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Replacement Front Brakes After The Judder Got Worse.


Konrad C
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Just changed my brakes again as the dreaded brake judder returned with a vengeance.

I had enough of the brake judder after the car went crazy whilst braking from high speed.

For a few years I used Apec brakes with no issues, then 2 years ago fitted ADL Blueprint. They began to judder so last year fiited Eicher from Euro Car Parts. They started to judder and got increasingly worse. The steering wheel was going crazy!

Today after a conversation with my mechanic I fitted the Apec brand. Also will change the brake fluid.

I hope this banishes the judder.

post-76861-0-34945400-1428698389_thumb.jpost-76861-0-75526400-1428698404_thumb.jpost-76861-0-22730100-1428698427_thumb.jpost-76861-0-63084000-1428698464_thumb.jpost-76861-0-47130900-1428698507_thumb.jpost-76861-0-80912500-1428698480_thumb.j

Very quick and easy job. Remember to pump the brake!

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I have ADL blueprint on the front I wont be using them again.

I have just bought some rear ferodo dics for £30 hopefully if the weather is good I will be fitting them tomorrow. I could of got apec discs for £27 but paid the £3 extra for ferodo.

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Just changed my brakes again as the dreaded brake judder returned with a vengeance.

I had enough of the brake judder after the car went crazy whilst braking from high speed.

For a few years I used Apec brakes with no issues, then 2 years ago fitted ADL Blueprint. They began to judder so last year fiited Eicher from Euro Car Parts. They started to judder and got increasingly worse. The steering wheel was going crazy!

Today after a conversation with my mechanic I fitted the ADL brand. Also will change the brake fluid.

I hope this banishes the judder.

IMG_4183.jpg IMG_4185.jpg IMG_4186.jpg IMG_4188.jpg IMG_4189.jpg IMG_4190.jpg

Very quick and easy job. Remember to pump the brake!

Hi Konrad,

what was causing the brake judder. In my experience it's almost always a warped disc that you feel directly through the steering wheel when they are applied.I imagine that's what the problem is as i'm sure you know.

Are they easily warped then? haven't had any problems with mine so far I put new discs and pads all round, can't remember the make of them but they were basically a generic brand from the motor factors nothing fancy I'm afraid.

The front caliper had a piston seizing up and binding, the other side the same but not so badly. The rears were worn one being beyond hope so it was replaced. The three remaining calipers were stripped right down, cleaned out The pistons had a line of blistering and surface rust where they stuck which i spent an entire night delicately sanding with 2000 wet n dry then polishing and polishing and polishing with autosol. The same with the cylinder linings then refitted with brand new seals.

I've probably only broke vigorously once since doing it and so far they've taken it. Harsh braking is the one form of abuse my car doesnt get as I use my throttle to adjust for cornering and being a truck driver i'm very good at observing well ahead so am always at the right speed when something happens. It's not citical in a car but driving a 26 tonner I never want to find myself driving too fast when a situation occurs because i wasn't aware of things way down the road. Have never had to slam on the anchors of a 26 tonner n hope i never will but it does mean i'm not a heavy brake user in the car.

My brakes were not cheap and nasty but not exactly cross drilled or grooved Brembos discs either, wouldn't want to overuse them a lot and build up the heat to quickly.

The first drive with them I was more aggressive with them attenpting to brake them in quickly as it went for the m.o.t first thing in the morning.Usually they recommend you bed them in slow but there was no time so I broke positively from speed nunerous times and then less force slowing down smoothly. Kept on doing similar braking maneuvers from speed on a straight.

All the same it seems crazy that braking from speed would damage a set of discs enough to warp them unless the metal they were made from was cheap or prompted very uneven heat transfer. The braking system isn't designed for high speed emergency stops but it has to be capable of coping with it if it happens. Seems as though certain brands fall short at the crucial moment, they stopped you but were damaged in the process.

