Heel And Toe...

[teekay523]

difference in opinion to be honest. some ppl think its useful whilst other ppl don't. i know for a fact that since i learnt heel and toe i can accellerate out of corners a lot faster and enter it quicker. noticed that since i couldn't keep up with my cousin before on a track and when i learnt how to blip the throttle and go into a lower gear i could keep up with him coming out of turns. i.e. 4th gear at 80mph slow down to 60 and downshift to 3rd. ( would be 2nd on other car but not yaris t sport lol. obvious reasons there ;) ) true theres no need for it on roads but if u can master something like this it also enables u to become more safer on the road using ur gears aswell as brakes to slow the car down. also u'll know the car a lot more better and its chracteristics. some ppl say theres no point in underpowered cars...but if u let ur revs drop whilst racing then isn't that a bad thing since u have to use more time to build up ur revs? in a big car with a lot of power its fine but in an underpowered car its a completlely different story. well thats just my views on this. i've noticed that when done properly u have more control of the car and can keep the car from going under or over since u know when u have more or less power.

[Woody27]

teekay ya have a point but saying that its safer as your break with the gears? i was under the impression that blippin the throttle removes/lessens the effect of engine braking? I suppose it's whether your back on the throttle or not but you carry more speed at the higher revs your blippin the throttle to match rather than the less smooth option of it dropping revs as you change down? I guess it also gives less wear on components but these cars are designed to last with normal driving techniques. Tbh its all up to you how you drive etc and aslong as it doesnt effect me your welcome to whatever style you like :P

Just my opinion :)

[snellgrove]

I dont think it lets you stop much faster, or much slower..... it all depends how short a time you have the clutch down (and are thus only on 'brakes' alone)

scenario: you suddenly need to stop from 50+mph, and your in 5th...

driver A:

jams the brakes on, ABS cuts in and car slows down pretty fast - they put the clutch in and go for 2nd..... theres a slight delay while the syncro spins the engine side of the gearbox up and once in gear they lift the clutch - the revs are obviously pretty much @ 1000, and the car experiences sudden, sharp engine braking while the revs fly up to 3+ grand or whatever. car comes to a stop

driver B:

jams the brakes on with their toes, ABS cuts in and the car, again slows down pretty fast and while doing this they stuff the clutch onto the floor and also push the throttle hard with their heel briefly bringing the revs to 4/5 grand.. the gear slots into 2nd nicely, they bring the clutch up hard - the car doens't lurch forward, its already at the appropriate engine speed. the car comes to a stop

I dunno how much quicker you get to 0, but its way smoother and say your braking for a corner really hard, this is vital as it doesnt upset the suspension :) i think its useful, definately.

[earpl]

gayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :P

[Gnome]

Handbrakes FTW!!!!

[Flat Pack]

difference in opinion to be honest. some ppl think its useful whilst other ppl don't. i know for a fact that since i learnt heel and toe i can accellerate out of corners a lot faster and enter it quicker. noticed that since i couldn't keep up with my cousin before on a track and when i learnt how to blip the throttle and go into a lower gear i could keep up with him coming out of turns. i.e. 4th gear at 80mph slow down to 60 and downshift to 3rd. ( would be 2nd on other car but not yaris t sport lol. obvious reasons there ;) )

No sorry, you learnt that if you choose the right bleeding gear you can get in and out of the corner quicker! Heel and toe has nothing to do with corner entry or exit speeds and nothing to do with braking harder either. If you're on track and can stop quicker by slamming in a lower gear, you're not pressing that middle pedal hard enough. Its simply a way of getting your gearchanges out of the way while you're slowing down, rather than having to make them after braking and before turn in. Saves a little bit of time if you're good at it on track, utterly pointless on the road as you shouldn't be trying to minimise the distance between coming on the brakes and turning into a corner anyway - you always need something in reserve.

