Trade In Musings

[cootuk]

I wonder what people think about Toyota trade in deals?

We have a 56 T3 GenII with the 8yr/100000mile warranty, half way through a 5 yr finance deal.

We had planned to keep it until the warranty expired, then see how it goes.

Maybe trade it in for a new finance deal just before the warranty expires.

Bradford Toyota have rung us offering a 59 TSpirit GenIII by extending the finance but keeping payments the same.

No real info on the vehicle as I would imagine it's something coming in they want to shift quick.

We hadn't thought of upgrading so soon, don't really need a TSpirit, but are willing to keep our options open.

Now the 59 GenIII has the real weasel warranty. No way would i buy a car with only a 5yr Battery warranty.

i see the 2010 GenIII is 8yr for the Battery and 5yr for the hydrid drive.

Even extending the Battery warranty on the 59, it still has a 5yr hybrid drive warranty.

Now I'm happy with an 8yr warranty.

Toyota believe that a 5yr warranty is sufficient as the parts are very reliable, but then why not provide the 8yr warranty.

Toyota GB shouldn't pay up front, but pay for repairs as they happen - if they are so few.

I'm sure fleet buyers and new buyers don't worry about this, but many of us 2nd hand buyers are looking for cars that don't become money pits. I'm avoiding DPF, DMF, turbos etc, and it looks like I may avoid 5yr hybrid warranties too.

Is it even possible to extend the hybrid drive warranty to 8 years without buying a full extended warranty for the whole car at £££?

What are people's thoughts about the GenIII secondhand as I know they seem to be slated for poor trim quality, and, given parts in the GenII have been lightened, do we really think us owners should stand the risk of hybrid failures rather than Toyota GB?

Maybe if more people complained to the dealerships saying they wouldn't buy due to the 5yr warranty, then there might be a change of stance?

Now in the US they have to provide from 8-15 years hybrid warranty, so why not an option for the UK too?

If, as Toyota claim, these are extremely reliable, then why can't Toyota offer a cheap hybrid warranty?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I won't answer that.

I would say the gen3 from about July 2010 onwards is ok as that gets the 100k mile warranty. That's probably why the dealers are trying to pass on the gen3 from 2009 - nobody wants them, as indicated by the insulting trade in offers made to me.

For the sake of about 1000 cars Toyota are risking collapsing 2nd hand values and the resulting cheesed off customers who are unlikely to buy another Toyota for risk of being stung again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me etc.

The US get a 100k mile 8 year hybrid warranty or 150k mile 10 year warranty in California, New York and a couple other States. But the warranty covering the car is only 36k miles.

It has been indicated to me that Toyota offer the poor warranty to reduce costs of the original gen3 as they feared competition from what was the newly released Honda Insight. If you remember back in 2009 there wasn't much difference in cost between the two, whereas now it's about £4k. That probably also explains why they're loath to increase the warranty for the early gen3's after the recalls. Trouble is, most of the owners of the early gen3 owners won't appreciate this and just get cheesed their car is worthless.

So Mr Coot, I remember when you asked questions about the gen2 and your concerns coming from a Volvo, and I would say tread carefully with an early gen3 that's out of warranty, unless they give you a FULL extended Toyota warranty to the 100k miles.If you're likely to sell it be aware that trade in prices are poor now and I guess will get worse as more cars fall out of warranty. At least with the t-spirit it'll have the better steering system and thus not be liable to the high failure rate mine has experienced.

[cootuk]

The move from a Volvo to a GenII has been good so far...no regrets.

tbh we are happy with the GenII and 8yr warranty - and the long warranty sells the hybrid as even converts can still be wary of the system, so will be giving this 59 GenIII a miss.

[Ancient Nerd]

I would suggest that you avoid the 59 Gen III like the proverbial plague. The only exception would be if you could buy one privately, at well below dealer cost. Then you could afford to buy a Toyota extended warranty.

The Battery, in particular hasn't yet proved its reliability. Ggiven the 20% increase in Battery capacity, with 20% decrease in size. I see that as a real risk, which is why I took out the extended warranty when the weasel warranty expired. This at least makes sure that the traction Battery is covered.

I have a look at the extended warranty leaflets every time I take the car in for a service. This changed with the introduction of the 5 year warranty that followed the weasel warranty. It changed again quite recently, looking like a total rethink of the extended warranty coverage. Although it now appears to cover the car for greater mileage, my reading of the description is that it no longer covers any battery. Perhaps Kingo or another dealer might like to clarify the position.

The introduction of the weasel warranty to compensate for the lower price of the Gen III at release doesn't really hold water. When the 5 year warranty was introduced, there was a price increase. But this only compensated for the change in UKP/Yen exchange rate. In Japanese Yen terms, the price was unchanged.

