What Are My Rights?

[Caz SR]

Hi all,

I have just heard that a former place of employment is recruiting for the position I was made redundant from, less than 6 months down the line.

Does anyone know my rights on this - I think there is a rule which states no person should fill a position which was made redundant less than two years from point of action.

I would appreciate your help as I thought this might happen and want to take it further.

Many thanks!

[earpl]

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ very very usefull people :)

[Bibbs]

Heard the same .. sorry I can't help, how about the new places HR department?

[Ryan1985]

Does it have the exact same job title? If not, there is nothing you can do.

[Fidgits]

yeah, if its exactly the position and title you were made redundant from, you may have a case of wrongful termination...

however, its a grey area, as they could claim the position was redundant 6 months ago, but due to changes it is required again...

worth talking with the CAB, find your full rights...

[Caz SR]

I have been told from a reliable friend who's still there that they are advertising this week. I shall try and obtain the advert but I know for a fact it's the same job, same title, less money.

I know this is a grey area but I won't let this go if I have a case. <_<

[Fidgits]

no, absolutley...

just be aware it could be a difficult one to fight...

[Caz SR]

Yep

But I know the animal I'm dealing with and have plenty of ammo. They are full of dodgy practices and 'redundancies' when it suits. Careful examination of their work ethic will show this... so I'll check up carefully and take it from there. Maybe just making the first approach will be enough for them to come to an agreement.

I want them to know I'm not going to let it go over my head.

[Fidgits]

okay, well you want to be as prepared as you can be before letting them know your after them...

Get as many examples as you can, dates, people, jobs. If you can track others that have been made redundant, and find people in there that have been given those jobs, that will help.

If you can find others that want to take action, that would really strengthen your cause...

Basically, just get every snippet of data, and hard facts you can - avoid hearsay or rumour, you want to attack with un-disputable evidence.

The more you can specify names, titles, and job responsbilities, the more concrete your case for wrongful termination will be.

[Caz SR]

Will do - thanks for the advice so far everyone.

I've checked out the CAB but need to make an appointment. Business Link is quite useful too.

I'll ask around my current work to see if anyone can give pointers.

Has anyone else been in the same situation?

[PaulT]

It's rubbish if you get stitched up like that, but I think you may find it very difficult to prove.

Presumably you don't want your job back, and a court is unlikely to award you much money in this sort of case. Just bear in mind you might have to put in a lot of time just to show you are right, but then get nothing of value to you for it.

Paul.

[Leeky]

Grab em by the nuts and give em hell If you get them worried they may offer you a 'settlement' :D

[Avensis wagon]

Beware the war path. You don't know the situation for sure. Should you even have a case, your ex-employers resources are greater than yours in all respects and this will touch them less than you unless you get an outright win -- and things are rarely so black and white. Whatever other misdeeds could be cited, only the very case in point is relevant if you take legal action on that particular point. If you wish to threaten the employer face-to-face, you had better have 100% and indestructable proof when it comes to broadcasting it.

I'm not having a go. Quite the opposite. I've seen people get totally consumed over fighting for what's right, and being right just isn't worth it after a year of anger, taking it too personally and paying thousands to the courts. That is to say, experience has taught me to be very worried for the well-being of people undertaking such matters. Steady as you go, don't take it personally, don't dedicate too much of yourself to this one cause. Other than that, ask CAB where you should start. :)

[Caz SR]

Thanks very much and I take your point :)

It's just my former employers have a history of treating people like this and I don't think they should get away with it.

I may not go as far as court (if I even have a case) but I would at least like them to know I'm aware of my rights (if that makes sense) as I saw many people taking this lying down at the time and I was the only one to speak up. I don't think they've had to deal with someone like me before and presume I wont care.

It's a relatively small company, less than 30 employees so I'm not taking on a 'corporate'. But I appreciate it may be a hard fight - particularly as the boss is a very astute Irish man who covers up his actions more than a dog with a bone ;)

[mikeb]

Employment solicitors love cases like these. You can get people to take it up on a no win no fee basis (not as bad as it sounds). They will let you know right from the start if you have a good case or not (if there's no case, they have no incentive to persue it). If you do have a strong case, it's quite likely that the offending company will try and settle out of court, with the help of strongly worded solicitor's letters.

[SMW]

I wouldn't have thought there is much mileage in this one as your ex employer will argue that this post is a new job with different, albeit similar, responsibilities and is therefore not a direct replacement for the redundant position.

The good news is that I would be very surprised if your ex employer followed the legal guidelines for redundancy exactly - and if he (the employer) didn't then you have case for unfair dismissal should you choose to follow it.

Clicky for the employers obligations when exercising redundancy

[Avensis wagon]

I've seen a 'watertight' case where the other party is so clearly wrong and is simply playing a game before they back down and settle -- according to your lawyer and indeed your own moral thinking.

