Verso T180 2.2D Acceleration Issue

[ricky_k]

Hi,

I have seen a similar posts as my problem, but I am starting a new thread as no resolution was posted. The post in question is:

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120599

I have had my Toyota Corolla Version T180 2.2D-CAT now since December 2006. It is an 55 registration and it had approximately 5K on the clock. Now it has 61K on the clock. I have had one previous major issue with the car, that being the Diesal Particulate Filter efficiency, which ended up in the CAT being replaced. Toyota did this free of charge as I noticed that many people through postings on the internet had seen this issue and Toyota knew about this issue, but had not made it known to the public.

My new issue is related to acceleration of the car. I noticed that soon after the service was done, the car would be hesitant in acceleration from 50mph onwards. In fact it got so bad that the car was getting quite jerky. So I took it to the garage and they said that the EGR was blocked and they had cleaned it out and tested the car out now and it was fine. When I got the car back, I definitely noticed an improvement. The car accelerated much better and the jerkiness was gone, but the problem had not been completely resolved.

I noticed that when I accelerated now about 50mph, the car was a little hesitant in trying to pick up speed. I had the throttle fully down. So I took the car to my local Toyota garage (again) and they said to me later that day that they could not reproduce the fault, and suggested I took their test driver out. I took the test driver out and I could definitely see the problem occuring, but the test driver failed to acknoweldge it and believed there was no problem. I definitely have seen a difference in the car before and after the service and was astonished that the test driver could not see the issue. The car simply will not accelerate linearly. It is hesitant. The local garage said to wait until the Area Manager comes in and then take the car out again for a test drive with them.

What I have noticed is that the issue seems to occur more when the car is cold. Yesterday at about 8.15am, I was accelerating onto the M40 on a slip road going about 50mph in 3rd gear, and with the accelerator almost flat down, and the car was hesitating to pick up speed. My 10 year old daughter in the car also noticed it.

When the garage did the service, they fixed a loose air intake pipe. I wonder if they caused an issue by doing this?

Any ideas? I notice other postings of a similar nature:

http://www.toyotaown...showtopic=94364

http://www.toyotaown...howtopic=115134

Regards,

Ricky

[Mistermena]

Hi,

I have seen a similar posts as my problem, but I am starting a new thread as no resolution was posted. The post in question is:

http://www.toyotaown...howtopic=120599

I have had my Toyota Corolla Version T180 2.2D-CAT now since December 2006. It is an 55 registration and it had approximately 5K on the clock. Now it has 61K on the clock. I have had one previous major issue with the car, that being the Diesal Particulate Filter efficiency, which ended up in the CAT being replaced. Toyota did this free of charge as I noticed that many people through postings on the internet had seen this issue and Toyota knew about this issue, but had not made it known to the public.

My new issue is related to acceleration of the car. I noticed that soon after the service was done, the car would be hesitant in acceleration from 50mph onwards. In fact it got so bad that the car was getting quite jerky. So I took it to the garage and they said that the EGR was blocked and they had cleaned it out and tested the car out now and it was fine. When I got the car back, I definitely noticed an improvement. The car accelerated much better and the jerkiness was gone, but the problem had not been completely resolved.

I noticed that when I accelerated now about 50mph, the car was a little hesitant in trying to pick up speed. I had the throttle fully down. So I took the car to my local Toyota garage (again) and they said to me later that day that they could not reproduce the fault, and suggested I took their test driver out. I took the test driver out and I could definitely see the problem occuring, but the test driver failed to acknoweldge it and believed there was no problem. I definitely have seen a difference in the car before and after the service and was astonished that the test driver could not see the issue. The car simply will not accelerate linearly. It is hesitant. The local garage said to wait until the Area Manager comes in and then take the car out again for a test drive with them.

What I have noticed is that the issue seems to occur more when the car is cold. Yesterday at about 8.15am, I was accelerating onto the M40 on a slip road going about 50mph in 3rd gear, and with the accelerator almost flat down, and the car was hesitating to pick up speed. My 10 year old daughter in the car also noticed it.