Hope the new ones work.Mine came from Dingbro or Euro Parts I can't remember for sure. A res box with blue lettering, could have been Eicher, something tells me it began with E lol

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just to add

a cracked or broken suspension spring will cause judder

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I've purchased cars with existing Judder but never had it reoccur once the discs were changed. I've read that disc warp can happen if the pedal remains depressed after heavy braking causing the pads to rest on the disc causing a localised hot spot.

I avoid doing that anyway but there could be something in this?

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Can also be pad build up on the disc surface which in turn makes a wobble. 5 or 6 very hard stops to get them smoking normally does the trick. it is actually quite hard to warp a disc in normal usage.

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

Alex

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just to add

a cracked or broken suspension spring will cause judder

yeah but a broken spring nearly always effects how the steering feels when turning the wheel plus the car will pull noticeably to the side on which the spring has snapped.

It can cause judder but brake problems are felt mostly during broken while a broken spring is felt through the steering mostly and going over holes in the road

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Can also be pad build up on the disc surface which in turn makes a wobble. 5 or 6 very hard stops to get them smoking normally does the trick. it is actually quite hard to warp a disc in normal usage.

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

Alex

Yes I agree to a point about build up but that manifests as the brakes catching and grabbing more than judder.

It is hard to warp a disc except on the initial bedding in process or on a disc made from inferior material or low quality construction but it does still happen,it's heating them up quickly as opposed to normally can cause some. warping.

They don't warp as much as they used to because they are nearly always vented, often with ABS so the pad isn't held to the disc as continously and better metal. More braking was done by the front disc in the past as rear disc are more and more common.

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Update. The new brakes have bedded in well so far. Nice and smooth, no steering going crazy. I live near a hilly area so some of my journeys means coming down the hill, depending which direction I am coming from. One of the roads has speed bumps, which means a lot of braking to check the speed. I never had problems with the Apec brand before, only the other brands. Now back on Apec hopefully should be okay.

I did in the past have low speed vibration which sounded like a sub bass speaker when, the car was almost stationary. This was brake dust build up.

When slowing the car I change down and use gentle braking, not last of the late brakers. I also use the handbrake when stationary.

Here are pictures of the disks I just removed.

post-76861-0-84709000-1428990740_thumb.jpost-76861-0-72673600-1428990764_thumb.jpost-76861-0-29071400-1428990788_thumb.j

Looking at the disks and putting a straight edge around the each of the disks, warp does not seem evident. Looking at the surface, there is scoring. These are Eicher brakes - disk and pads. 8months old.

For now the brakes are working as the should.

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It's hard to say from a photo but they also have that heat glazed look about them, it.could be the photo or the device i'm viewing with but they do seem a littke glazed. Definitely scored that's for sure. Top one looks particularly pitted towards the outside and it shouldn't be like that after 8 months. A car has sat unmoved for months allowing rust to eat into the disc surface and produce that pinhole effect but not a car that's in regular use.

Snap I have to come down a bit of a hill on tight bumpy rural roads to get to work so the brakes are. used then but otherwise I'm like you, prefer to use throttle and gears to adjust my speed not my brakes so you shouldn't be seeing the kind of wear these show.

All I can suggest the cause to be cheaper is a lower quality metal used for making the discs.

Again it looks heat glazed which is bizarre, what condition are the pad faces in??

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It's hard to say from a photo but they also have that heat glazed look about them, it.could be the photo or the device i'm viewing with but they do seem a littke glazed. Definitely scored that's for sure. Top one looks particularly pitted towards the outside and it shouldn't be like that after 8 months. A car has sat unmoved for months allowing rust to eat into the disc surface and produce that pinhole effect but not a car that's in regular use.

Snap I have to come down a bit of a hill on tight bumpy rural roads to get to work so the brakes are. used then but otherwise I'm like you, prefer to use throttle and gears to adjust my speed not my brakes so you shouldn't be seeing the kind of wear these show.

All I can suggest the cause to be cheaper is a lower quality metal used for making the discs.

Again it looks heat glazed which is bizarre, what condition are the pad faces in??

The brake pads are Eicher Euro car Parts brand, same as the disks.