There's a chance it will happen, but what happens if the other party doesn't settle and plays it out to the bitter end? Months of costly correspondence between each parties' lawyer before it makes it to court. Perhaps the other party starts bringing in more people to up the costs. Expert witnesses, why not? And even if the no win no fee lawyer takes no fee, if you loose who pays for the court costs and the fees of the winning party's lawyer?

Actually, I don't know the answers to these questions in the UK but I know them well over here. The suggestions above may be very good, but it could be you that bares the brunt. "It'll be fine" and "They'll pay up, no worries" are not satisfactory answers from your lawyer when considering action. If the other party doesn't back down, how will things progress and how far will they go? If it goes to court and you loose or fault is found with both parties, how much will it cost you? Be absolutely satisfied with the answers to these questions and more before you start a process you can't stop -- e.g. if you get nervous and back down half way, will the other party now holding all the cards now seek to recover the legal costs you incurred him. In fact, being a business the other party may have an insurance of such quality that he looses nothing/has nothing to loose.

Maybe things look better in the UK?

[Boro Sera]

Why not aply for the job ( under an assumed name of course ) - Then when you get in for an interview.............Off comes the false beard, Out comes the concealed super-soaker water gun and let 'em have it; possibly filled with cat pee rather than water too......just for added effect !

[Demonic Angel]

Cant really add anything as everyone else has already said it but I just wanted to wish you the best of luck if you decide to go ahead with this Caz - its just not right that employers can get away with it!

[PaulT]

its just not right that employers can get away with it! 

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I think you have to be a bit careful setting your expectations of the employment market today.

Here's a difficult, hypothetical, question: if a manager believes they can replace employee with a cheaper person who could do the same job, and arranges for that firing and hiring to happen, is it wrong? (Never mind the (il)legality or the method.)

Paul.

[Avensis wagon]

Right or wrong is a little subjective, especially taking into consideration different sides of the fence. But I'd say it's objectively bad for all concerned if hard work, a conciencious attitude and loyalty are repaid this way -- 'good' employees are lost and in time the entire lablour force assumes the 'what difference does it make?' attitude. Only in jobs like strawberry picking does wipping employees offer employers small advantages and a fast employee turnover makes little difference. Mind you, I wouldn't care for the quality of the product produced under such duress unless the employees were threatened with the death penalty. :)

Depends on the field and nature of employment, but if it's 'professional' I'd say it's short-sighted and rather immature management, let alone contemptable to put my own subjective twist on things. Or to put it another way, I personally wouldn't attempt to increase my profits by firing a proven employee who had kept all accounts happy and hiring an unkown who may walk out after a month's less than average work. The employee continues to offer a proposition which is hard, or foolish, to turn down. I suppose it does depend on the field of business.

[PaulT]

Well I think if management in general was a little more creative that would help a lot.

From the manager's point of view, I guess the employees in your group who are doing a good job are becoming more experienced and expensive to employ as time goes by. The question is what do you do to keep costs under control, make your group productive and keep the workers happy?

Ideally you would be able to move your best people on to a better job. I guess what happens a lot of the time, though, is that in a small company you don't have anything to offer in terms of career progression.

I worked as a software developer for a company a couple of years ago. There were three of us, and having been there for a few years you would think management would have a career plan for good employees. In practice they just don't have the time to do much other than just keep the department going as is. Eventually two of us had to leave in order to improve our career prospects.

I do have some sympathy for middle management. They've got the senior bosses demanding better performance constantly whilst usually providing the minimum level of resources to run the group. Cutting costs is the easy option to increase profitability, and that usually means reducing the wage bill somehow. Can't be an easy decision, but if getting rid of one or two high flyers means the group stays profitable, they'll find a way to do it.

My view is that we are more and more likely these days to have our current job ending in something like redundancy, as opposed to promotion. As industry becomes even more competitive, employees are having to move between jobs more often.

When I got my current job I wondered how long it would last. At the moment, regardless of my own performance, I doubt it will last a year. Just have to keep one step ahead and keep something ready for when it ends.

Paul.

[Avensis wagon]

Very fair points there. It seems that things are so efficient and competition and margins so tight that the deal is getting rougher and driving the every man/woman for his/her self lifestyle. It's not pleasant for anyone. Odd really, given that the work we all do is meant to improve society as a whole and the quality of life. What we have is a rat race. Perhaps everything should be modelled on a cooperative.

[Caz SR]

Thank you for your replies so far everyone :)

Just for your info, I'm a Designer Artworker. Unforunately the industry is plagued with redundancies - in my short career so far (5 years since graduating) I have been made redundant twice.

It doesn't get any easier to deal with, but thankfully I have managed to go onto bigger and better things each time - so I completely agree with Paul's points.

I am meeting with my former colleague today to get some more information on the post they're advertising and have asked people to look out for the advert.

[jay dh]

good luck with this, although keep well during this, dont want you falling ill or something from stress