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Dangerous Window Failure


rgvsean
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Hi, 

I have brought this to attention of Toyota and there is no interest in it from a safety angle, so I am sharing info as a warning. 

5 door Aygos - your rear rear window may fall out if the bonding fails. I raised it to Toyota to avoid someone being seriously hurt - they are not in the slightest interested.

I have posted it to Toyota facebook too

Mine came out at 60 and was saved by the plastic latch and I was able to slow down in time before it snapped off. It has damaged the door.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else's falls out; Toyota claim they've never heard of it before.

Bear in mind I use this as a daily driver for work, I am a mechanic. I never use the back of the car. 

I am not doing this to try and screw Toyota for a £130 part. I genuinely feel this could seriously hurt someone in the right combination of circumstances.

 

Bonding point inside glass.jpg

hinge on car.jpg

Main WIndow.jpg

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There are approx six instances of similar failures on the C1OC, affecting 107's and C1's. Suppose on an 11 year old car the adhesive used may be nearing the end of its design life. As regards being dangerous, anything coming open on a car in motion could be be dangerous - eg. the well publicised Renault Clio bonnet latch fault.

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I've since found some info on that, thank you for confirming.

Regards glue life - I am ex aircraft engineer. They should have specified a better glue or bonding system, if you fly on holiday your aircraft may be partially held together by glues and sealants that are 20-30 years old. This could be due to glue life or application processes or human failure. It's the lack of interest in finding out I find concerning.

My initial worry was not for the safety of the driver - if that glass comes off at speed then it has the potential to do serious damage. A bonnet coming open......risky I agree but one can apply the brakes etc. If the window flies off it's down to pure chance what it does at impact.

I've since repaired it myself, I am unconcerned about the money, it's my daily driver as I keep my other car for weekends. Toyota told me it was the first instance so I wanted to make people aware (do they really not know or ...............?).

If it's old news feel free to ignore/delete as appropriate. 

 

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12 minutes ago, rgvsean said:

A bonnet coming open......risky I agree but one can apply the brakes etc.

With the Clio some owners had the bonnet fly up, smash the windscreen, and  obscure all forward visibility by staying upright until the vehicle stopped - either by braking or hitting something. So fairly dangerous.

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1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

With the Clio some owners had the bonnet fly up, smash the windscreen, and  obscure all forward visibility by staying upright until the vehicle stopped - either by braking or hitting something. So fairly dangerous.

Yes - very dangerous. Not sure I disagreed with you, I just said one can press the brakes to help the situation, and flying windows do not have brakes. Do you disagree with this? 

Your logic seems to be 'it's ok that this is dangerous because that other thing is also dangerous' and it confuses me. I don't own a clio and never will, but I will be ready when driving behind one. Thanks for the heads up :)

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Mike169 said:

Hi Sean, I dunno if you wish to complain to Toyota Head Office but this link will take you to it. https://www.complaintsdepartment.co.uk/toyota-uk/  Mike

Thanks, very helpful.  I'll see what comes from the Facebook team first. 

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That looks dangerous to me, there are loads of dangerous scenarios that I can think of, what if a moped was right behind you when the glass let loose of itself.....

Expected life of parts (and glues) should be much longer than 10years, there are still loads of first gen. Aygo/107/C1s on the road, Toyota have no excuse.

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At 60mph the window isn't hanging down by the way, that's after stopping, where it falls and scratches the door. At 60 it is out at 45 degrees being battered by the wind due to it being the leading edge that fails.

 

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I had this recently on my 2006 Aygo, offside. Fortunately, only the top hinge detached, and I only noticed due to an increase in wind noise. The consequences of a lump of glass hitting a motorcyclist (which I had been for 25 years) at 70mph doesnt bear thinking about.