Here are a few pictures of one the pads - they are all the same.

post-76861-0-09480100-1429039577_thumb.jpost-76861-0-21791000-1429039595_thumb.jpost-76861-0-58815700-1429039615_thumb.jpost-76861-0-72674000-1429039634_thumb.j

Something else i noticed, they clicked when braking at low speeds. It is noticeable with the windows down. Not I have not heard the new set make a sound.

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Clicking?? Is that like a solid ckicking sound or a more lighter rattling. sound....... you known like a heat shield has a light rattling kind of sound where as an anti roll bar bush or drop link when it it's gone has a. heavier solid knock. when the bar hits off the lower arm.... that's the best way i can think of asking the quality of the sound of the click.

Often when the anti rattle shims and or springs have worn the pads are loose to rattle when not braking..... or. is it another kind of soind altogether???

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The brakes are behaving fine so far. I have not noticed any sounds since the 'upgrade'. The Eicher pads did not have any anti rattle backing, which the Apec and the Blue Print do have. It shows you get what you pay for, but the price was not that much different any way!

On another note I renewed the brake fluid.

I used my old Eezibleed kit which I had to search for. I really should have bought a new kit as there were a couple of problems.

First the hoses in the Eezibleed bottle cap leaked until I pushed them until there was no leak.

Second the syphon hose in Eezibleed bottle had detached under the cap.

Once sorted the brake fluid renew was slow but no issues.

I used the 45/44 cap with the thicker rubber gasket. Fits fine and no leaks. Eezibleed warns that some Japanese make including Toyota may not be compatible. I have seen a poster on this site, who had issue with the cap not fitting his car reservoir. I had no such issues.

I had to remove the rear offside wheel because the exhaust silencer restricted access. The rest of the wheels stayed on.

The brake pedal feels good, but I have not driven the car yet. Will update on the feel and action.

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Update.

Good pedal, touch soft as brake are still bedding, effort the same and travel minimal. Stops as expected.

Could do the brake fluid again, as I have about 4 litres of Dot4.

Very pleased overall.

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Sounds good, no you never seem to get the 'extras' which I would consider a 'goes without saying' essential like for instance anti rattle plates n shims, the basic nut that holds the front strut together before fitting on the Clio or a radiator cap on my new radiator which i picked up this afternoon.

Have never tried Eezibleed system have always used the one man bleed kit with the non return valve which I find as easy as it gets compared to the old fashioned two man.....'keep that pedal down, hold it, hold it... what's that you let it up straight away...damn i tightened it back up too' lol. The only problem being letting the fluid drop too far it draws air but only a donkey would allow that lol

Yeah I had to take off the rear for the same reason but the rest were easy. My brakes felt a little soft at first but i think i was expecting that instant bite on touching the pedal but there was no fierce braking when a deer ran out just a solid dose of brake n back on the throttl taking her to the opposite side of the single track road, very little fuss or drama and very controlled, surprisingly quick and positive to rapid changes of direction. I say surprisingly as she feels somehow vague driving quickly with the front wheels straight on. Anyway the brakes lack that initial bite i expect but they work alright and passed the MOT lol

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Update.

I drove the car properly and the pedal was not as soft as I thought. The pedal was fairly firm and not much force was needed. The bite is very good.

The Eezibleed system has the advantage of acting as a second reservoir. Also you can stop midway through the brake bleeding to check the Eezibleed reservoir level. The master cylinder reservoir is always topped up by the Eezibleed system, so unless you are too engrossed in bleeding, you should not run the master cylinder dry. Just check after each wheel.

The looked at the one man system, but the Haynes manual recommend the Eezibleed system. May be it is the ABS system would make bleeding more difficult, I don't think so.

You are right when having help with bleeding, not listening to the orders given, messing up the whole process. I prefer the one man system.

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If it returns I would also be looking at the ball joints and track rod ends, are the tyres completely round??

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Car running very smooth. Brakes smooth and powerful. No judder or vibration any time, at speed or braking.

