Battery, Alternator, Or Something Else?

[madder]

Ok, so I have a 1997 Carina E Leanburn Sli. Recently just before the car test, a local qwik fitter replced my Battery. He told me that the clamp was old and rusted and to keep an eye on it, and think about changing it. He said that the car could cut out and if that ever happened to check that first.

Recently, that did happen! Well, it didn't cut out. It just wouldn't start. I moved the terminal clamp and it started straight away. However, it would only run strongly for 5 minutes or so, and then cut out if I didn't accelerate. After 15 minutes or so, it would stay running, no problems, but sometimes the revs would be running themselves(giving the impression of acceleration even if I didn't put my foot on the pedal).

Anyway, I replaced the positive terminal clamp and it's no longer rusty or loose. The car starts first time, all the time now, but I still have the stalling after 5 minutes problem(unless I accelerate) and now it seems to take 20 minutes at least before it stays ticking over without accelerarion. The revs have stopped reving thmesleves since the clamp change too.

Any suggestions or help on this one?

[Mooly]

Electronics don't like voltage interuptions/spikes. What I would do is make sure the terminal clamps are genuinely 100% good and then disconnect the negative and leave it for at least a couple of hours... preferably with a cold engine. Then reconnect, start engine but don't drive it yet, leave it to reach normal temperature, then drive for 5 miles or so of mixed driving and see if problem fixed. That will force the ECU to relearn all values and hopefully be OK

If not and the car was OK before all this then I'm afraid you may have problems... if so repeat but leave disconnected overnight.

You will have to reprogram the one touch electric windows after Battery disconnection... window fully down, then hold the buton to raise and keep it held for 15 seconds or so after the window reaches the top.

[Jamesbelfast]

It may be worth checking the engine coolant temperature sensor and its electrcial connections. If faulty the ECU may think the engine is either always hot or always cold.:)

[madder]

Thanks for the responses so far:

Update:

Just back from a trip in the car now.

Started the car and stayed in Neutral. The revs were almost up to 2. Over the course of the next 5 to 7 minutes the revs steadily dropped. By 7 minutes they were just under 1.

At this point there was still no sign of any faint lights on on the dashboard.

At 10 minutes the revs dropped to 0.7

I hadn't touched the accelerator at all up til now.

At 15 minutes I decided to take it out for a drive. 16 minutes I stopped at the traffic lights, and it still didn't cut out.

In total, I drove for about 35 minutes and the car didn't cut out or show any faint lights on the dashboard.

And yet, I'm still confident that I'll get at least one of these problems tomorrow morning, especially if I decide to drive straight away. Thing is, it always starts back up again at the first point of asking.

Just to clear up a couple of things, in case they're relevant? The negative terminal Battery clamp is very tight and with my ratchet set, I couldn't loosen it. The positive one was much the same only it wasn't tight around the terminal pole before I changed it. However, while I was changing the positive clamp, and due to the ratchet problems, I had to leave the negative terminal clamp in place while working on the positive one. I covered the negative terminal with Rubber and wore rubber gloves myself while I changed the positive terminal clamp. It took hours as it had to be hacked off with a hacksaw. I wonder whether or not that would make a difference to my situation and can you guys advise further on this extra info?

[Mooly]

Rubber gloves... there's no shock hazard from 12 volts :)

You say you are just back from a trip... so you haven't disconnected the Battery to do the reset ?

The problem is that every time the connection (either pos or neg) is made and broken intermitantly it creates the risk of causing the ECU to behave strangely... you must have experienced this with other electronic items where they malfunction or lock up and the cure is to switch off, remove batteries etc. Doing that enables the electronics to correctly reset when power is re applied and hopefully to work correctly. With the car Battery it's best to try and make and break the connection cleanly... don't dither :)

[madder]

Rubber gloves... there's no shock hazard from 12 volts :)

You say you are just back from a trip... so you haven't disconnected the battery to do the reset ?

The problem is that every time the connection (either pos or neg) is made and broken intermitantly it creates the risk of causing the ECU to behave strangely... you must have experienced this with other electronic items where they malfunction or lock up and the cure is to switch off, remove batteries etc. Doing that enables the electronics to correctly reset when power is re applied and hopefully to work correctly. With the car battery it's best to try and make and break the connection cleanly... don't dither :)

So I have to remove the negative terminal and leave it off for a few hours to do the reset? The problem is that I cannot remove the nuts and bolts. They're simply rusted into place?

I can remove the positive one since thats the brand new one, but would that do the same job? Either way, the positive one was off for easily 3 or 4 hours yesterday?