I also agree totally with Grumpy's comment:

For the sake of about 1000 cars Toyota are risking collapsing 2nd hand values and the resulting cheesed off customers who are unlikely to buy another Toyota for risk of being stung again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me etc.

I am keeping the Gen III because this is the only thing that makes financial sense. I will keep it until it drops. In the meantime, my dealer will make some money from servicing and the commission on the extended warranty. But they won't be making money on the new car that I would otherwise have bought to replace it. Nor will they make bigger money from the sale of the Gen III, that they might have taken in part exchange.

[cootuk]

What are the hybrid side extended warranty options?

For the GenII we have 8yrs/100000miles on Battery and hybrid side.

2009/10 gen III was 5yrs Battery and drive

2010 onwards was 8yr battery/5yr drive

I've not enquired, but what are the extended warranty options for the hynrid side?

If you could extend to 8yrs for a reasonable cost then this would satisfy many used buyers.

[Ancient Nerd]

The move from a Volvo to a GenII has been good so far...no regrets.

tbh we are happy with the GenII and 8yr warranty - and the long warranty sells the hybrid as even converts can still be wary of the system, so will be giving this 59 GenIII a miss.

A wise decision I think. There are soon going to be a lot more early Gen III owners less than happy with Toyota GB. Only the private buyers of course. However, I suspect that fleet managers may also be a lot less than happy when they see what Toyota has done to their residuals.

[cootuk]

...duplicate post sorry

[Glyyde]

Can I still get the extended warranty now? Bought my Gen 3 on Oct 2009.

By the way, whats the original warranty given by Toyota for this version of Prius? Normal warranty terms and HSD/Batt terms?

[Opifex]

I’m puzzled by the low exchange values for 2009/early 2010 GenIII because this doesn’t seem to be reflected in the retail prices that dealers are asking. I’ve just scanned the Toyota website and found that around the £16,000 mark there is a mix of long and short warranty cars with otherwise similar specs and mileages. Is this just a case of the dealers finding an opportunity to increase their margins?

[kithmo]

Toyota believe that a 5yr warranty is sufficient as the parts are very reliable, but then why not provide the 8yr warranty.

?

I was told the same when I bought mine, but I pointed out to the sales guy that this was a contradiction in terms and total BS.

If something is more reliable then it wouldn't cost the manufacturer any more to warranty it for longer.

I think the real reason for the shorter warranty was that Toyota were not confident that the changes they made to the hybrid system and Battery were going to make it as reliable.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I’m puzzled by the low exchange values for 2009/early 2010 GenIII because this doesn’t seem to be reflected in the retail prices that dealers are asking. I’ve just scanned the Toyota website and found that around the £16,000 mark there is a mix of long and short warranty cars with otherwise similar specs and mileages. Is this just a case of the dealers finding an opportunity to increase their margins?

I'm not sure where you're looking? I've just done a national search on Autotrader for the 1.8 litre Prius in the UK and the first page is in the £9,995 to £12,995 range via non Toyota dealers. I guess if a dealer is selling a car at £9,995 then they'll have bought it for £7,500.

I doesn't matter what Toyota sell the car at on their forecourts, it's the price in that Little Black Book that they go by which being a trade only publication is biased towards the dealers - not just Toyota dealers, just in case you decide to trade your car in for an Audi say.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Can I still get the extended warranty now? Bought my Gen 3 on Oct 2009.

By the way, whats the original warranty given by Toyota for this version of Prius? Normal warranty terms and HSD/Batt terms?

I guess it depends if you are in the UK or not? In the UK a gen3 Prius from mid 2009 when they were released until about June 2010 will be a mileage of 60,000 miles for the car AND the hybrid side. However this is restricted to 3 years for the car (engine, electrics etc) and 5 years for the hybrid and HV Battery.

Car 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first

Hybrid & HV Battery 5 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first.

After about June 2010 (I'm not sure the exact date) the warranty was chaged to 5 years, 100,000 miles which ever comes first. This was a direct result of a loss in sales because of all the bad press about recalls around the world.

So if you were a loyal Toyota customer buying their latest model as soon as it came out, got lots of grief from your friends about dodgy brakes because of the long running recall bad press etc, then you get shafted by having a smaller warranty and much reduced trade in values.

Put it another way. Who wants to buy my car for £12,000, let alone £16,000? Oct 2009, Full Toyota service history, Clean and tidy. 65,000 miles.

I'm waiting :)

[valmiki]

I bought a Prius T-Spirit in Feb 2012 (Pearl white, with the minor options, Style and Protection Pack), registered Jan 2010, with 40k on the clock. I paid £13,500 from Car Giant in London (not a Toyota dealer). The car had full Toyota service history and had last been serviced in November 2011.

