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Konrad C

E10 Ethanol/petrol Fuel Compatiblity

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I was reading through a another manufactures new car website when I noticed something about being E10 compatible.

After a quick research via Google, I found out a little bit more.

E10 is 10% Ethanol mixed with 90% petrol. I am not going to repeat any rumours or hearsays, but there is an incompatible issue with old vehicles and motorcycles. Also it is now standard fuel in EU.

What I did find out that most petrol Toyotas from Jan 1998 to date can use E10 fuel with the exception of the 2 and 2.4 litre vvti Avensis to 2008! These engines are direct injection engines.

Check the following link:

http://www.acea.be/i...MPATIBILITY.pdf

So I know my 1998 1.8 leanburn is okay but these newer engines will have to run on 98 ron Super unleaded. Some Lexus models cannot use this fuel too!

This reminds me of when unleaded was introduced and lead petrol phased out.

Does anybody have thoughts on the subject?

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Very interesting. It feels like I have to change to higher octane. What will happen with the car if one use E10 fuel? I believe we have had that fuel for a while here in Sweden. Is it some o-rings that might get damaged or some hoses?

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I have studied several petrolstations products. I was wrong that we already had e10 here in Sweden. It is only e5 we have here. That means I dont have to worry any more about wich petrol I buy.

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Hi, I've found this link on the toyota-europe.com website where you can check the compatibility of your vehicle. You'll need your VIN and first reg. date.

http://vinrecall.toyota-europe.com/e10.aspx

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Anyone any thoughts about adding PURE Acetone into fuel ... petrol or diesel?

I know for a fact it works very well in the old Carina E 1.6 & 1.8 engines without ANY adverse effects long term.

Pete :thumbsup:

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I'm a little confused here, so can I use normal fuel in my 1az-fse engine? Also if it is the 1az-fse does that not also effect some Rav4's?

Mo

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According to the general rule your 1az-fse is not E10 compliant. You'll be fine on 98 if they discontinue the regular 95 (which is E5 by now, anyway). The government is quite behind with this issue and the markings are far from clear at the pump. If you want to make sure just ask the petrol station how much ethanol the fuel contains. The regulation was made in 2009 to take into effect in 2011 (the issue was officially on the table since at least 2002).

Since this year (2013) the Oil companies are not legally required accoding to European law to offer the E5, see page 17 of the EC directive for specs. National governments can decide to force the Oil companies to continue to sell the E5 if they wish.

So in other words, if you take a trip to another country in Europe, be prepared to buy 98 for your 1az-fse, if the E5 is not available since that's not the default fuel any more. For instance the typical petrol you can buy in France is E10 in my own recent experience, however at most places they sell 98 alongside with E10. The markings are clear so you know what you buy.

However, 95 can mean E10 legally, since 95 is only the RON number and E10 is RON95, too. Normally companies mean E5 by 95 and 98, but it's better to check.

Here's what the EC said about this in less technical language:

"Fuel Quality Directive requires that member states shall require that fuel suppliers ensure the continued supply of E5 unleaded petrol until 2013 and may require that it remains available for longer, if it is necessary for the fleet of vehicles in their territory."

For more less technical info see this link.

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Anyone any thoughts about adding PURE Acetone into fuel ... petrol or diesel?

I know for a fact it works very well in the old Carina E 1.6 & 1.8 engines without ANY adverse effects long term.

Pete :thumbsup:

I've read about using Acetone in the fuel,apparently it reduces the surface tension of the fuel allowing it to atomise far better than normal.As far as I can tell there shouldn't be any adverse effects for older 7A-FE engines or VVTi's either.

I've been interested in trying it for a while but,to be honest,it gets put down the bottom of the list like so many things do day-to-day.lol.

I'd be fascinated to hear of your experience with it though.Whereabouts you got it from,how much it costs,how you added it to the fuel etc.

Supposedly it improves both performance and fuel economy :spiteful:

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Anyone any thoughts about adding PURE Acetone into fuel ... petrol or diesel?

I know for a fact it works very well in the old Carina E 1.6 & 1.8 engines without ANY adverse effects long term.

Pete :thumbsup:

I've read about using Acetone in the fuel,apparently it reduces the surface tension of the fuel allowing it to atomise far better than normal.As far as I can tell there shouldn't be any adverse effects for older 7A-FE engines or VVTi's either.

I've been interested in trying it for a while but,to be honest,it gets put down the bottom of the list like so many things do day-to-day.lol.

