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Winter Wheels For A 4.4


philip42h
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The aftermarket world has not caught up? I would say the aftermarket world has overtaken and is speeding away :)

I had on my RAV4 a set of aftermarket TPMS sensors (one per wheel obviously) which communicated with a colour display which advised the driver of the tyre pressure and temperature of each tyre and would sound an alarm if any parameters went outside the (user-changeable) limits - much more info then the OEM systems.

And when it came to the winter wheels, I had a second set of sensors fitted, which communicated with another display - and when I changed the wheels, I simply changed the display unit as well - a 30 second job :D

And the best part of this was that the 4 sensors and the display unit cost less as a set then a single OEM sensor.

I think BMW have got the right idea for TPMS though .... No sensors and use the info from the ABS system to determine rolling radii and flagging up if one wheel is rolling differently, which would indicate a different radius and therefore pressure.

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The aftermarket world has not caught up? I would say the aftermarket world has overtaken and is speeding away :)

I had on my RAV4 a set of aftermarket TPMS sensors (one per wheel obviously) which communicated with a colour display which advised the driver of the tyre pressure and temperature of each tyre and would sound an alarm if any parameters went outside the (user-changeable) limits - much more info then the OEM systems.

And when it came to the winter wheels, I had a second set of sensors fitted, which communicated with another display - and when I changed the wheels, I simply changed the display unit as well - a 30 second job :D

And the best part of this was that the 4 sensors and the display unit cost less as a set then a single OEM sensor.

I think BMW have got the right idea for TPMS though .... No sensors and use the info from the ABS system to determine rolling radii and flagging up if one wheel is rolling differently, which would indicate a different radius and therefore pressure.

And just how is any of that supposed to help someone driving a Toyota RAV4.4? Off topic! :D

I agree that it would have been far better if Toyota had used Tyrepal type technology rather than going its own sweet OEM way but they haven't and some of us are stuck with the situation that now exists.

The BMW solution also appears to fail the test - as I understand such indirect tyre pressure monitoring methods are not recognised as valid under the EU legislation so BMW may have to think again!

As Kev says at some point I'm going to have to stop banging my head against this particular wall ...

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We're progressing ! Here's hoping there's a straight forward answer before the white fluffy stuff arrives. Having said that my 4.4 hasn't arrived yet.

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Must be a way round this, as countries such as That Germany have mandatory winter tyre legislatement.........?

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This is all starting to tick me off. Love the car and want to keep the family safe hence the winter tyres but with TPMS issues it seems a little farcical.

What would happen if you replaced all wheels with your winter alloys and tyres but non TPMS valves and have a bad crash. Would the insurance not pay out because you had wheels with non TPMS valves fitted which was brought in as a safety feature.

It also seems to be another way of the car industry getting hold of more of our cash - what cost will they add if you need a new set of valves each time you get new tyres.

Ridiculous that we spend on a new car and they don't put decent enough rubber on.that can cope with cold weather. e-mail response i got from salesman at Mr T's was that tyres were great on testing ground under almonds of wet situations but none of those will have been snow or below 7*c.

There must be a solution without Ruthe selling the car or the cost being punitive

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Must read predictive text better before i press post next time...

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Just rang Toyota to ask about the TPMS valves. At £75 each valve I don't think I'll be buying a set...

Parts chap seemed to suggest that i would also have to get them keyed in by dealer for car to recognise them. Seems expensive to be safe in the bad weather nowadays.

Anyone have any ideas?

Options?

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£75 a valve seems about right; they seem to be about $75 over the other side of the pond. And while that's a tad 'steep' it isn't that huge compared with the cost of the alloy it needs to be fitted in or the tyre that it monitors.

And yes, each valve has it's own identity so one would need them to be programmed into the car's ECU each time you swap wheel sets - and the dealer could do this and charge for the service.

To avoid the cost of TPMS valves you could:

  • Use a single set of wheels and swap the tyres across (twice a year)
  • Simply ignore the warning light through the winter (or summer depending ...)
  • Snip the pink wire (no idea whether it is still pink on a 4.4) and add a switch - you'll need to have TPMS working for the MOT in due course

I don't particularly like any of those options ...

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In the event I can save somebody some cash, it was only last year I became a convert to winter rubber, and I will wax lyricful forthwith about them. Prior to that, I had seen two winters off in Bridgestone Runflats, including the humdinger of 2010/11 snow and ice. Hopefully I am preaching to the much converted, but the Rav on any of its standard tyres is still an extremely capable vehicle, and let us not get caught up in a mass hysteria of "must have winter wheels and tyres"............you will more than get by on standard footwear.

If the wheels had not come up at a great price from Uncle Paul Buck, and tyres even more so on The Bay, I would still be running wife's car with no reservations through winter on normal tyres.

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It's looking like £1500 of a job to fit a set of pitlane alloys with Continental winter tyres and the valve issue sorted. I ran our 4.3 Rav through the severe winter of 2010/11 on the factory fit Geolanders without any trouble whatsoever. Having read so much in the motoring press etc and watched the surprising videos on You Tube about winter tyres I bought a set of Continental winter tyres last year. There is without doubt a noticeable difference, not so much in deep snow but in adhesion to the road in wet / slippery conditions and sub zero temperatures.