When I was looking, all the Toyota dealers had priced their cars (with the same spec, minus the packs) at around the £15,000 mark, and wouldn't budge an inch on price! There were very few cars that matched what I wanted being sold privately. My local Toyota dealer even had one with a sticker price of £16k+ (!)

I was aware of the 3yr warranty issue, but feel that the £1,500 price difference more than made up for it. I intend to spend the £700 or so (which it should be after a litle haggling of course!) to extend the warranty for 2 years.

Not sure what point I'm making here, but I'm happy so far! :-)

[Opifex]

I bought a Prius T-Spirit in Feb 2012 (Pearl white, with the minor options, Style and Protection Pack), registered Jan 2010, with 40k on the clock. I paid £13,500 from Car Giant in London ........

Car Giant happened to get a good mention in last week's Telegraph.

[Glyyde]

Can I still get the extended warranty now? Bought my Gen 3 on Oct 2009.

By the way, whats the original warranty given by Toyota for this version of Prius? Normal warranty terms and HSD/Batt terms?

I guess it depends if you are in the UK or not? In the UK a gen3 Prius from mid 2009 when they were released until about June 2010 will be a mileage of 60,000 miles for the car AND the hybrid side. However this is restricted to 3 years for the car (engine, electrics etc) and 5 years for the hybrid and HV Battery.

Car 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first

Hybrid & HV Battery 5 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first.

After about June 2010 (I'm not sure the exact date) the warranty was chaged to 5 years, 100,000 miles which ever comes first. This was a direct result of a loss in sales because of all the bad press about recalls around the world.

So if you were a loyal Toyota customer buying their latest model as soon as it came out, got lots of grief from your friends about dodgy brakes because of the long running recall bad press etc, then you get shafted by having a smaller warranty and much reduced trade in values.

Put it another way. Who wants to buy my car for £12,000, let alone £16,000? Oct 2009, Full Toyota service history, Clean and tidy. 65,000 miles.

I'm waiting :)

Thanks for clarifying. I should be keeping my Prius after 3 years even with the warranty issue. How much does the Hybrid Battery cost to replace? Is it worth getting the extended warranty (at what cost will this be?)

The resale value of Prius seems low. on PCP finance, the GFV is less than 9k for the current Prius, that is about 60% value lost in 3 years. That has to be more than most cars?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Thanks for clarifying. I should be keeping my Prius after 3 years even with the warranty issue. How much does the Hybrid battery cost to replace? Is it worth getting the extended warranty (at what cost will this be?)

The resale value of Prius seems low. on PCP finance, the GFV is less than 9k for the current Prius, that is about 60% value lost in 3 years. That has to be more than most cars?

It's not just the HV Battery you should worry about. I needed a new HV ecu controller (under warranty) that was about £750+vat+fitting. It also needed a lot of investigative work by Toyota (free when under warranty) to find the problem.

You then have the transaxle (transmission/gearbox) which is the magic part of the Toyota hybrid system. It is seeming that they aren't holding up as well on the gen3 as on the gen2. Maybe making them smaller, lighter and yet more powerful wasn't great for a long life. A transaxle is about £4,500 + vat + fitting. Then there's the steering system on the t3 (it's better on the t4 & t-spirit) which also doesn't seem great. I'm on my THIRD! I think I've given the cost of these before.

We're only finding these issues out now because of high mileage drivers who in the last two and a half years of the UK gen3 have now put on near 100,000 miles and thus showing the issues.

Perhaps the trade know that the gen3 is a fragile thoroughbred which is great when it runs, but has the potential for BIG bills when it goes wrong. It is also a specialist beast in that many parts are so different that you can only take the car to a main dealer for diagnosis or repair.

Put it another way, any old garage knows how to fix a 2 year old Mondeo, but not many know what to do with a Prius and trade in values are now reflecting this.

[Glyyde]

Thanks for clarifying. I should be keeping my Prius after 3 years even with the warranty issue. How much does the Hybrid battery cost to replace? Is it worth getting the extended warranty (at what cost will this be?)

The resale value of Prius seems low. on PCP finance, the GFV is less than 9k for the current Prius, that is about 60% value lost in 3 years. That has to be more than most cars?

It's not just the HV Battery you should worry about. I needed a new HV ecu controller (under warranty) that was about £750+vat+fitting. It also needed a lot of investigative work by Toyota (free when under warranty) to find the problem.

You then have the transaxle (transmission/gearbox) which is the magic part of the Toyota hybrid system. It is seeming that they aren't holding up as well on the gen3 as on the gen2. Maybe making them smaller, lighter and yet more powerful wasn't great for a long life. A transaxle is about £4,500 + vat + fitting. Then there's the steering system on the t3 (it's better on the t4 & t-spirit) which also doesn't seem great. I'm on my THIRD! I think I've given the cost of these before.