[Mooly]

Yes either will do... disconect and leave as already mentioned... then reconnect smartly and tighten the clamp. Then let it idle

from cold to relearn the values. During the learning the revs may hunt/vary quite a bit... that's normal.

good luck, let us know how it all works out.

[madder]

Thanks Mooly. I'll let you know tomorrow!

[madder]

Everything seemed fine this morning. It took a little while to warm up. I reset the windows and that too. No warning lights and the car stayed on. Hopefully thats the thing solved. Thanks guys.

[Mooly]

That's good :)

[madder]

I'm back guys. :-(

Well I went for a 2 hour drive yesterday and then today I started the car and it was back to running perfectly for 5 minutes. And then when I slowed down at a roundabout the car engine cut out. The radio and lights stayed on. If I accelerate in time, the engine comes back on before I stop. However, if I'm approaching red lights I have to slow down and stop and the car engine cuts out, radio stays on, as do the lights and the car makes a click sound and then I have to restart it. It always restarts perfectly immediately. And then once it's running for around 10 minutes, It'll go without any problems and for as long as I want when it's warmed up. No more cutting out problems.

Any ideas?

[Mooly]

That's a pity... so the question is whether this is in fact anything to do with the previous Battery problems or coincidently another issue.

Only things that come to mind would problems such as a dirty throttle assembly or a problem with any idle or auxiliary control by pass valves. So many "possibles"... even something like a problem with the coolant sensor sending out of tolerance info etc... but I wouldn't like to just guess. And I don't believe in coincidences either... if it was 100% before all this.

Perhaps others reading this might have some ideas

[madder]

The reason I attributed it to the Battery terminal was because the Quick Fit guy told me the terminal clamp wasn't sitting as tightly as it should be. He said it's badly rusted and should be changed as soon as I can. He said if the car has trouble starting to check that first. A couple of months passed without a problem. And then I had 4 or 5 days of having to open the hood, make sure the clamp was on properly, start the car, keep it revving for 10 minutes until it was running properly. When I was changing the clamp, it took hours. Now that the clamp has been changed, and the new one is tight, I no longer have to make sure that it's on right. The car always starts at the first key turn. It's just the power loss after 5 minutes that's the problem now. Even when it cuts out, it always starts up again at the first turn of the key. And then, once it's running for a while, it's perfectly fine until it's left for a few hours again. To me it seems like the Battery is losing it's charge? But it must not be that simple it if starts first go every time and the likes of the radio stays on and that?

And another thing, if it's late at night and there is no trafiic and a straight open road like a motorway or something, I can drive it straight away. Once it's revving, it'll stay on.

I just wonder if the terminal poles on the Battery have some slight damage, might that be the problem? The positive one is kind of scratched from where the old clamp was forced around it. It's slightly chipped too.

[Mooly]

Don't really know what to suggest. The Battery terminals won't be a problem, the metal is very soft and it's normal for the clamp to bite into it. If it's tightly clamped it's fine.

As mentioned it sounds more like a problem with the idle control valve... but you need expert diagnosis.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6046295_signs-idle-air-control-sensor.html

Also worth checking the correct plugs are fitted and that the ignition side of things is in good order.

[madder]

ok Mooly, thanks

[madder]

Mooly, I've just read that link you included and it is describing my exact problem. From the info on the link I'd say that my IAC valve is clogged. I have heard that it can be cleaned with carburetor cleaner? If it's sprayed into the Throttle valve? Now I know this looks like I know what I'm talking about, but I don't! This is just stuffed I've heard or read through research.

I'm very willing to try to do this cleaning. But I have absolutely no idea where the IAC valve is or how to get to the throttle valve and where to spray the carburetor cleaner?

Can you/or anyone else help or illustrate?

Thanks.

[Mooly]

Perhaps if you start a new thread asking specifically how to access and clean those parts, and link it to this thread too... I've not owned a Carina E myself so can't give specific details on that... but I'm sure some on this forum must have worked on these items.

[Mooly]

Seen the other thread...

Have you looked in a Haynes book for details ?

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=13169&langId=-1

Local libraries often have these... and library catalogues are usually online so you can see which libraries have what.

Just thinking a bit more on this... and this is only from things remembered, maybe not all specific to the carina... but the idle speed is controlled by allowing more or less air into the engine. With the throttle closed there is sometimes a small air bypass valve and sometimes the throttle itself is electrically driven to the correct position. The engine management system compare the actual revs against the "design" value and adjusts one or both the above to maintain that.

With the engine idling and hot... if you have AC turn it off... and switch on the heated rear window and watch the revs drop as the extra load makes the alternator harder to turn, you can also put headlights on too. After a second or two the revs should automatically increase. Do they ?

Doesn't in itself prove much possibly... other than the idle speed is being corrected at that point in time. Worth just seeing though.