Death Penalty

[Fidgits]

that, i think, sums it up perfectly...

no matter how bad the punishments are, there will be those still stupid enough to believe they can get away with the crime...

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stupidity does not excuse you.

Nor does it remove your personal accountability and responsibility for your actions.

It does not make an argument for or against anything.

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I know.

But i stand by my original statement (that feels so long ago), which is, we cannot punish those for commiting a crime, by commiting the same crime they did...

If you take someones life purely by protecting your own, that is justifiable homicide, planning, conciously taking someones life is first degree murder, regardless of the circumstances.

[DaveSR]

I think the punishment should fit the crime as every case is individual and cannot be generalised into a certain category !

If somebody has murdered a lot of people then this person should be hanged, as it doesn't matter what prison you put them in your still going to be paying for them, which I think is wrong as they took the easy option in life to sort out their problems!

I think they should update the legal system and have something like pop idol where you hear the persons crime and you text in a ), b ), or c )!

It would definitely make things more interesting !

[Matthew_McNally]

I know.

But i stand by my original statement (that feels so long ago), which is, we cannot punish those for commiting a crime, by commiting the same crime they did...

thats your opinion mate, which I'll respect.

If you take someones life purely by protecting your own, that is justifiable homicide, planning, conciously taking someones life is first degree murder, regardless of the circumstances.

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if by commiting this act you (on balance) save one life or more, as a result of either preventing a repeat offence, or by deterring someone else from commiting crimes - is society better or worse off?

[Fidgits]

I know.

But i stand by my original statement (that feels so long ago), which is, we cannot punish those for commiting a crime, by commiting the same crime they did...

thats your opinion mate, which I'll respect.

As i respect yours...

If you take someones life purely by protecting your own, that is justifiable homicide, planning, conciously taking someones life is first degree murder, regardless of the circumstances.

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if by commiting this act you (on balance) save one life or more, as a result of either preventing a repeat offence, or by deterring someone else from commiting crimes - is society better or worse off?

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Well, if the prison system was successful, and they were incacerated for life, then the only people they would be able to murder are other prisoners, which could be avoided by solitary confinement.

But i stand by the fact, if law states it is illegal to intentionally take someones life, then you cannot have the death penalty, its hypocriticial.

[Matthew_McNally]

Well, if the prison system was successful, and they were incacerated for life, then the only people they would be able to murder are other prisoners, which shouldnt bother you too much ;)

no - I wouldn't be losing sleep over that :D

But i stand by the fact, if law states it is illegal to intentionally take someones life, then you cannot have the death penalty, its hypocriticial.

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but - the debate is about whether the law should be changed.

And - you didnt answer my question :P

If - by executing a criminal, one or more lives are saved or improved as either the prevention of a repeat offence, or as a deterrant - is society better or worse off?

Are we better off as a society to have 1 multiple rapist alive and in jail and 2 (or more) innocent women raped? Or to have that rapist dead, and those women unmolested?

Or 1 paedophile alive and in jail, and multiple kids having their lives ruined as a result of sexual assault? Or 1 dead paedophile, and unmolested children?

[Fidgits]

Well, if the prison system was successful, and they were incacerated for life, then the only people they would be able to murder are other prisoners, which shouldnt bother you too much ;)

no - I wouldn't be losing sleep over that :D

But i stand by the fact, if law states it is illegal to intentionally take someones life, then you cannot have the death penalty, its hypocriticial.

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but - the debate is about whether the law should be changed.

And - you didnt answer my question :P

If - by executing a criminal, one or more lives are saved or improved as either the prevention of a repeat offence, or as a deterrant - is society better or worse off?

Are we better off as a society to have 1 multiple rapist alive and in jail and 2 (or more) innocent women raped? Or to have that rapist dead, and those women unmolested?

Or 1 paedophile alive and in jail, and multiple kids having their lives ruined as a result of sexual assault? Or 1 dead paedophile, and unmolested children?

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okay...

I was going to quote your 'cutsey' post, but you cant multi quote over multi pages... so just to refresh Matthew, you were the one that said you cannot justify crime by putting a 'cutsey' front on it ;)

No, i dont think the law should be changed, because as i said, if we say it is illegal to intentionally take someones life, then were cannot justify the legal system doing this.

As for your examples - IF the criminal system was fixed (i mean by this, proper prisons, proper sentancing, NOT death penalty) those people would already have been killed, those women would have already been raped before the person was arressted.

Whether or not we had the death penalty, those women would still be murdered and raped. We cant go all Minority Report and killing people for something they will do in the future, so your question is really irreleavent, and as we have already agreed, we cannot prove or disprove whether capital punishment is an effective deterrant.

Abosultley, if you could prove to me, that the UK having the death penalty will stop all murders and rapes, i'd be outside number 10 tomorrow with a placard! But we both know that wont happen, it might not even have an effect.

