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Do I Regret Selling The T180


Rick D4D
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The part regarding high repair bills outside of warranty is EXACTLY the point.

those aren't unique to Toyota though but are common across modern high pressure common rail turbodiesels from many if not all manufacturers.

It is why i returned to petrol.

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Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleimagezoom.r66.co.uk/?Theme=Toyota&Id=601322241&DefaultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

Rick if i were you id sent that post off as a letter or email to Toyota :thumbsup:

Red diesel

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Well from the sound of it Toyota have moved all their diesel research resources to HSD development so I suspect our D4Ds will be among the last generation of diesel engines made by Toyota :(

The Mk3 Yaris looks like it will be the first of the new cars to have lost its diesel engine but gets a HSD.

It really is a pity because the 1.4 D4D in the Yaris is a fantastic engine :(

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Well from the sound of it Toyota have moved all their diesel research resources to HSD development so I suspect our D4Ds will be among the last generation of diesel engines made by Toyota :(

& iirc Honda stopped diesel development a couple of years ago too.

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It will be a sad day! I like my derv! :crybaby:

I do look forward to new electric developments, but no pure electric car is going to have the range of a diesel and current hybrids just aren't as fun to drive! (Although I may be eating those words depending on how they set up the Yaris HSD :D)

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current hybrids just aren't as fun to drive!

Try a GS450h - I was loaned one for a day and it was lovely - one of the best cars I've ever driven in many respects.

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Thats a good point, but the cost at the pump isn't the whole story these days.

It used to be that Diesel cars made up enough of a gain in MPG that the price wasn't enough to make it a worry as the cost per mile was still cheaper.

In Ricks situation, he is saving money at the pump, and per mile simply because the Hybrid is pushing the MPG up considerably, and his Auris was poor (even compared to most others).

That said, i do agree about preferring a diesel engine, but more for the way they drive than the cost of running.

I can see me keeping my Auris for 3 years, by which time i hope to see a diesel hybrid available that drives well and looks good enough to park on the drive.

Time will tell, but for now i'm more than happy with my Auris, but considering the amount of issues i had with my last car (Mondeo ST TDCI) my Auris would have to be a pedal car in order for it to be worse!

Good luck with the Honda Rick :thumbsup:

Thats the point Dave with the torque of the electric motor the CRZ is like a diesel with its strength but with no turbo lag and lets be honest the T180/SR180 has a massive turbo lag. The T180 was useless of the lights as by the time the turbo come in you would pull back the lost distance for then to loose this again changing to second gear, according to the 0-60 times the CRZ is around 1.5seconds slower than the T180 but I tell you for 100% sure the CRZ would win every time form the lights. Dont underestimate Hybrids as the electric motors really do make up for the lack of power from the eco lean petrol engines, as for a diesel hybrid the rumours are that the next euro regs due in 2013 will kill most diesels off.

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Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleimagezoom.r66.co.uk/?Theme=Toyota&Id=601322241&DefaultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

Rick if i were you id sent that post off as a letter or email to Toyota :thumbsup:

Red diesel

I honestly can not see what this will achieve after I had one of the Toyota UK guys test our car over 2 days and then right me a BS letter claiming he got good MPG on the car and that it must be down to the fuel we use, when I got the car back it had 47.3MPG on the average trip over 138miles and I thought WTF? but even before I had done half a mile that had dropped by 2MPG which said he had reset the trip and coasted back into Toyota to make it look good as all of you will know the average trip does not drop like a lead balloon when you have covered 138miles.

When I challenged him on the phone about this I was just given the average PR BS lines but I did remember all this when buying another car and did the best thing I could do to help him keep his cushy job and bought another brand "Honda". I personally believe over the last 5 years that Toyota has really dropped the ball with quality control and design and are now beginning to pay the price for this and how can they not know about the MPG issues with T180/SR180 models and how can they not find a problem when MPG can be around 15MPG / 40-50% less than they claim? I think Toyota cant afford in cost or public press to admit the problems and put them right and take the approach that as these account for only about 10% of the range or less that this will go away in time when warranties run out.