Matching revs on downshifts is a good and useful road technique though (its not really double de-clutching like everyone here is saying, that's a touch more complicated), bringing the revs up to the right speed for your road speed and the gear you're going to select gives a nice smooth change, doesn't upset the car so much and lessens wear on the drivetrain. Its easy to do with a little bit of practice, everyone should learn and do this ;) Oh and you don't need to use the clutch if you get it right :P

[u47sb2]

IMO heel and toeing and double de-clutching should never be required when on the road. If you are driving that hard something else will start to go off first (e.g brake fade or glowing discs) and for all the extra engine braking you get you won't stop cooking the things! There are also so many other variables that make that level of commitment down-right dangerous too i.e other vehicles, rabbits/deer/foxes, potholes, gritty/dusty side of road...

Ok it's nice to get a smooth downshift but is it not a lot more fun to come into a corner on the brakes with the back-end going light then apply the throttle and get a heap of oversteer then manage to sort it all out and continue on your way. All this being on private road/airfield in the wet with the cheapest/most worn tyres you can get your hands on! Always more fun having an unsuspecting friend in the passenger seat that spends half the time looking ahead through the side windows than just about beating a 1.2 Clio on the public road!

Steven

[earpl]

i think this thread should be closed because...........

[teekay523]

if it's that boring then how come it's attracted other ppl without yaris's to this thread? and theres been quite a lot of views and a fair amount of replies :P

[earpl]

because they've all come to laugh at people in 1.0l yaris using heal & toe on the way to school

congratulations!!!!!

[mcsky]

hey mr! u laughin at my 1.0li lolz, u can laugh at the heel and toe as i don't use it but not my lil 998cc sh*tter

thats it now, i'm all syked up! bring it on TOW next yr at JAE!, WE, the OctaneJunkies shall come prepared next year with a stronger team mwahaha. we all wore flashy trainers this year, wasnt aware i was gonna do it lolz, i've got a vid of us all slipping, so funny haha.

[Gnome]

hey mr! u laughin at my 1.0li lolz, u can laugh at the heel and toe as i don't use it but not my lil 998cc sh*tter

thats it now, i'm all syked up! bring it on TOW next yr at JAE!, WE, the OctaneJunkies shall come prepared next year with a stronger team mwahaha. we all wore flashy trainers this year, wasnt aware i was gonna do it lolz, i've got a vid of us all slipping, so funny haha.

CONGRATUMALATIONS!!!!!

:P

BTW - OctaneJunkies? But you have a 1.0l car? :P ;)

[Ads]

Just been skimming through and there's a few bits where things aren't quite accurate. Apologies if this has already been cleared up.

Heel - n - toe: As said, it's where you use the left foot to operate the clutch and the right foot press the brake and blip the accelerator to allow a driver to change down a gear smoothly whilst maintaining maximum braking and not upsetting the car balance. The main concern (with rear wheel drive) is that if the rev's are not matched during the downshift then coupled with the light rear due to braking weight transfer it is more likely that the engine will slow down or even lock the rear wheels (causing an almost irrecoverable spin) rather than the drivetrain dragging the engine up to the correct rpm.

With a non-synchromesh gearbox (race car for example) you can use this method with the normal double-declutch process to change gear. However, the double de-clutch process is quite long winded and adds an extra distraction that could compromise braking. So most race cars nowdays have small wedges cut out of the gears to allow them to engage a bit easier if the revs are not matched exactly. Thus the most common way of changing down is to disengage the higher gear without using the clutch at all (as this allows braking to be focused on) and then only half pressing the clutch with a throttle blip to engage the lower gear.

The key point is that heel-n-toe with the clutch in on a non-synchro gearbox is pointless.

On a car with synchro double declutching can cause additional wear on the synchro mesh mechanism so is not recommended. In this case, heel-n-toe with the clutch depressed is all that is required.

Most drivers prefer "walking" through the gear box so going 4-3-2 rather than 4-2 using heel-n-toe. Although there is an extra gearchange the amount of blip required is less and it is therefore likely to be a more accurate gearchange and not upset the car. The only exception I've heard to this is with big turbo cars and some prefer to simply put the gear to neutral and then still heel-n-toe agressively to maintain boost pressure.