I have yet to come up with a permanent solution apart from buying a new window. I am of the opinion that the factory 'mastic' used was not fit for purpose. I am currently looking at the range of Sikaflex products to see if they make a suitable adhesive. I have used their '291i' product many times in the past, primarily as a marine adhesive and have been extremely impressed. It sticks like you wouldnt believe, is flexible and doesnt degrade which the stock one seems to have done on my window. Its gone very powdery - the mess it left on my hands was unbelievable. I have never had Sikaflex do this (once cured of course).

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Every part will have a projected design life, and no manufacturer will over engineer a part beyond that projection.

Both generations of the Aygo, together with the C1 and 107/108, are a joint development between Toyota and PSA. The design is a shared design and the manufacturing is by a Joint Venture company, rather than by Toyota or by PSA. 

If this particular issue is thought to be safety related, rather than just post the problem on an owners forum, one could report it to DVSA using a straightforward online process. If DVSA receive a sufficient number of complaints, they will investigate the issue with the manufacturer/s - in this case the Joint Venture, Toyota and PSA - and if there is a safety issue, a formal recall will be undertaken. 

If there are insufficient complaints for an investigation, this will be reported back to the complainants.

See https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/report-a-serious-safety-defect

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4 hours ago, Planemo said:

I had this recently on my 2006 Aygo, offside. Fortunately, only the top hinge detached, and I only noticed due to an increase in wind noise. The consequences of a lump of glass hitting a motorcyclist (which I had been for 25 years) at 70mph doesnt bear thinking about.

I have yet to come up with a permanent solution apart from buying a new window. I am of the opinion that the factory 'mastic' used was not fit for purpose. I am currently looking at the range of Sikaflex products to see if they make a suitable adhesive. I have used their '291i' product many times in the past, primarily as a marine adhesive and have been extremely impressed. It sticks like you wouldnt believe, is flexible and doesnt degrade which the stock one seems to have done on my window. Its gone very powdery - the mess it left on my hands was unbelievable. I have never had Sikaflex do this (once cured of course).

I used a glue I use at work. The bond seems very good and it has a statement in the literature claiming "lifetime bond - uv and weather proof" I'll be happy to share the info with you by PM so you can buy some on the understanding I haven't put many miles on it yet. Also heard silkaflex is good, be interested to hear how you get on with it for comparison if you use it.

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Every part will have a projected design life, and no manufacturer will over engineer a part beyond that projection.

 

rather than just post the problem on an owners forum, one could report it to DVSA using a straightforward online process.

I do not agree with your fist sentence based on my knowledge. If you're an engineer working in this field then I am happy to be educated. I don't claim to know.

 A forum is a place to share information and help others, that's all I wanted to do (within the published rules of the forum).

Thanks for the DVSA link. 

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6 minutes ago, rgvsean said:

it has a statement in the literature claiming "lifetime bond - uv and weather proof"

.. but what is the lifetime? Again the product will be designed to have a specific life, and as an engineer you should know this. The statement is meaningless.

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What do you do for a living Mike? Any engineering background? 

See here where I wrote (and you chose to snip) 

Quote

so you can buy some on the understanding I haven't put many miles on it yet. Also heard silkaflex is good, be interested to hear how you get on with it for comparison 

What does that tell you about my thoughts on the lifetime bond claim? You're not aware (how could you be) that I have contacted the manufacturer to ask them for clarification. That's what people who think, do, they look at something and query it, learn from it. Think about it. They don't go around stating things they have no idea are true such as "all parts have a designed life" - that my friend, is utter nonsense. Here is some random info I found about adhesive bonds for you though: http://www.permabond.com/2011/08/30/long-adhesive-bond/ and if you can't be bothered to go through it all dear readers:

Quote

 It’s impossible to say “in seventeen years, five months and three days time your adhesive bond is scheduled to fall apart” the adhesive bond should last indefinitely.

But let's assume it's true for now. These amazing car designers have selected a glue with a projected specific (your word) life. Perhaps you can explain to us why windows started falling out in 2012 and now. So we have 3 facts we know so far:

Some windows fell out in 2012 - max possible age of car about 7 years
2 People here had windows fall out of 2006 Aygo's after 11 years

Now, have a look here: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=toyota+aygo&commit=Search

this is just Aygo but you need to do the other 2 as well. We have to assume either some have not reported or none of those others have fallen out yet.