When the garage did the service, they fixed a loose air intake pipe. I wonder if they caused an issue by doing this?

Any ideas? I notice other postings of a similar nature:

http://www.toyotaown...showtopic=94364

http://www.toyotaown...howtopic=115134

Regards,

Ricky

Hi Ricky,

I've tried to open the 2 links that you've posted on the bottom of your post but unfortunatly they dont open...

The 1st thing I would consider is the fuel filter/air filter. When was that last changed? If the EGR valve was clogged was there any coolant loss or a black tinge in it? Is the cabin heater still blowing out hot air and the temp guage hitting the "Normal" running temp? Have you noticed any engine oil being used over the norm? Guess I'm trying to find out if your engine has had it due to carbon build up on the EGR thus this being deposited on the pistons!

I would want Toyota to perform a coolant and a cylinder pressure test to rule out these issues. Out of interest what derv are you running it on? Not that this should make a difference, but the supermarket ones have had some issues...

[ricky_k]

Hi "Mistermena",

Thanks for your quick reply. Apologies for the links not working. I have cut-and-pasted them again below. Hope they work now.

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94364

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115134

The 6OK service was done on 19/09/2011 and in the check list they provided, it states "Check/inspect air filter - replace every 4 years or 40,000 miles (whichever is sooner)".

I found my 40K service invoice and I can confirm that they replaced the air filter at this service (05/10/2009).

Regarding the EGR valve, they did not provide me with the details of what state it was in. I quote from the invoice:

"Carried out check for car lacking power. EGR Valve blocked, cleaned out, road tested. All OK at time of test. Customer to monitor".

....that cost me £84.

Regarding the cabin heater, no issues. Regarding the temp gauge, I have not noticed anything abnormal here. Seems to be hitting the "Normal" running temperature. Even with the air conditioning switched off the issue seems to occur.

Regarding engine oil, I have (in the past) had top up between services, but this has been infrequent. I will check the oil tommorrow and report back to you to see if the oil levels are OK.

If there was carbon deposits on the pistons, would that cause this issue of loss of power with throttle full down? Issue occurs going from 3rd/4th gear to 4th/5th gear around 50mph. Also I have seen it from 5th gear to 6th gear when trying to accelerate rapidly. Also in 6th gear try to accelerate rapidly, power does not seem to be there.

I can certainly ask Toyota to perform "a coolant and a cylinder pressure test", but they seem not to want to listen to me when I tell them that other Toyota owners on the Toyota Owners Club Forum have experienced these same issues. However, I will suggest this to them. I may even try a different garage!

Regarding the fuel, I always use Shell (just because I have a loyalty card). I do not normally use the Premium Diesel, but I did use it once, before they cleaned the EGR and it did not help (in fact it seemed to make the issue worse). I don't think I have ever used Supermarket fuels in this car.

Regards,

Ricky.

[cabcurtains]

I replied to the other thread.

If its intermitent and only when you need/expect full boost it does sound like the turbo, injectors or cat are in the early stages of failure. These are all issues seen on the T180's.

Might be best to forget using Mr T and use a diesel specialist for diagnosis.

[Mistermena]

Hi "Mistermena",

Thanks for your quick reply. Apologies for the links not working. I have cut-and-pasted them again below. Hope they work now.

http://www.toyotaown...showtopic=94364

http://www.toyotaown...howtopic=115134

The 6OK service was done on 19/09/2011 and in the check list they provided, it states "Check/inspect air filter - replace every 4 years or 40,000 miles (whichever is sooner)".

I found my 40K service invoice and I can confirm that they replaced the air filter at this service (05/10/2009).

Regarding the EGR valve, they did not provide me with the details of what state it was in. I quote from the invoice:

"Carried out check for car lacking power. EGR Valve blocked, cleaned out, road tested. All OK at time of test. Customer to monitor".

