Ravs. Obviously there needs to be a serious discussion with the dealer and I guess the telling time will be over the next few months when you can check oil consumption / coolant loss. My own view is that if it can be shown that there are none of the usual symptoms - given the highish mileage, it's highly unlikely that any will now develop.

[flyboy0902]

Car's going back on Weds. I'm going to get them to do the sniff test in front of me. If it fails, I'm going to get them to do the same test on another diesel car and see what it reads..

Looking at getting a new Battery and have found one with 1000cca for about £100. Is 1000cca too high? Is £100 reasonable?

[gjnorthall]

You can't really go too high on CCA and £100 is reasonable for a good brand. The important thing is that the terminal orientation is correct and that it fits and bolts down properly in the cradle.

[flyboy0902]

Found this on eBay. (Item number 281300571704). What do you think?

Dimensions

12v 130Ah 1000CCA

Length (mm) - 330

Width (mm) - 172

Total Height (mm) - 242

Terminal Type - Standard Post (A)

Terminal Layout - Centre

Suitable for

Agricultural Machines, Generators, Vehicles, Caravans, Boats,
RV, Leisure use and more.

This is an ideal Battery for engine starting with its high
1000CCA

Warranty

4 YEARS

Description

This Battery has a MASSIVE cold cranking output making it
great to start engines.

The Battery is made from sealed lead calcium technology,
which means the plates have been hardened to make the battery more durable.

This battery comes fully charged and ready for use

Excellent design handle - Easy battery replacement

Integrated computer designed and reinforced container -
Protection from vibrations and impact

Special sealed covers - Prevents acid leaks and minimizes
gassing

Totally sealed

Maintenance Free - no topping up required

Charge level indicator

Tough polypropylene case design

[flyboy0902]

Attached is the report given to me by the Trader I got the car off. It appears pretty conclusive to me that the head gasket is fine.....

Trader mechanic report.pdf

[flyboy0902]

Just spoke to the mechanic that did the review for the trader I got it off. He seems to be a very switched on chap. Took me through all he did, how he did it, why he did it etc. I am confident that what he put in the report is 100% accurate.

Also, he has an old friend by the name Steve Smith who apparently was the world no.2 mechanic for Toyota a while back, and he seems to think based on the failure mode description that the starting problem might be a fuel pressure issue caused by either a software problem (missing update it should have had), or it might need a pressure valve replacement.

Don't suppose you know the best type of glow plugs for the car do you?

[Len7]

I had a look at your Alphaline Battery on eBay and it looks fine

Diesels need bigger Cca batteries to start up

And of course you will be pleased you have it in cold weather

But I suggest double check size and may be call them to be sure

It will be a fair old lump and as GJN says it needs to fit snugly

[flyboy0902]

Ta Len7!

As a matter of interest, if the fuel filter was dirty, could that effect only the cold start performance, or would you see other signs...?

Digressing slightly for a second, I don't suppose you know what these threaded holes are for do you?

[flyboy0902]

Just replaced my glow plugs again, but with oem standard ones rather than eBay specials.

I've attached a picture as the 1st 2 I took out (from right to left as you look in the engine bay) are rather dirty compared to the others. Could this be a sign of an issue that could effect the cold start??

[gjnorthall]

The dirty appearance of a couple of the glow plugs won't really affect starting. It's due to the quality of seal of the plug against the bottom of the tube - sometimes gases can pass into the annulus resulting in deposits. In bad cases the deposits prevent removal of the plug. It's usual to use a special reamer to clean the tube and seat area and a smear of anti seize compound on mating surfaces will help get a good seal.

Restricted fuel fiters can cause a multitude of issues on this engine - unless you know for certain when the filter was last changed - it's worthwhile replacing it.

[flyboy0902]

Thanks GJN

Also just checked the Battery connections, and noticed 2 additional red wires coming from the positive terminal. Both have weatherproof fuse holders. One had a 10amp fuse, but the other had no fuse in it at all....? Any idea what they are for and why one would have no fuse?

[flyboy0902]

*Update*

Yesterday I took the car back to Listers for another "sniff" test and I have to say the Service Manager (Adam) and the Master Technician were as pleasant, professional and accommodating as they could possibly be.

I only had to wait 10 minutes for a slot in the workshop to become available, at which point I was taken through by Adam to meet the master Tech. (can't remember his name) to discuss what we were going to do and how we were going to do it.. Adam stayed with us through the whole exercise.