Obviously this is only my opinion and I could be wrong but then why did Toyota UK deny there was a problem with our car when the evidence speaks for it self?

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@T600 - Is that the same as this car? http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Summary.aspx?model=1371

It says it's a 3.5L V6 Hybrid! :eek:

As for the CR-Z... it is a nice car; Wouldn't be practical for me I think :lol:. Haven't had the opportunity to try one out alas!

It would be interesting to compare real-life feel for me since, on paper, it is only slightly better than my diesel Yaris for performance and slightly worse for fuel consumption but as with a lot of things I suspect that doesn't tell the whole story :)

I did notice there is a manual option for the CR-Z though so they must have it set up in a completely different way to the HSD's... is the electric motor is connected like an F1 KERS unit??

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The CRZ to be fair is a 2 seater + 2 rear seats for children under 10 but I test drove an Auris Hybrid and MPG was very good and the hybrid system but with the CVT transmission it was not a drivers car, now the CRZ does not have a F1 style kers :( but does have 3 x engine map settings eco, normal and sport and if you want to go quicker and you have the charge then the sport mode transforms the car. I think a lot of the MPG gains come from the stop start system that is very good and on a point of diesel I am currently in the south of Spain and have noticed diesel is around 15-20cents cheaper than petrol and IMO this would make a diesel car very attractive and cheaper to run even with a dpf were as in the UK diesel is now 6-10p more than petrol.

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Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleimagezoom.r66.co.uk/?Theme=Toyota&Id=601322241&DefaultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

Rick if i were you id sent that post off as a letter or email to Toyota :thumbsup:

Red diesel

I honestly can not see what this will achieve after I had one of the Toyota UK guys test our car over 2 days and then right me a BS letter claiming he got good MPG on the car and that it must be down to the fuel we use, when I got the car back it had 47.3MPG on the average trip over 138miles and I thought WTF? but even before I had done half a mile that had dropped by 2MPG which said he had reset the trip and coasted back into Toyota to make it look good as all of you will know the average trip does not drop like a lead balloon when you have covered 138miles.

When I challenged him on the phone about this I was just given the average PR BS lines but I did remember all this when buying another car and did the best thing I could do to help him keep his cushy job and bought another brand "Honda". I personally believe over the last 5 years that Toyota has really dropped the ball with quality control and design and are now beginning to pay the price for this and how can they not know about the MPG issues with T180/SR180 models and how can they not find a problem when MPG can be around 15MPG / 40-50% less than they claim? I think Toyota cant afford in cost or public press to admit the problems and put them right and take the approach that as these account for only about 10% of the range or less that this will go away in time when warranties run out.

Obviously this is only my opinion and I could be wrong but then why did Toyota UK deny there was a problem with our car when the evidence speaks for it self?

I was more thinking of the "switching brand to Honda bit" when i suggested sending that post as an email or letter to Toyota, Clearly the clowns at Toyota didn't give a :censor: about your fuel consumption when you actually owned the car (otherwise they might have fixed it). But they might just start taking interest in these problems if they see that they are losing repeat business. But of course they may indeed not give a hoot in which case they don't deserve anyones business lol. You expect that if there are issues with a car that a manufacturer will move mountains to fix it in order to keep the customer happy. I was browsing through Jaguar Monthly there the other day at a newsagents - and they had a used car buying guide on the first model XJ8. Now the early models of these had the Nikasil linings in the cylinder bores like BMW and Jaguar had exactly the same problem with high Sulphur levels in petrol during the 1990s causing wear in the Nikasil lining. Now heres the thing

Jaguar Monthly pointed out that this could have put Jaguars reputation on the line. But Jaguar (according to the magazine) replaced the Nikasil

engines with later steel lined engines free of charge if the car had less than 100 000 miles done. Thus appearently protecting their reputation.

Best of luck with the CRZ

Red diesel

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Have you missed all the posts about Toyota replacing engines due to head gasket issues, and extending the warranty from 3yrs/60k to 7yrs/112k?

Bad fuel consumption is tricky to blame on a car or a driver, as there are too many variants. Regardless of where the problem was, the car was running as it should (wasn't breaking down etc), but it was thirsty.