....that cost me £84.

Regarding the cabin heater, no issues. Regarding the temp gauge, I have not noticed anything abnormal here. Seems to be hitting the "Normal" running temperature. Even with the air conditioning switched off the issue seems to occur.

Regarding engine oil, I have (in the past) had top up between services, but this has been infrequent. I will check the oil tommorrow and report back to you to see if the oil levels are OK.

If there was carbon deposits on the pistons, would that cause this issue of loss of power with throttle full down? Issue occurs going from 3rd/4th gear to 4th/5th gear around 50mph. Also I have seen it from 5th gear to 6th gear when trying to accelerate rapidly. Also in 6th gear try to accelerate rapidly, power does not seem to be there.

I can certainly ask Toyota to perform "a coolant and a cylinder pressure test", but they seem not to want to listen to me when I tell them that other Toyota owners on the Toyota Owners Club Forum have experienced these same issues. However, I will suggest this to them. I may even try a different garage!

Regarding the fuel, I always use Shell (just because I have a loyalty card). I do not normally use the Premium Diesel, but I did use it once, before they cleaned the EGR and it did not help (in fact it seemed to make the issue worse). I don't think I have ever used Supermarket fuels in this car.

Regards,

Ricky.

I would take the car to another main dealer and let them take a look at your car. The EGR valve is very easy to clean with normal carb cleaner and 20 mins of your time. You can buy a new EGR valve for £55 that another member bought the other day off eBay after I posted up the find. It was even boxed and never been opened. Have you tried running a fuel cleaner through the system? There are lots on the market like Forte ect, but I have found that the only one that works is BG244 and at £20 it could sort your problems out it has with others that have had similar problem. Take a read of some of the views that cutomers have had on powerenhancers. Although I think that this could be more so a visit to another dealer would be worth it...

[ricky_k]

Hi Mistermena,all,

I tried the BG244 and its made the car WORSE :-(

Now the car is very jerky and will not accelerate at all.

I just talked to a Toyota technician from Kingston(he was picking up something from my house that I sold on eBay and happened to be a Toyota technician - very handy!) and he said that the BG244 would not do any harm, but would not probably solve the problem.

He told me that he is aware of such issues and it basically means new pistons/engine :-(

I am a little worried now. I put the BG244 in he tank, then filled up with regular Diesel and the car is noticeably worse.

Any ideas?

Regards,

Ricky.

[dervdave]

He told me that he is aware of such issues and it basically means new pistons/engine :-(

Ricky, Toyota and their dealers are well aware of the many problems that can inflict the 2.2d engine(and have a`goodwill` warranty to cover) put the ball in their court and take it to one and explain. :)

[Mistermena]

Hi Mistermena,all,

I tried the BG244 and its made the car WORSE :-(

Now the car is very jerky and will not accelerate at all.

I just talked to a Toyota technician from Kingston(he was picking up something from my house that I sold on eBay and happened to be a Toyota technician - very handy!) and he said that the BG244 would not do any harm, but would not probably solve the problem.

He told me that he is aware of such issues and it basically means new pistons/engine :-(

I am a little worried now. I put the BG244 in he tank, then filled up with regular Diesel and the car is noticeably worse.

Any ideas?

Regards,

Ricky.

Hiya mate,

Sounds like your engine has had it tbh. BG244 will not cause any problems that were not there already. So the Toyota tech is correct.