In a nut Shell, the expansion tank lid was removed, the tester was placed over the hole so that no gases escaped, and the engine was kept at around 2,000rpm until it got to maximum operating temperature (when the fan cut in). Low and behold, after a short while, the blue test fluid turned green. Not very green, but green all the same (see attached pictures). Obviously that proved there is in fact a problem with the cylinder head gasket as they said right at the start. Appologies for doubting them..

Also, whilst I was there they checked the software and noticed that it was not up to the latest level for engines with new level injectors, which mine apparently has. Lastly, they noticed that the maf sensor was in fact damaged, which would explain why the dash lights would not go off and why they couldn't delete the fault codes.

Both of the above were rectified for next to no cost, and I have to say that the car seems to run far more smoothly than before, there are no dash warnings any more, and this morning it started first time...!

I work in the Automotive industry for a major supplier, and I have to say that if half the customers I work with were half as professional as the dealer in Stratford was yesterday, I'd be a very happy bunny!!

The shame of it all is that now the car is running and looking better than it has for a long time, I have no choice but to move it on or give it back to the trader I bought it off for a full refund + the cost of the partial re-spray etc.

I'd like to thank all the people on this forum that helped in getting to the bottom of the various issues with my car, especially gjnorthall who has been a mine of information and knowledge!

Cheers folks!

[flyboy0902]

*Update*

Hi All,

Didn't expect to be posting any more, but now the trader wants to have his local dealer in Wolverhampton (Charles Clark) do the same "sniff" test before he finally agrees the car is faulty and gives me my money back. Let's hope the results are the same. All I know is that the fluid Listers used was from Snap On, although I'm guessing what ever is used, the results should be the same.... Fingers crossed....

[gjnorthall]

There are a few different detection systems - in general the liquid turns yellow on petrol engines and green on diesels if there is a head leak. The Snap On equipment is particularly good - some other systems require a lot of care to prevent coolant contaminating the fluid which screws up the result. Carried out properly - the various testers should all give the same result on a particular application.

[flyboy0902]

Thanks gjnorthall,

Really appreciate your input...

VBR

[flyboy0902]

Ok, now I'm really confused....?????

Charles Clark have just conducted a sniff test and found no problems!?!?

The test was done in front of me and the trader I bought it off. I have to say that the test equipment was not Snap On, and he didn't once squeeze the rubber end of the tester, but I'm assuming he knew what he was doing, even though he kept referring to it as a 2.0 and not a 2.2 engine.....

Really don't know what to do or who to believe. Listers failed it twice, once in front of me, whilst a good independent garage tested it and it passed plus now Charles Clark have passed it, again in front of me......?

I'm thinking I might buy a tester kit myself and do it as there is no consistency between dealers/mechanics. Anyone know where I can get one....?

Also, does anyone know if there are any other easy, quick methods to check the cylinder head gasket?

Help!?!

[Mike169]

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/parts/pro_det.asp?Item_id=642924&group_ID=682894

Can be bought from many places in the UK.

Mike

[flyboy0902]

Thanks Mike.

HOW MUCH!?!?!

Blimey! I thought they'd only be about £20-30.....

Took it to another garage in Warwick this afternoon and used their test equipment (not Snap On) to test it myself.

I plugged the tester in (with clean, new fluid) and pumped it 20 times with the engine running. I then held the revs at 2,000 for several minutes until the fan came on. I then pumped it another 20 times. I then left the car running with the tester in for another 10 minutes to allow gasses to gather in the expansion tank and pumped it another 20-30 times. The fluid stayed blue.?

I don't understand why the Listers test failed, but fail it did as I saw it my self????

[Mike169]

Hi Simon

I don't know if you know Snap On is the 'creme da la creme' of garage tools, the Rolls Royce end of the range if you like and when you said you was gonna buy one yourself i thought i bet you don't realise the price of the stuff....don't get me wrong their stuff is top notch but the price far exceeds their quality due to their very good replacement system and is generally bought by mechanics that want the best! I feel the fluid Snap on use is more sensitive than cheaper makes and i am unsure if you have already been aware/written the fluid 'sniff's' for exhaust fumes in the coolant system.

Now of course is what is your next step with the car, sell it, keep it and see how things go, take it to a Toyota dealer for another report or ????, the decision is not an obvious one to make.

Good luck!

Mike.