I'd be fascinated to hear of your experience with it though.Whereabouts you got it from,how much it costs,how you added it to the fuel etc.

Supposedly it improves both performance and fuel economy :spiteful:

My brother used it on a regular basis in his Carina E petrol with very good results for years and his mate also reported the same with his Transit Connect diesel van for mpg and power increase.

PURE Acetone (99.5% pure minimum) can be obtained very easily off Ebay but my brother ordered it through a local chemist. The link you posted is very useful and the recommended amount to add, 2-3 fluid onces to 50 ltrs of petrol needs to be adhered to as using more will lead to less mpg increase, just half the ammount is used in diesel.

Pete.

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Guys, Acetone sounds good but it is ethanol in E10 that is being added to the fuel. From what I have read, owners of cars not compatible with E10 fuel that have issues. Unless there is an additive like lead substitute for cars that could not use unleaded, those owners will have to find another fuel if the country makes this fuel standard. This will also drop the value of those models when the word gets out.

I read a press piece as per link - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/9923895/New-green-petrol-could-drive-up-prices-and-damage-cars.html

So long as the UK holds off, those very few owners of the incompatible cars should be okay for now.

One quick note: Audi/Volkswagen group with FSI engines are the worst effected compared with any other manufacturer!

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Thank you for the link. In my own experience with E10 I can't confirm the increased fuel consumption, though. This might be down to the fact that the maximum percentage of ethanol is given in the specs (10%) not the minimum, and the petrol I put in my tank might not have contained 10%.

E10 means it can contain 10% ethanol, but it doesn't mean it actually does. It was said that it increased fuel consumption by maximum 1.5-3% compared to regular petrol. As long as it's cheaper by that or more we'll be fine financially.

An indicator at the pump could help, maybe. The price could vary with the actual renewable content/environmental benefits, too. Properly calculated, of course. See here.

Anyway, a lot depends on how this will be introduced. I personally think this could be beneficial on the whole, but a reasonable alternative should be given for non-compatible cars.

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I started this topic back in 2013, and now it looks like E10 will be introduced in the UK - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/government-plans-e10-petrol-switch-2021
 

All petrol Avensis engines except the AZ series will be compatible. The 1AZ (2.0l) and 2AZ (2.4l) are both direct injection engines, unlike every other petrol engine fitted to the Avensis which are indirect - 4A, 7A, 3S, ZZ series and the ZR series. This is just like the move to unleaded fuel. I remember I had a Mk1 Astra, and the engine was okay with unleaded with only the timing adjusted. Unfortunately, some Fords and a lot of Austin Rover group cars were not suitable, without major valve and valve seat work. All Japanese cars of the time were okay, as well as German cars. E10 is not as bad and the there is a compatibility list for the various makes.
https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf

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From the Autocar article, it will only be standard unleaded that will be E10. Higher octane (Super Unleaded, etc) petrol will continue to be E5. Fuel consumption will increase slightly with E10 though.

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Also see 

 

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What might happen with the engine (1az-fse) if it runs on E10?  The 1 az-fse engine has a high pressure fuelpump and the fuel pressure can reach 150 Bar in the fuelsystem. It must be something with that high pressure and the ethanol. The hose from the fuelpump to the highpressure pump looks lika any fuelhose. From the high pressure pump to the injectors it is pipes. There are several o-rings etc on the pipeconnections. I doubt that those rubber rings etc would mind if it is any ethanol or not in the fuel.

I used pure e85 in my old carina e with the 4a-fe leanburn engine. I had to adjust the fuel pressure and the timing, but it got very thirsty and I had to pay more per distance than I did on 95 oktane  petrol. The cheapest fuel for that engine was to mix about 60 % petrol and 40 % e85. If it was more than 50 % e85 the engine had problems. It was terrible to start during winter with e85 too.

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10 hours ago, BALIKBAYAN said:

What might happen with the engine (1az-fse) if it runs on E10?  The 1 az-fse engine has a high pressure fuelpump and the fuel pressure can reach 150 Bar in the fuelsystem. It must be something with that high pressure and the ethanol. The hose from the fuelpump to the highpressure pump looks lika any fuelhose. From the high pressure pump to the injectors it is pipes. There are several o-rings etc on the pipeconnections. I doubt that those rubber rings etc would mind if it is any ethanol or not in the fuel.