I hope this TSB helps in someway. I'd print it so if you should need it you have it to hand at the dealers...

http://www.toyotaown...attach_id=10737

[ricky_k]

Hi "dervdave", "Mistermena", all,

So here is the latest. Was driving back from Weybridge this morning, car was jerky at 2000 rpm (turbo trying to kick in?), then all of a sudden: ALL LOSS OF POWER and the engine management light came on. The car would not go beyond 50 mph (throttle full down) on the motorway (60 mph at a stretch on a downhill part of the motorway). Phoned the AA. They blocked off the EGR, no difference still a problem. They unplugged the air flow meter. No difference. Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!; I had this issue a year ago and Toyota replaced the CAT for me (they are about £2000). AA patrolman suggests not to drive the car, so getting it towed to Toyota in Isleworth tommorrow morning. I asked the AA man if the BG244 could have caused the issue, but he said it was unlikely, so may be this power-enhancer just made the issue more prominent?

Anyway, thanks to the owners on this forum for all the advice. I will report back after I (yet again) visit Toyota.

Regards,

Ricky.

[Mistermena]

Hi "dervdave", "Mistermena", all,

So here is the latest. Was driving back from Weybridge this morning, car was jerky at 2000 rpm (turbo trying to kick in?), then all of a sudden: ALL LOSS OF POWER and the engine management light came on. The car would not go beyond 50 mph (throttle full down) on the motorway (60 mph at a stretch on a downhill part of the motorway). Phoned the AA. They blocked off the EGR, no difference still a problem. They unplugged the air flow meter. No difference. Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!; I had this issue a year ago and Toyota replaced the CAT for me (they are about £2000). AA patrolman suggests not to drive the car, so getting it towed to Toyota in Isleworth tommorrow morning. I asked the AA man if the BG244 could have caused the issue, but he said it was unlikely, so may be this power-enhancer just made the issue more prominent?

Anyway, thanks to the owners on this forum for all the advice. I will report back after I (yet again) visit Toyota.

Regards,

Ricky.

Hi Ricky,

This car needs to be asap by the dealer as you are doing. The BG244 is simply a cleaner and lube for the fuel system and helps clean the EGR valve. I recon you need a new engine under the warranty! Shell V-Power could have had a similar effect as its very good at helping to clean the system out as it has twice the additve/lube package of a "Normal" derv.

Hope you get it sorted and please do let us know whats happened...

TSB again for you...

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10737

[ricky_k]

Hi Mistermena,

Thanks for the reply. Interesting you say that about Shell V-Power. On my original post of this whole thread, I mentioned that I put V-power in and the car was noticeably worse.

I have printed off the "Warranty Bulletin". Thanks for that!

Will report back.

Regards,

Ricky.

[dervdave]

Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!;

Much as I love diesels I doubt very much I`ll be buying a new one equipped with a DPF, I had experience with a few issues 5yrs ago with the one fitted to my Jag 2.7d and hoped technology would`ve advanced to eliminate problems by now.

[cabcurtains]

Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!;

Much as I love diesels I doubt very much I`ll be buying a new one equipped with a DPF, I had experience with a few issues 5yrs ago with the one fitted to my Jag 2.7d and hoped technology would`ve advanced to eliminate problems by now.

Yep, if you drive in town or do short journeys a DPF will hurt your wallet once the warranty is up

[dervdave]

Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!;

Much as I love diesels I doubt very much I`ll be buying a new one equipped with a DPF, I had experience with a few issues 5yrs ago with the one fitted to my Jag 2.7d and hoped technology would`ve advanced to eliminate problems by now.

Yep, if you drive in town or do short journeys a DPF will hurt your wallet once the warranty is up

It was neither of those in the case of the Jag, it was a faulty pressure sensor

[cabcurtains]

Looked at the codes and guess what: NOT AGAIN, the P2002 Diesel Particulate Filter Efficiency problem!;

Much as I love diesels I doubt very much I`ll be buying a new one equipped with a DPF, I had experience with a few issues 5yrs ago with the one fitted to my Jag 2.7d and hoped technology would`ve advanced to eliminate problems by now.

Yep, if you drive in town or do short journeys a DPF will hurt your wallet once the warranty is up

It was neither of those in the case of the Jag, it was a faulty pressure sensor

I think its fair to say the over complicated modern diesels are a ticking time bomb in one way or another, all the cash saved will eventually be spent on something if you keep the car long enough. But with cars being so heavy you need the torque to enjoy the drive, turbo petrol anyone?