Rick was right to ask for it to be checked over, but if nothing can be found, then what can you do?

Fair play to Rick for looking elsewhere, i think many people would do the same, but i have to say that i have seen first hand, and read many times on here, that Toyota's customer care is far above some other brands.

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Toyota customer care as regards any physical issue or defect was first class and probably hard to beat but as far as the MPG issue this was very poor but would another manufacturer be better? I doubt it. The problem is because the ecu does not register a fault then there is no problem but I assure you I am very confident the issue was with the car and not us or driving style because if we can get with in 3MPG of what Honda quote for extra urban driving then why did I struggle to even get close to the town driving on the T180? The Toyota guy said over the phone that the extra urban figure was never achievable in real driving so the car is only capable of the combined figure and he achieved that (I doubt this very much see earlier post) so there is no problem. Well we can get within 3-5% of Honda's extra urban figure so I doubt it is us or our driving but as for the extended warranty on head gasket that would not explian our MPG issues and this would not cover a very expensive DPF to be replaced and this IMO was on its way out and why our MPG was dropping so much over the last 12months of ownership. I mean we used to get around 43-45MPG on a run and in the end my wife got 30MPG on a weekly fill up (down from 42MPG same runs) and when I took the car on a 130 mile motorway - a road run I only got 32MPG! WTF please tell me this is normal at a steady 70MPH cruise control run.

Yes Toyota customer service was very good but then again Honda are good and local dealer for sure not as good as Toyota but the the Honda dealer we bought the car from was loads better than the Toyota dealer we bought the car from. Add to that the last Honda (Civic Type R) only ever had 1 warranty claim (back lights misting up) and 0 recall where as the T180 had 9 warranty claims (new front carpet, 4 x new wheels, 1 drivers seat cover, 1 new passenger seat frame which also had 2 covers and still did not fit right, 2 rear side cards and know one ever sat in the back, rear Badge trim, wiper arms, handbrake, airbag trim and the back lights used to steam up but never claimed for this) and 2 recalls (steering and throttle peddle) in my ownership then I think the facts speak for themselves.

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I don't think any of the major manufacturers can be judged on how many recalls affect them, it is more important to sort them quickly without undue fuss

Toyota were praised for their handling of the pedal recall, the speed in which it was completed worldwide has never been seen before by ANY manufacturer EVER

Take a look at any manufacturer you like on the VOSA website for recalls, Honda for instance have had 3 recalls so far in 2011 alone. Civic engine stall, CRV, fuel leak from diesel pump and Jazz, headlights may not illuminate correctly. Its the way in which they get handled that is important

Kingo :thumbsup:

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I don't think any of the major manufacturers can be judged on how many recalls affect them, it is more important to sort them quickly without undue fuss

Toyota were praised for their handling of the pedal recall, the speed in which it was completed worldwide has never been seen before by ANY manufacturer EVER

Take a look at any manufacturer you like on the VOSA website for recalls, Honda for instance have had 3 recalls so far in 2011 alone. Civic engine stall, CRV, fuel leak from diesel pump and Jazz, headlights may not illuminate correctly. Its the way in which they get handled that is important

Kingo :thumbsup:

Agreed, every manufacturer will have recalls, BMW for example kick cars off the production line with known issues in order to flood the market before Merc or Audi can do the same, they then recall.

Slightly worried if there is a Jazz in front of me at night now! What constitutes not working 'correctly'?!

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"Slightly worried if there is a Jazz in front of me at night now! What constitutes not working 'correctly'?!"

I've just had a "Jazz" sorted with this recall. It involves replacement of the wiring connected to the headlight stalk (about 40 minutes job). Apparently the original was not "beefy" enough, the insulation could harden and fail and the headlights wouldn't sometimes switch on . First reported in the U.S. from what I've read and Honda, of course, denied there was a potential problem until it was reported to the relevant authority by a sufficient number of owners.

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Slightly worried if there is a Jazz in front of me at night now! What constitutes not working 'correctly'?!