Will report if I notice any changes.

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Great post about your brakes Konrad, specially with the pics. Would I be right in saying that's ATE callipers you have fitted? Certainly looks like ATE with the big anti-rattle spring.

ATE callipers gave a lot of trouble on certain Jeeps with wobble and uneven braking. The usual sorry tale of owners replacing discs and pads, everything OK for a while and then trouble starting all over again. Forums were awash with posts about these discs / pads were better than those discs / pads or how it was all because the brakes were not being bedded in properly etc. Bottom line was poor calliper design by ATE and the answer was to fit Akebono callipers.

The ATE calliper was OK when it was brand new but as wear took place there was poor energy transfer from the piston side to the reactive side resulting in a bending force being applied to one side of the disc resulting in shudder. Any corrosion in the pad mounting slots resulting in stickiness or seizure made the condition even worse as did pads that were worn wedge shaped and glazed. When you fit new pads and discs the pistons are pressed back in, slots all cleaned out and everything works OK at first but then after a while the problems return.

I see that some versions of the Avensis Verso had Akebono callipers fitted as OEM equipment and just wondered if Akebono callipers are available for the saloon / estate.

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Great post about your brakes Konrad, specially with the pics. Would I be right in saying that's ATE callipers you have fitted? Certainly looks like ATE with the big anti-rattle spring.

ATE callipers gave a lot of trouble on certain Jeeps with wobble and uneven braking. The usual sorry tale of owners replacing discs and pads, everything OK for a while and then trouble starting all over again. Forums were awash with posts about these discs / pads were better than those discs / pads or how it was all because the brakes were not being bedded in properly etc. Bottom line was poor calliper design by ATE and the answer was to fit Akebono callipers.

The ATE calliper was OK when it was brand new but as wear took place there was poor energy transfer from the piston side to the reactive side resulting in a bending force being applied to one side of the disc resulting in shudder. Any corrosion in the pad mounting slots resulting in stickiness or seizure made the condition even worse as did pads that were worn wedge shaped and glazed. When you fit new pads and discs the pistons are pressed back in, slots all cleaned out and everything works OK at first but then after a while the problems return.

I see that some versions of the Avensis Verso had Akebono callipers fitted as OEM equipment and just wondered if Akebono callipers are available for the saloon / estate.

Tom, you have educated me on ATE brakes. I had the same type on my old '93 Cavalier, so it is an old design. It had the spring and 7mm allen key bolts.

The Avensis caliper changed when the vvti was introduced.

So to change the caliper, I have to get the vvti calipers, mounting brackets, pads and discs. I will see how the brakes ar for now and they are fine. Just had to change the ABS ECU, when mine packed up. Cost £10 from scrapper.

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It's a funny old world but now I am experiencing the same problem with my front passenger side brake, it appears to be the disc as with the front end up and wheel free it turns with a little rubbing but there's a point where it rubs every turn of the wheel.

I saw the above post about ate callipers but I am certain my front ones are ate's because when I rebuilt them I cleaned them right back to the metal with a sanding disc on my grinder and I definitely uncovered ate stamped in the main body of them.... mines is a 2002 vvti.... ps I agree about then way they transfer and that the pads sticking in the grooves...... I've had pretty much most cavaliers from a B plate mk2 through to a the very last N plater and they are very similar, with the same issues.

Have never liked them I much prefer the old Ford type with a wheel cylinder either side of the disc :)

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I'm with you there FastBob, the world would be a better place if we still had callipers with pistons each side of the disc.

You touched on an aspect in post #3 which is critically important - cleanliness of the pistons. It's well worth taking them out and cleaning them very carefully. Sticking pistons alone can cause brake judder as can various other factors which you can't cover in a single post, not unless it was going to run into an eyes-glazed marathon.

I have a hypodermic syringe and sometimes, when I'm fitting new pads, I insert the needle through the outer dust cover and squirt in a little new brake fluid over the pistons before I push them back in (assuming the callipers are fairly new and don't need stripped down).

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