[ricky_k]

Hi again,

Just to let you know that I do not drive in towns. My journey is M25/M40 every day to and from work, though my car is left standing on the driveway for at least 10 weeks a year, as I do international travelling for the company I work for and my meetings are generally 4-6 days.

So I am quite puzzled as to why my car seems to have experienced this P2002 issue (AGAIN!).

Regards,

Ricky.

[ricky_k]

<removed duplicated post>

[cabcurtains]

In the time i have been a member on here the 180 D-Cat's have always been a pain in the backside, the re gen cycle is a great idea but it does seem to be problematic on the 180's. I wonder if this is why they dropped it.

All the issues with fuel and additives seem to expose the issue the car is having (whatever it is?!), it would be nice to think it will be an easy fix but with the 180 history i doubt it.

If the issue isnt covered by the TSB what can you do? Sell it and move or on start spending to investigate, i'm sure the Cat will be in the £1000's.

Sorry this post isnt really helpful or positive

[ricky_k]

Dear all,

I was called today by Andy (managing director of "Powerenhancer", the guys who make the BG244) and he gave me some advice (similar to what you guys have posted). Basically he said that he is seeing more and more cases with DPFs having issues, one of the reasons he thinks is due to the increased use of "Bio Fuels". He advises me not to spend £1900 on a new DPF from Toyota (as that would probably be what Toyota would do) and instead take it to a Diesel specialist (to get the software remapped).

Does anyone know of any good Diesel specialists in London (West London would be ideal, e.g. Uxbridge area).

By the way, Toyota Isleworth (Currie Motors) have had my car since 11am on Monday and still they have not worked on it fully to find out what is wrong with it :-(

I am hopeful that I will get a call tomorrow morning.

Regards

[Uncle Buck]

£1900 for a new DPF ? That's absolutely disgusting !!!

[dervdave]

£1900 for a new DPF ? That's absolutely disgusting !!!

I`d rather pay that amount to have the DPF removed and ecu remapped etc

[ricky_k]

Hi all,

My local Toyota garage confirmed that there is a blockage in the CAT (DPNR) in the higher part of the CAT. See the following web-page and the diagrams at the bottom of the page:

http://www.toyotagb-press.co.uk/protected/corporate/publications/seminar02/releases/04.html

So (no surprise) then, it will cost £860 (labour) + £900 (parts) + VAT to replace the CAT.

Toyota Head Office have said that they would not honour the labour costs, but may pay towards the parts (or part of the costs).

So do you have any advice for me?

Toyota said that they advise against having the DPF removed and the ECU remapped. They say if anything happens to the car, then Toyota would not be responsible.

Obviously this is a tactic to get me to agree to the replacement, but to be honest, I am not a tecky with cars (as you can probably guess). I do not understand how you can have the DPF removed (and not replaced), because surely it is there for emissions control, so removing it with no replacement would surely not be right? I see a lot of websites offering DPF removal and ECU remapping, but I go down this avenue or go down the more costly avenue of Toyota. I just want to do what is right for the car.

Regards,

Ricky.

[Mistermena]

Hi all,

My local Toyota garage confirmed that there is a blockage in the CAT (DPNR) in the higher part of the CAT. See the following web-page and the diagrams at the bottom of the page:

http://www.toyotagb-...eleases/04.html

So (no surprise) then, it will cost £860 (labour) + £900 (parts) + VAT to replace the CAT.

Toyota Head Office have said that they would not honour the labour costs, but may pay towards the parts (or part of the costs).

So do you have any advice for me?

Toyota said that they advise against having the DPF removed and the ECU remapped. They say if anything happens to the car, then Toyota would not be responsible.