Now, jumping back to your example, as you said previously, we have proper judgement etc - so working on this basis, how can you say, having the death penalty would change anything? Judges would dole it out only in the worst cases, as a last resort, to criminals, that, lets face it, probably wont see the light of day again.

The judge may not give a rapist the death penalty, and he may serve 15 years, and be released and go out and rape again anyway, and sure, the second time around, he might be given the death penalty or just end up behind bars until the day he dies.

Two women will still have been raped, what difference would the death penalty make to their lives? they will have still been raped, and the man responsible will die without ever being free, does it matter whether its 10 weeks or 10 years?

[seveer unaek]

In Dubai, they've created something called 'The World' an arteficial holiday resort that's made up of man-made islands to make it look like an atlas. It's huge and each country is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Surely if all the large powers in the world could do something like this on a much less luxurious scale we'd have no overflowing prisons, we could just throw all the scum onto an island and let them fend for themselves. They swim... the sharks have them. They cause trouble... the other inmates kill them. The scum would have their very own place to be with other scum and not affect the rest of us.

Ok, this is very much year 2500 kind of crap (like Jet Li's 'The One') but the further away scum are, the better it will be for all of us!

In terms of the death penalty, i believe that for any form of murder then you die. If a man rapes a woman or abuses a child then chop his bo**ocks off... he does it again... kill him.

It should be a graduated system, with the jails being horrible places with regular beatings and regular manual labour cleaning sewers or something. If you don't want to do it... then don't commit crimes.

[Bibbs]

Can we make a power station by burning paedo's, rapists, murders and fog light drivers?

Surely that's win/win .. we don't have to make nuclear power plants, and the buggers are put to some good use.

It's a "glitter-station" ..

[Bibbs]

In Dubai, they've created something called 'The World' an arteficial holiday resort that's made up of man-made islands to make it look like an atlas. It's huge and each country is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Surely if all the large powers in the world could do something like this on a much less luxurious scale we'd have no overflowing prisons, we could just throw all the scum onto an island and let them fend for themselves. They swim... the sharks have them. They cause trouble... the other inmates kill them. The scum would have their very own place to be with other scum and not affect the rest of us.

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It was called Australia ;) But then they found out it was nicer than England :P

[Fidgits]

In Dubai, they've created something called 'The World' an arteficial holiday resort that's made up of man-made islands to make it look like an atlas. It's huge and each country is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Surely if all the large powers in the world could do something like this on a much less luxurious scale we'd have no overflowing prisons, we could just throw all the scum onto an island and let them fend for themselves. They swim... the sharks have them. They cause trouble... the other inmates kill them. The scum would have their very own place to be with other scum and not affect the rest of us.

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It was called Australia ;) But then they found out it was nicer than England :P

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how can a place with dodgy accents and the most venomous of most creatures (including the only venomous mammal on the planet) be considered nicer than good ole blighty?

[seveer unaek]

how can a place with dodgy accents and the most venomous of most creatures (including the only venomous mammal on the planet) be considered nicer than good ole blighty?

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It's warm, sunny and the people drink beer and have BBQ's on a very regular basis.

Sounds like english folk in summer!

[earpl]

RIP tookie :(

[Boro Sera]

The christians slaughtered thousands of Pagans on this very island for refusing to denounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity, I would like to think, in this modern age, we are more civilised than that.

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No, we're far more advanced now, and the equal opportunities commission would ensure that everyone has the right to be slaughtered, not just the pagans.

[GIDDLEPIN]

Why not have "Self Execution"?

Everybody knows that the majority of crimes are drug related so why not leave dustbins full of heroin, crack cocaine or what ever is needed, on every street corner so as to leave murderers, rapists, child molesters, free to ingest, inject or inhale as much as they wanted, free of charge. ;)

[Fidgits]

Why not have "Self Execution"?

Everybody knows that the majority of crimes are drug related so why not leave dustbins full of heroin, crack cocaine or what ever is needed, on every street corner so as to leave murderers, rapists, child molesters, free to ingest, inject or inhale as much as they wanted, free of charge. ;)

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now im all for allowing prisoners to take their own lives...

i think we should stop taking their belts and shoelaces off them, if they want to take the easy route, then its their choice...

[Boro Sera]

RIP tookie :(

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Peace through death that he refused to find in life??

[Tegan]

Everyone keeps saying the system should be graduated - it is graduated! - nobody gets the death sentence for stealing an Apple!