With modern braking systems there should be no need to use the transmission to slow the car down - thats what the brakes are for. However, most manufacturers configure the front-rear brake balance assuming that a gear will be engaged. On front wheel drive this isn't such a worry but in a rear wheel drive car, riding the clutch under braking can cause the rears to lock before the fronts causing the car to be very unstable and most likely spin.

Heel-n-toe will *not* make you stop any quicker and in fact the extra driver workload can cause you to miss braking points or not brake as effectively. It's only purpose in modern cars is to allow the vehicle to enter a corner smoothly and retain maximum dynamic composure.

Left Foot Braking : this is as said primarily a rally driving technique to introduce a rotation whilst entering a corner. However a driver on track can also use this to gain an advantage or correct a car that is out of position mid-corner.

With the left foot performing the braking then this leaves the right foot available for the accelerator. Using both pedals it is possible to dynamically adjust the preset brake balance configuration of the car and either reduce rear braking and increase oversteer (rear wheel drive) or create understeer (front wheel drive). It's usefulness with front wheel drive is limited as this will increase your braking distance for generally a very minor change in vehicle rotation so is not recommended.

Left foot braking with heel 'n' toe : This is pretty much the ultimate in pedal use for entering and controllin a corner. The process is:

1) Right foot coming off the accelerator

2) Right foot onto the brake

3) Normal heel-n-toe whilst braking

4) once at the target gear and without reducing the braking the left foot moves off the clutch and onto the brake whilst the right foot moves the accelerator

5) the corner can then be controlled with both braking, throttle and steering input so the transition of the cornering phases can be very very smooth without upsetting the vehicles composure.

This will save probably 0.1 seconds on a corner and is not appropriate for every corner... however it's very easy to lose concentration whilst tap dancing on the pedals so don't do this unless you are very very confident you can hit the right pedal at the right time!

[earpl]

This will save probably 0.1 seconds on a corner and is not appropriate for every corner... however it's very easy to lose concentration whilst tap dancing on the pedals so don't do this unless you are very very confident you can hit the right pedal at the right time!

at which point after thinking about that, you've left it too late and took a s**T line in the corner :P

[mcsky]

hey mr! u laughin at my 1.0li lolz, u can laugh at the heel and toe as i don't use it but not my lil 998cc sh*tter

thats it now, i'm all syked up! bring it on TOW next yr at JAE!, WE, the OctaneJunkies shall come prepared next year with a stronger team mwahaha. we all wore flashy trainers this year, wasnt aware i was gonna do it lolz, i've got a vid of us all slipping, so funny haha.

CONGRATUMALATIONS!!!!!

:P

BTW - OctaneJunkies? But you have a 1.0l car? :P ;)

hahaha whats that chav business about!? surely ppl that wear flashy trainers arent all chavs? otherwise almost the whole population would be classed as Chavtastic! lolz

and yups tis a 1.0li, but bein in octanejunkies or any car club shouldnt mean that u have to have a big fast %$( off car tho does it lolz, if it was then its DISCRIMINATION! after all it is called a CAR CLUB. hehe i'm happy with my sh!tter anyways, still looks 1 in a million, proud to say theres only 1 in the whole universe like mine

back on topic, for me, personal opinion, heel and toe, is a nono :P

[Boro Sera]

I tried left foot braking a few times, and I think its ace - it got me round a few roundabouts at speeds that you wouldn't be able to do without it - although I never went round fast enough that y'd crash if things went a bit wrong, it let you keep a line instead of running wide and having to let off the gas & hit the brakes! (not ideal)

If you have to brake mid-corner then YOU GOT IT WRONG.

[Yaris SR Kid]

rumour has it earpl got overtaken by a 17 year old Halfords worker in a saxo, so he isnt to happy at the moment, please respect his feelings!!

Heel and toe is for mad street racers that find there cars in walls and track days only!!!

[mcsky]

lolz speaking of Halfords i quit, last working day next week mwahaha

[Gnome]

flashy trainers

Like these?