I used pure e85 in my old carina e with the 4a-fe leanburn engine. I had to adjust the fuel pressure and the timing, but it got very thirsty and I had to pay more per distance than I did on 95 oktane  petrol. The cheapest fuel for that engine was to mix about 60 % petrol and 40 % e85. If it was more than 50 % e85 the engine had problems. It was terrible to start during winter with e85 too.

If I remember correctly, the spark plug gap was quite wide  - 1.3mm. My old leanburn 1.8 Avensis used Denso Iridium spark plugs, pre-gapped to that spec. I would have thought that at cold start, the fuel was enriched. Hopefully the newer engines won't have too much issues.
Regarding the 1AZ-FSE engine, I think the seals in the high pressure fuel, are already having a tough job without the extra ethanol. What might be 10% in a standard indirect system , will seem like 40% on those seals. It would mean replacing seals more often. Add to the running of the engine. At least in the UK 98 ron fuel will still be 5% for now!    

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I spend at least half the year in Thailand where Toyota is the market leader. Gasohol has been popular for at least 15 years and its now difficult to find normal gasoline. Most cars run on 91 RON E10, which is due to go to E20 from the middle of this year. My Camry (5S-FE) has done 400k km on E10 with no problems. There are many Toyota with  1AZ-FE engine and I don't hear of any problems.

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Mrfixer, I believe that it is the 1 AZ-FSE engine that doesn't like the E10 petrol, not the 1AZ-FE engine.

They are very look a like almost like twins, but the major difference is that the FSE engine has an additional high pressure fuel pump (up to ca 150 Bar).

Konrad, those seals in the fuel line is only supposed to be changed, when you are doing something with the fuelsystem. As the h.p fuelpump is bolted to the cylinder head cover it means what ever you are going to do with the engine you have to dismantle the fuel system.

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In Denmark E5 is only available as RON 98 or VPower 100. Extra price is 10% for Ron 98 and 13% for VPower.

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4 hours ago, BALIKBAYAN said:

Mrfixer, I believe that it is the 1 AZ-FSE engine that doesn't like the E10 petrol, not the 1AZ-FE engine.

They are very look a like almost like twins, but the major difference is that the FSE engine has an additional high pressure fuel pump (up to ca 150 Bar).

Yes, I specifically referred to the 1AZ-FE.

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My avensis 1AZ-FSE work very well with E10 (95 and 98). Of course, consumption is higher by about 1 lt /100 km.

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I will double check next time when I refuel the car (anyday next week) if we have E5 or E10 here in Sweden. I tried to find the answer from internet, but I am not sure if it is E5 or E10 at the petrolstations here. I know I have read it at the pump, but that is something you read and don't remember it.

Joyne, in wich country are you driving on E10? It might be good to know if and when this corona stuff goes away and we might go for a long drive with the car.

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Romania.

I think my country is the only one in Europe where there is only E10 for sale. Leaders tell us that they are norms imposed by EU. Bull$hitt! with E5 the consumption is lower and therefore the pollution is smaller.

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I did a quick search and found these

https://influencemap.org/site/data/000/078/toyota_biofuels_august_21_2015.pdf
https://www.e10bensiini.fi/en/e10_compatible_motors/e10_compatible_motors_-_cars/toyota
https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_(revised)_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
 

As mentioned by other members, there are two versions of the 1AZ engine, the 1AZ-FSE which has the high pressure direct injection, and the 1AZ-FE with standard port injection. The 2AZ has the same two variants - FE and FSE. For the best detailed info with diagrams look at this - https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/04-11-20_faq_az_eng.htm

The petrol Avensis with direct injection are also know as D-4. It is possible to fit seals that can work with E10, but that depends on what Toyota has done for specific markets!

I remember having a disagreement with someone who said the engine in my car, 1.8 Valvematic 2ZR-FAE, who claimed it has direct injection! I posted the info that the engine is port injection (non-direct) and he wouldn't have it. Here is the reason. Since the inlet manifold is made of plastic, the injectors are installed on the cylinder head in the inlet valve port, just behind the valves. So looking at the engine, it looks like the engine has direct injection. The previous 1ZZ-FE has a similar setup where the injectors are mounted on the cylinder head. If the cylinder head was take off, there would only be the valves and spark plug for each cylinder, but no injector in the combustion side. In a direct injection, the injector will be in the combustion chamber, an extra hole in the head.  The AZ engine ( direct/non-direct injection) look similar, with some minor differences.

Sorry to go on, but I am trying to find and add known info. 
 

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