[flyboy0902]

Hi Mike,

I here what you're saying about Snap On products being the best, and that the fluid they use for "sniff tests" might be more sensitive. My issue is if that is the case then because Toyota do not mandate what make of test is used, I'm now in a very difficult position because the 2 dealer tests conducted have given different results and I am not sure which one to go with....? Basically the results could vary due to product and therefor the non Snap On test could be giving inaccurate readings which could cost me big time in the long run if I keep the car which my wife has fallen in love with...

Inconsistent readings based on make of product is not what I would expect to see from any garage, let alone main dealers.

Is there not a specification for these fluids? Don't Toyota have a minimum requirement if not a preferred supplier/manufacturer? If not, why not, as these tests are a fundamental tool in diagnosing a known fault with there engines, and the results could have a direct effect on owners decisions to sell/get fixed etc. If I go with Listers results I should get rid of the car. If I go with the results from Charles Clark I'm ok to keep it..

All I need is a definitive "yes" the gasket has gone, or a "no" it's fine. Instead I'm getting both and rather cheesed off....!

Sorry for banging on...

[gjnorthall]

All testers are basically the same - a failed head gasket allows CO / CO2 into the coolant. This bubbles through the test solution which results in a pH change and a pH indicator in the solution changes colour as a consequence. There isn't a sensitivity issue between testers - it really is a go / no go test and it's hard to imagine how you'd get a false positive. When I've used these testers in the past - the same test equipment and the same bottle of test solution has given positive results on some cars and negative on others so I've been happy that the equipment is discerning - it would be a concern if every test was say negative. I have seen silly things done in the past, such as pouring used solution back into the bottle or contaminating the test solution with coolant.............

I really don't know what to conclude from the various tests carried out on your Rav - I guess I'd only be happy if I saw a positive test on your car then a negative on another car tested at the same time under the same conditions and the same equipment. If there is a leak, then it's pretty small since I guess you're not getting other tell tale signs - coolant level dropping or white stains around the discharge spigot on the expansion bottle.

I'm assuming that the trader will now be feeling pretty smug and you've lost one option. Theres no easy answer to your dilemma - you either cut your losses now or carry on regardless with some confidence that things won't deteriorate in the medium term.

[flyboy0902]

I understand all of that, and you're right, the only way to validate the Listers fluid would be to carry out a proper "ABA" check, although all this running around is getting expensive, let alone the time out of work I'm having to take...

What's even more confusing is that Listers failed it twice?

To me that means either the Listers test was some how corrupted or flawed, although I don't know how, or the Snap On testers different some how since none of the others used were Snap On?

When you say medium term, how long do you think that is. I mean, could this go bad in a catastrophic way all of a sudden, or are we looking at several years to get worse?

[Awebb180]

you need to squeeze the tester as it draws the air through the mixture to try and activate the change. It wont do anything just with it sat on the expansion tank. Do you have any white residue over the header tank?

Alex

[gjnorthall]

In reality, if someone hadn't linked bad starting and a possible head gasket failure - you'd be none the wiser. It doesn't sound as if there are any apparent symptoms that would suggest to anyone that there is an engine problem (high oil consumption, blockage of EGR etc, ejection of coolant). The car has covered probably 2 or 3 times the average mileage at which these engines fail, so the probability is that it will continue clocking up the miles for some time to come though it's difficult to be more precise. Unfortunately the various sniff tests have resulted in a lot of uncertainty and if there is genuinely a head weep then the balance of probabilities is that things will deteriorate (constant leakage, albeit small, will wire draw the gasket or create a track mark on the head). I think most people faced with this dilemma would need to bottom out the sniff testing otherwise they'd worry for evermore that a failure was on the horizon.

[flyboy0902]

Have decided to run with the car as it is. The trader has proved to himself that there is nothing wrong with the gasket, and after 6 previous tests at different places I'm a little fed up with the whole issue.... Other than the Listers tests were with Snap On kit a still can't, and guess I never will, understand why the other tests done gave the chg a clean bill of health.?

Whilst the support at both dealer and forum level has been very good, I don't think I'd buy another Toyota. I've just lost confidence in the brand and the fact that 2 separate, but still oem dealers, have done identical tests but come up with different results to me means there are some fundamental issues that Toyota need to take in hand at a higher level, and streamline.

Will keep you informed on how the car goes, but I can't see us keeping it too long. Pity really.