[mcsky]

hahaha not quite as flashy as those i would say lolz, they wudda looked spot on if earpl was wearing them for TOW lolz, matched the makeup n wig

[earpl]

rumour has it earpl got overtaken by a 17 year old halfords worker in a saxo, so he isnt to happy at the moment, please respect his feelings!!

Heel and toe is for mad street racers that find there cars in walls and track days only!!!

:censor: you shouldnt say anything when yu havent got a f***** clue your self............... :ffs:

it was an astra diesel........ not a saxo.........

[Ads]

I tried left foot braking a few times, and I think its ace - it got me round a few roundabouts at speeds that you wouldn't be able to do without it - although I never went round fast enough that y'd crash if things went a bit wrong, it let you keep a line instead of running wide and having to let off the gas & hit the brakes! (not ideal)

If you have to brake mid-corner then YOU GOT IT WRONG.

If you the car understeering then slow (but firm) application of the brakes can induce some oversteer.

Likewise, a quick hard stab on the brakes can actually cause understeer.

But it is true is most cases but mid corner braking can be very useful to get yourself out of otherwise nasty situations or compensate for other changes.

Braking on corner entry though is essential for quick pace.

at which point after thinking about that, you've left it too late and took a s**T line in the corner

Absolutely!!!

I've tried it a few times in my other car (which is setup for heel-n-toe) and even when practising with the car stationary I get all confused about pressing what when. It's ok now and when you get it right you can really feel the car settle into the corner properly but TBH most of the time it's not worth the extra risk!

[teekay523]

rumour has it earpl got overtaken by a 17 year old halfords worker in a saxo, so he isnt to happy at the moment, please respect his feelings!!

Heel and toe is for mad street racers that find there cars in walls and track days only!!!

:censor: you shouldnt say anything when yu havent got a f***** clue your self............... :ffs:

it was an astra diesel........ not a saxo.........

well according to clarky, he sais ur car is slower after 60mph cause his car can leave urs after that? dunno maybe the way u tuned it for a quick 0-60? plus its a bigger engine than urs init and a few 1.9 astra diesel go up to 129. so no worries mate. even a saxo VTS has a higher top end.oh and have u ever thought if the car was modded at all? but think about it for a 1.5 or anything under that we've pretty much got the fastest car on the market. :) . so hey earpl don't feel too bad mate...ur already one of the fastest NA yaris init?

mcsky... heel and toe wouldn't work in ur car cause ur gas peddle isn't sensitive enough for revs to rise quickly... same for 1.3 models. cause it takes more time for the revs to rise.

yaris sr kid... normal chav street racers don't use heel and toe. but yeah they end up in a wall haha.

heel and toe and left foot braking in my opinion is always gonna be useful if u can do it... i.e. left foot braking if u go too fast into a corner and understeer then u have the ability to make the car oversteer a bit to correct the line. high level technique that not many ppl can do. ( crapped myself first time i tried cause ur left foot isn't meant for braking lol)

heel and toe.... one thing that is never mentioned... in order to be able to put it to proper use the driver has to be able to downshift effectively in under 0.8 sec. ( excluding braking time )

i just personally think ppl don't say its useful cause they can't do it :P

[mcsky]

mcsky... heel and toe wouldn't work in ur car cause ur gas peddle isn't sensitive enough for revs to rise quickly... same for 1.3 models. cause it takes more time for the revs to rise.

lolz, er, i dont think i ever said i want to heel and toe in my yaris lolz, as many will know, my car is all show and no go category lolz, i personally dont do heel and toe, first because i know my car isnt capable, secondly i'm not into racing that much and thirdly dont see the need for it since i drive as usual everyday on the roads.

as i said earlier, heel and toe is a no no, lolz for me that is, all for show, dont wanna sound too moddest but i think my car gets more turning heads goin at 30mph than many other yaris's goin at 80mph lolz for good or for worse, still get the attention, and for modders, i think thats what they strive for, to be different and noticed for their work :D