Obviously this is a tactic to get me to agree to the replacement, but to be honest, I am not a tecky with cars (as you can probably guess). I do not understand how you can have the DPF removed (and not replaced), because surely it is there for emissions control, so removing it with no replacement would surely not be right? I see a lot of websites offering DPF removal and ECU remapping, but I go down this avenue or go down the more costly avenue of Toyota. I just want to do what is right for the car.

Regards,

Ricky.

Hi Ricky,

This sounds like a bit of a mare to be honest mate. So you've spoken to MD of powerenhancers (Btw, they dont make it as it come from USA) and he's confirmed what we all really know that the DPF is a royal pain in the back passage! So have you spoken to powerenhancers again to ask weather another shot of the stuff would be of use or a waiste of money and time? I'd prefer to spend out another £20 on the stuff if there is a slight possibility that it could clear the blockage! and take the car for a blast through the gears to legal road limits.

If this is something that we are all (T-180) owners are going to experiance then could this not be classed as a manufacturing design fault in the same way the EGR valve is and also the headgasket issue? Just food for thought!

I dont think I would wanna spend that money on a new DPF only to find that "X" anount of time it goes again and Mr T says... Oops! you new another new one! I'd sell the car and move onto a Citroen! At least you know you're buying a bag of :censor: thats gonna breakdown! And its not gonna cost the Earth to put right in most cases!!!

[Uncle Buck]

Since buying my SR180 a few months ago, all I've read is bad news about head gaskets failing, Dual Mass Flywheels not being up to the task, DPF's costing a fortune to replace & EGR's being clogged up all too easily. All of which leads to running problems, poor MPG & lots of headaches ! I'm honestly beginning to wonder how long it'll be before mine fails - especially when the MPG is already way lower than I expected. I like this car in every other respect, but I now live in fear of it costing a fortune to fix/repair. Surely this is not right ? Some members on here seem to have a blinkered attitude to these problems, but they exist & are not just '1 or 2 cars' amongst thousands. It would appear there are a lot of these D4-D engines afflicted in one of the afore-mentioned ways. In trying to be a pioneer of new technology, I believe Toyota has pushed this through too quickly w/out enough long-term testing.

I spoke to a friend at work today who has a 2007 Avensis 2.0 D4-D - it recently needed 4 x new injectors at a cost of £2100, because they need to be individually code-mapped to the ECU ! That is utterly ridiculous & a huge amount of money that could easily have bought a 2nd car Come on Toyota, this is simply not good enough . . . . .

[cabcurtains]

I've written this many times before and i will do it again, Diesel aka heavy oil is a horrible dirty fuel that has to be caressed into burning cleanly by some very complicated and expensive equipment.

When this goes wrong it will cost a lot of money to fix, if you keep a modern common rail diesel long enough any money saved in fuel over the time will get wiped out on repair costs.

Its not just a Toyota issue, every manufacturer has the same problem:

BMW 320d's terrible engine issues

VAG 2.0 TDi PD's constant fuel pumps

Ford EGR & Injectors on TDCI's

etc etc etc

The 180 D-Cats are a very clever engineering job but as they age they need parts replacing. Dont expect any other manufacturer to sell a CAT or injectors for a couple of £100 pounds.

Going forward the fix will be to start bypassing the DPF/EGR's and having injectors replaced 1 by 1 at independent diesel specialists, Mr T will not get involved in this type of fix. They will only change full parts as it removes all liability and future rework. They will just move onto the next major component to change if the issue isnt resolved.

As far as i see it Ricky has 3 options:

Find a Specialist and take the bypass route

Pay Mr T a fortune to replace parts that will go again eventually

PX the car for a newer vehicle thats in warranty

Running modern diesels should come with this as a health warning once they go out of warranty.

My Verso has 75k on the clock and is 4yrs old, the EGR is cleaned at each service and the injectors were changed last October under warranty, i dont have a DPF to worry about.

In my opinion as cars age Petrols are better for maintenance (unless its really old and pre common rail), yes the fuel is more but the bits are cheaper.