Errr like not working at all according to VOSA :D:

Due to the layout of the lighting switch wiring harness, the low beam headlight circuit can be pulled tighter than other wires. After repeated use of the headlight switch, the low beam terminal can become worn and poor electrical continuity may result from an accumulation of copper oxide. In some cases the poor continuity the poor continuity or melted terminal ends will cause the wiring harness terminal ends to melt. Poor continuity or melted terminal ends will cause the low beam head lights to become inoperative, increasing the risk of accident.

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I don't think any of the major manufacturers can be judged on how many recalls affect them, it is more important to sort them quickly without undue fuss

Toyota were praised for their handling of the pedal recall, the speed in which it was completed worldwide has never been seen before by ANY manufacturer EVER

Take a look at any manufacturer you like on the VOSA website for recalls, Honda for instance have had 3 recalls so far in 2011 alone. Civic engine stall, CRV, fuel leak from diesel pump and Jazz, headlights may not illuminate correctly. Its the way in which they get handled that is important

Kingo :thumbsup:

This is very true but I feel that you are very biased John as you make a living selling Toyota cars but then again for interesting facts would you like to tell us all how many recall Toyota have done in 2011 and maybe the other big players so we get a picture who is recalling cars at the moment.

Now about the Toyota pedal recall yes they may have sorted them quickly without undue fuss but if my memory serves me correct it took Toyota a long time to admit there was a problem in the states before then acting on this. I am not saying Toyota are any worse than Honda or Ford or even GM but by the standards Toyota them selves set though the 90s etc this just goes to show with the size of the recalls how they have lost their way or are now happier to fit cheaper sub standard / or not as strictly quality controlled parts over what they would in the past.

It does not matter what car you buy the chances are at some point in its life of the model it would most likely have a recall but like I said earlier 9 warranty claims on a less than 40k 3 year old car is an high number of problems and to be fair to Toyota most if not all was finish quality or wear caused by poor quality of materials used and this just goes to show how quality control has slipped or how cheaper parts are bought from suppliers, not one fault was mechanical. On Toyota's side I was very happy how all these problems were rectified quickly and at no cost to me and apart from the poor MPG issue I was more than happy with the service provided and I cant say that about my Mercedes experience. If Toyota had done a car we liked and fitted what we wanted I would have taken a closer look and I did with the Auris Hybrid but the transmission is what I did not like even though this a superior Hybrid to the CRZ but then the CRZ is a more around drivers car, what I would say is after the T180 experience with quoted figures I would have wanted a 24hour test drive to be sure before buying.

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Rick I understand why you moved away from Toyota, I wouldnt knock you for that, its a free market and you felt the need to move on for your own reasons

I work within the industry, so get to know a lot of the ins and outs of every manufacturer. I have worked inside the Toyota network for the best part of my working life (35 years) so I have seen it all, trust me!

Yes I work for a Toyota dealer so I always put the dealer point of view as a matter of balance (although as the only dealer on here it will never be balanced) The owners point of view can often be as "biased" as you put it, in the opposite direction

Toyota freely admit they have got their quality wrong in the last few years, it is no secret, the TMC boss said so in many a press statement at the time of the pedal recall

I am not trying to say Toyota or any other manufacturer do not have issues, but Toyota do go the extra mile, far far better than many of the top volume sellers

As for numbers of recalls, well just look on the VOSA website.

Toyota in 2010 3 recalls, 2011 1 recall (not including Lexus)

Honda in 2010 4 recalls 2011 3 recalls (not including Motorcycles for which the are plenty!!!)

Nissan 2010 6 recalls 2011 1 recall

I'm not sure you can gauge how good a manufacturer is from the number of recalls, it depends on how it is handled from start to finish including your dealer experience. I don't have access to the specific numbers of cars affected, in the case of 2.2 engine failures, it is not a recall, it is an extended warranty that they are offering, the view of most people is that this affects all 2.2 engines, which is clearly incorrect. This is one of the problems with forums, the thousands of people who are not affected dont get chance to offer their own opinions

Kingo :thumbsup:

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some years back my son inlaw brought a ford approved Fiesta from a small indepenent ford dealership.it only done about 200 miles from new.at about 2000 miles he started getting brake failure,the pedal would go right to the floor.i did not happen all the time,but when it did it was very frightening for him.