So tell me Mike, with the numbers info I just gave you:

1. Is the glue failing at it's design specific (your word) life?

2: If you're correct, why did they choose pick a 'design life' of 7-11 years? They used this deliberately instead of lifetime stuff? Shocking.

Quote

Certain types of adhesive are designed to be temporary so will break down as and when they are supposed to under the correct conditions.

3: Are they now waiting for hundreds of thousands of windows to fall out and hope none hit a person? 

4: Its specific design life (again, your words) maybe is much longer than 7-11 years (perhaps it was a lifetime bond product) - therefore these have failed early, what should they do?

It's quite possible failure is down to human factors - someone not de-greasing properly or the glue not fully curing due to a mixing error. Without investigating it can never be known.

Personally, I think it's a poor design; to rely on only adhesive at that location. 

 

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for me the term lifetime is from the day the car rolled off the production line to the day its crushed

so during that timescale the glass shouldn't come loose,you wouldn't expect the windscreen to come loose

and fall out after a number of years so why should the side glass if the correct adhesives has been used

for the intended application there shouldn't be any problems.

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I come from a professional procurement background (MCIPS), which in layman's terms means buying. Procurement teams will buy products used in manufacturing, government services, defence, etc, which meet specifications laid down by the organisation needing those products.

A specification will obviously vary from product to product, but would include something on how long the product would be expected to be used or last (lifetime). This applies no matter what industry one is in, and if you don't think this is the case, then you're being unrealistic.

The Permabond link talks about adhesive lasting the 'useful lifetime of the product', which again puts a limit (though undisclosed) on the term 'lifetime'. 

Most manufacturers provide a warranty on their products which protect the purchaser against manufacturing faults. All warranties are subject to limits, and these would either be time or usage based. In the case of your 2006 Aygo, the warranty will have expired in 2009.

Again if you think the side window issue is a safety concern, then you already have been provided with the link to report the issue to DVSA. If there are a sufficient number of similar complaints, DVSA will investigate the issue with the manufacturer. If not, they won't.

 

 

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I'm not sure why you think warranty is relevant; I'm not making a warranty claim.

What was the design life of the airbags that are all being changed? Some cars going in are 2008 or older for new airbags. Not under warranty. 

As eygo mentions he expects it to be the lifetime of the car - and I think that is a reasonable assumption to make and I would guess one the manufacturer expected when they chose the glue. A structural bond should have the expected life of the whole assembly (in this case the window assembly). You simply can't deny this. It's not only basic engineering it is common sense. 

Like I said earlier - I just wanted to make people aware so they can check their windows for security, if you hear a whistling like a window is partly open - check the bonds. I'm not sure how invisibly reporting to DVSA would get the info where it needs to be quickly enough. This forum post has cost nothing and brought attention to a POTENTIAL problem. 

Anyway - getting a bit bored of arguing over design life theory - the fact of the matter is windows are falling out, for whatever reason. If you are a person who thinks this SHOULDN'T be happening please check your car or speak to your dealer. If you're totally ok with it, like frosty, then please simply ignore my post. 

No-one here knows who/what/why the factory chose that glue or how long it's supposed to last (that's why I asked them) - evidence is that it is not lasting CONSISTENTLY across the board - so check.

At least now if someone is hurt they can't say they did not know about it.

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5 hours ago, rgvsean said:

It's quite possible failure is down to human factors - someone not de-greasing properly or the glue not fully curing due to a mixing error.

Which would have been a manufacturing fault, and which is why the new car warranty, which covers manufacturing faults, was mentioned.

1 hour ago, rgvsean said:

A structural bond should have the expected life of the whole assembly

Which is what I've been saying all along - component elements of cars, whether that is adhesive, glass, window winders, etc would have an expected, design or otherwise limited life.

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