We're only finding these issues out now because of high mileage drivers who in the last two and a half years of the UK gen3 have now put on near 100,000 miles and thus showing the issues.

Perhaps the trade know that the gen3 is a fragile thoroughbred which is great when it runs, but has the potential for BIG bills when it goes wrong. It is also a specialist beast in that many parts are so different that you can only take the car to a main dealer for diagnosis or repair.

Put it another way, any old garage knows how to fix a 2 year old Mondeo, but not many know what to do with a Prius and trade in values are now reflecting this.

Sounds like it wouldn't be long before I have to just give up my Prius. Will the Prius + have even more problem with a new Battery?

How long does this transaxle last normally?

[cootuk]

The problem will be that if we start seeing posts from people saying their GenIII was out of warranty at 5yr and needed £££ to fix the hybrid side, then they will basically have zero secondhand value after 5years.

This in turn will kill hybrids in the UK, yet the US will still have their 10+ years warranties - with our scrapped vehicles going over their for spares no doubt.

[Glyyde]

you guys are making it sounds like we should all get rid of the Prius as soon as possible

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The problem will be that if we start seeing posts from people saying their GenIII was out of warranty at 5yr and needed £££ to fix the hybrid side, then they will basically have zero secondhand value after 5years.

This in turn will kill hybrids in the UK, yet the US will still have their 10+ years warranties - with our scrapped vehicles going over their for spares no doubt.

Exactly that.

There is a post on the US PriusChat forum where someone is looing at a 2006 gen2 Prius with 34,000 costing $16,000! (£9,975), so in the land of 150,000 mile warranty the values are holding.

So the warranty does matter, there and here. A UK spec gen1 (2001-2003) is impossible to get for less than £2,995 whatever mileage. A gen2 (2004-2009) doesn't go for less than £4,500 (whatever mileage), but the value of the lower warranty gen3 is starting at £7,300.

So buy a 2001 gen1 for £3,000, or a 2004 gen2 for £4,500 or a 2009 gen3 for £7,300.

[timberwolf]

The American market is different from Europe (probably no less stupid and broken than ours but still different). I doubt the silly money paid for hybrids has that much to do with the warranty, and is much more likely due to a rise in the cost of gasoline and the lack of competition (from diesel). For example, 3 or 4 years ago, I remember reports that Americans were paying more than the sticker price for their new Prius, they would take whatever color was on offer and then they still had to wait up to 9 months for delivery, but the big trucks (pickup) and SUVs they virtually couldn't give away. They were also paying silly money for the second-hand cars.

The daft thing is that when the gas prices went down, many of them sold the hybrids they had paid silly money for and bought big trucks and SUVs. Oops, gas prices go back up, the panic to pay over the odds for hybrids again. Madness.

At least in Europe, we have a choice(?) and if we want we can choke on the fumes of diesels!;)

[Grumpy Cabbie]

But their warranty of 150,000 miles or 10 years is mandated by law in certain States, at least to allow the vehicle to have certain 'rights' or benefits - such as driving in High Occupancy Vehicle HOV lanes (similar to our bus lanes) with just the driver. See the following;

All emissions-related components must be warrantied for 15-years or 150,000-miles. This includes the electric propulsion components of a hybrid electric vehicle.

PHEVs must also warranty their traction Battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle

[Ancient Nerd]

you guys are making it sounds like we should all get rid of the Prius as soon as possible

Anything but. Thanks to the Toyota weasel warranty, I can't afford to get rid of mine. The one consolation is that I can buy the warranty that Toyota missed. Unfortunately, trade values don't take that into account.

[Ancient Nerd]

PHEVs must also warranty their traction battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles

I think that could be a painful experience for Toyota and anyone else supplying Li-on batteries. Although the reason for the Prius PHV low Battery range may be to extend Battery life, at the expense of range, in the same way as the standard prius limits use of its Nimh batteries. My understanding is that Li-on batteries are much more temperamental.

I will be very interested to see the length of the UK Battery warranty.

[Glyyde]

you guys are making it sounds like we should all get rid of the Prius as soon as possible

Anything but. Thanks to the Toyota weasel warranty, I can't afford to get rid of mine. The one consolation is that I can buy the warranty that Toyota missed. Unfortunately, trade values don't take that into account.

How much does the extended warranty cost and how much longer does the warranty last for?

I do not think I will be trading my Prius after 3 years. Pretty much as it will not be financially beneficial to do so. And I am so used to 50+MPG that I might struggle to find another petrol car that does so.