he took the car back to the dealer,who said there was nothing wrong with the brakes.

three times he returned the car for the fault,but kept getting the same answer from them.

when he told me about it,i had a look at the car,all seemed ok,brake fluid level ok,pedal right high when applying brakes,not at all spongy.

then i remembered reading somewhere of Fiesta brake problems.

so i called at my local ford main dealers,and luckly the workshop foreman was at the reception desk.i explained the problem with Fiesta brakes and asked was there a recall for this problem.he said there was indeed.i did not have the car with me at the time,if i had he could have checked if it had a paint on the master cylinder indicating that the recall had been done,which involved replacing piston seals in the master cylinder with modified types.any he asked me to phone him with the vin number and he would check if the cars was one of the batch needing this brake mod.

anyway it turns out this car did need this mod,and i took it in for my son inlaw,and when they stripped out the m/cylinder they found the bore of it had a score mark.so contacted Ford who told them to fit a complete new m/cylinder of the latest spec.

the son inlaw had no more trouble with the brakes after this,or indeed the car.

i cant praise the main dealer enough,they did not sell this car to my son inlaw.but they were polite,and nothing seemed to much trouble to get the problem soted out.

as you can imagine i was spitting feathers over the garage who sold the car.i phoned the and spoke to the manager and asked what kind of workshop staff the employed,who dealt with Ford cars and should be aware of all recalls and did not even check if the m/cylinder mod had been carried out if a customer complains about brake problems.

i explained that my son inlaw often had his children in the car and had there been a accident due to the brakes failing,and there had been injuries to them an other parties,

the courts would hold him and his staff responsible.when i had finished talking to him i think he learnt a few words he may have not heared before.

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some years back my son inlaw brought a ford approved Fiesta from a small indepenent ford dealership.it only done about 200 miles from new.at about 2000 miles he started getting brake failure,the pedal would go right to the floor.i did not happen all the time,but when it did it was very frightening for him.

he took the car back to the dealer,who said there was nothing wrong with the brakes.

three times he returned the car for the fault,but kept getting the same answer from them.

when he told me about it,i had a look at the car,all seemed ok,brake fluid level ok,pedal right high when applying brakes,not at all spongy.

then i remembered reading somewhere of Fiesta brake problems.

so i called at my local ford main dealers,and luckly the workshop foreman was at the reception desk.i explained the problem with Fiesta brakes and asked was there a recall for this problem.he said there was indeed.i did not have the car with me at the time,if i had he could have checked if it had a paint on the master cylinder indicating that the recall had been done,which involved replacing piston seals in the master cylinder with modified types.any he asked me to phone him with the vin number and he would check if the cars was one of the batch needing this brake mod.

anyway it turns out this car did need this mod,and i took it in for my son inlaw,and when they stripped out the m/cylinder they found the bore of it had a score mark.so contacted Ford who told them to fit a complete new m/cylinder of the latest spec.

the son inlaw had no more trouble with the brakes after this,or indeed the car.

i cant praise the main dealer enough,they did not sell this car to my son inlaw.but they were polite,and nothing seemed to much trouble to get the problem soted out.

as you can imagine i was spitting feathers over the garage who sold the car.i phoned the and spoke to the manager and asked what kind of workshop staff the employed,who dealt with Ford cars and should be aware of all recalls and did not even check if the m/cylinder mod had been carried out if a customer complains about brake problems.

i explained that my son inlaw often had his children in the car and had there been a accident due to the brakes failing,and there had been injuries to them an other parties,

the courts would hold him and his staff responsible.when i had finished talking to him i think he learnt a few words he may have not heared before.

I know where you are coming from here and will point out Toyota dealership in Derby sold us the Auris T180 with the steering recall 6 months overdue and still awaiting to be done along with other faults, this just shows how some dealerships do their job properly and others don't regardless of the manufacturer and what's worse is the dealership get to charge the manufacturer for putting the car right so in all fairness they lost money and possible return customers for their negligent attitude.

Maybe this is a case of the sales and service departments not communicating

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