These are hideous crimes that he has committed - and regarding 'avensis wagon' statement 'if the people who he has wronged get a sense of fulfillment by watching him die- then they are sad'

The only way you can comment on this is if you have been through it - if any of my family were murdered - id want to pull the trigger myself! He has taken one of your family forever- you dont want to see justice? im not saying its a joyous time for anybody but there has to be some sort of 'closure' as the yanks call it

[MIP]

I do also like MIP's theory of rewarding or punishing prisoners working in factories. Maybe they would learn from it, maybe not. This would be particularly good punishment for crimes such as theft, anti-social behaviour... ie teaching them to have respect for others, that's what seems to be lacking in this country at the moment.

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there are fine upstanding citizens in this country who are out of work through no fault of their own.

and you want to give jobs to criminals.

Thats not really what I was getting at in my idea. You wouldn't pay these criminals. The prison system costs money, and I'm thinking forfieting the rights of criminals as normal human beings and treating them as a resource to make money from would be more beneficial.

E.g. instead of nike employing managers and renting a factory and paying local tax out in the middle east, they rent a space conjoined onto a prison in the UK and get a free workforce motivated to work by their own quality of life, contributing to the UK economy.

I would have thought it would be more of a punishment as well as more worth while financially to keep a killer in such a dull opressive system for the rest of their life (whilst making money off their hard work) than grant them the mercy of death?

[jaxx]

without quoting half the froum i agree with all Mcnallys points hes made

[Avensis wagon]

These are hideous crimes that he has committed - and regarding 'avensis wagon' statement 'if the people who he has wronged get a sense of fulfillment by watching him die- then they are sad'

The only way you can comment on this is if you have been through it - if any of my family were murdered - id want to pull the trigger myself! He has taken one of your family forever- you dont want to see justice? im not saying its a joyous time for anybody but there has to be some sort of 'closure' as the yanks call it

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Nice to get a mention!

Since you used the conditional you would by your own argumentation not have been in that situation and therefore also be unable to comment.

But you know something? I could kill to stop a serious attack on my family, if the killer started laughing at me two days later I wouldn’t be surprised if I had a go. But to sit there years later when it’s all done and they’re not coming back, witnessing the killer’s execution wouldn’t make me any happier. I’d feel sub-human. Removal from society is enough. Perhaps life should mean life, though.

And if the conviction is in error, where there’s life there’s always a chance.

[Tegan]

These are hideous crimes that he has committed - and regarding 'avensis wagon' statement 'if the people who he has wronged get a sense of fulfillment by watching him die- then they are sad'

The only way you can comment on this is if you have been through it - if any of my family were murdered - id want to pull the trigger myself! He has taken one of your family forever- you dont want to see justice? im not saying its a joyous time for anybody but there has to be some sort of 'closure' as the yanks call it

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Nice to get a mention!

Since you used the conditional you would by your own argumentation not have been in that situation and therefore also be unable to comment.

But you know something? I could kill to stop a serious attack on my family, if the killer started laughing at me two days later I wouldn’t be surprised if I had a go. But to sit there years later when it’s all done and they’re not coming back, witnessing the killer’s execution wouldn’t make me any happier. I’d feel sub-human. Removal from society is enough. Perhaps life should mean life, though.

And if the conviction is in error, where there’s life there’s always a chance.

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Fair point ;) but by no means could you call them 'sad' for wanting to see him die? As some people said above , death is not scary for these criminals by that admission it would be even more cruel to let them rot in jail - so the familys and the legal system are doing them a favour , no?

[Clueless]

Removal from society is enough. Perhaps life should mean life, though.

And if the conviction is in error, where there’s life there’s always a chance.

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I agree with this. Life imprisonment should mean Natural Life not a predetermined period of time.

Executions are not the answer ,by all accounts, they do not act as a deterrent.

[spotipus]

the bloke murdered 4 people the state murdered one!!!

i cant say its an ideal situation but why should the state support the life of a murderer? the only comment i have on this guy is that it should have happened sooner.

my main gripe about this is if there were an actual punishnent for a crime in this country then maybe prison would actually turn out to be a detterant!!!

first in line for the hangmans noose should be the !Removed! do gooders who have turned prisons into holiday camps.

small example of this for you

i have a friend of a friend who is high up in the CPS

a prison visitor complained about a newly opened custody suite in stoke on trent because.......................

THE TOWELS WERE TOO SMALL :ffs:

AND THERE WASNT A VEGETARIAN MENU :ffs:

[Blue84]

I'm all for it too, but only in extreme cases..people who do things like continually murder people over many years for example definately deserve it.

[alanbradley]

Now this is an interesting one...

You see, the thing is that I think that punishments should fit crimes and I think that prisons should be miserable, uncomfortable places where people will never want to go.

BUT

I could never say "I condemn you to death" and neither would I vote for the death penalty in any referendum there may be - its just not, imho, "RIGHT" in my view of the world.

If there does have to be a death penalty though, and my opinions are over-ridden, then I would rather it was of the "You! Out the back! Now!" type then the US way where people suffer for years and the only people that benefit are to lawyers... :(

A