If you're intending keeping the Rav for 3 plus years then despite the high initial outlay IMHO it's not a terrible investment, offsetting the saving of mileage on a set of 'summer tyres' plus the potential resale value of the second set of wheels sometime in the future. So, the day I order mine is the day we have at least three mild winters...... :blush:

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Living in the sarf I don't feel the need for winter tyres, I do accept that their performance is excellent at temperatures below 7 degrees, I do wonder though with the costs associated with swapping over twice a year could you run all year round with winter tyres? I don't know the specs to understand if this is feasible?

Gus

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Living in the sarf I don't feel the need for winter tyres, I do accept that their performance is excellent at temperatures below 7 degrees, I do wonder though with the costs associated with swapping over twice a year could you run all year round with winter tyres? I don't know the specs to understand if this is feasible?

Gus

Winter tyres used through the summer months would wear out very quickly Gus, racing slicks in no time at all.

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I as many of you know am a huge winter wheel fan... But I question the validity of them being for everyone...

When I was travelling up and down the motorways from Scotland to the Midlands I considered them an absolute necessity.. I had my wife who due to disability getting stuck in the snow would be a very unpleasant situation indeed... Even equipping to the hilt of course could not defend against all eventualities but I covered all bases as best I could...

Now ? Well other than the outstanding grip and performance in very cold temperatures I would see no real gain.. We can of course defend easily by simply slowing down. Driving slowly in a Rav4 with decent all weather tyres say for instance the Geolanders should be still a safe way to get around..

Looking at the posted video above it shows two vehicles being driven at the same speed in the same manner so of course the results are going to be spectacular and Winter tyres will win every time but they do not take into account the driver that simply slows down a bit..

My winter tyres have been on all year and are slightly less than half worn.. They have covered a huge mileage already but I suspect they will be worn out come late spring whether on this Rav or another.. Will I replace them with another set of Winters ? No.... My needs have changed so I would go Geolanders or similar.

Different strokes and all that...............

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I have used winter tyres (vredestein snotrac3) on my Avensis T180 manual tourer since 2008/2009 from December to April and normal tyres (Continental sport contact3)in the summers and will fully support using the right tyres for the conditions. It is true that all the comparisons will start their test from the same baseline speed and therefore does not account for the nut holding the wheel actually slowing down for the conditions. But it is also true that having the right tyre on will give you the best chance when the unexpected happens giving you optimum braking/steering to cope with an emergency. It could make all the difference.

I didn't use winter tyres at all 'tiI I anticipated driving to the Alps for skiing a number of times each winter. Having made that decision I would not now run a car/SUV in this country without two sets of rubber despite living in the sarf (as Big Kev would put it). The resistance to aquaplaning is a factor to be seriously considered. The wide treads and sipes plus the more flexible rubber will give the winter tyre much more tolerance before ultimate breakaway. And we do have a lot of rain in winter ( sorry...that was a bit patronising, but you know what I mean)

Another point that I don't think has been made yet is that the winter tyres start to lose their advantage on soft or freshly falling snow when the tread depth is about 4mm. Thus I ran my last set into the summer to about 2.5mm ( which is about my limit for summer tyres) knowing they would not make another winter. But of course my summer set were not wearing out at all during that period.

Yes, the initial financial outlay is high especially if you have another set of wheels (which I did for myT180 but there was another reason for that, fitment of chains), but having two sets of rubber with only one wearing at a time the costs are minimised to swapping the tyres over.

I will finish by saying that I will continue to have two sets of rubber for my RAV despite the help of AWD. TPMS just makes things a little awkward! :(

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I know the outlay is /was high.. I spent 1500 quid on my new set of wheels and tyres.... Because I felt very strongly at the time I needed them.. Now I feel driving with common sense IE slowly will be enough.. Let us not forget while they are better they can and will still loose traction and slide.. Superman qualities they do not endow....................

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I know the outlay is /was high.. I spent 1500 quid on my new set of wheels and tyres.... Because I felt very strongly at the time I needed them.. Now I feel driving with common sense IE slowly will be enough.. Let us not forget while they are better they can and will still loose traction and slide.. Superman qualities they do not endow....................

Totally agree with the driving with common sense bit, no matter what tyres are fitted. It sounds like we have made our choice. I hope others, through our discussions are now better informed to make theirs. :bookworm:

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Winter Tyres AND all-wheel drive are definately Belt & Braces, but nothing wrong with that at all!

The first year I moved up to Scotland, I was running a RAV4.2 and that worked throughout the wintertime with the heavy snow with no issues on the UHP General Grabbers (M+S marked I think?) and I was using the RAV to flatten the snow for the neighbours ;)

The next year I was running a Nissan Qashqai FWD with sports-orientated 18" road tyres and it was embarrasing on the icy roads and I could not make it up any kind of significant inroad inclines and sometimes out of the car park when the snow was a few inches thick.

I bought a set of snowsocks for the driving wheels and they totally transformed the drivability of the car to keep me going in those situations.

The following year I had the RAV4.3 and I also bought a set of winter tyres and wheels to fit .... But the snow and real cold never really arrived that year (doh!)

This year I am back to a FWD car with sport-orientated 18" road tyres and so avoid the Qashqai situation again, I have the Winter Wheels and Tyres all ready to get fitted to the motor - so at least I'll have the Belts, if not the Braces this time round and fingers crossed it will be sufficient.

I will know for sure next spring, but I think for safe driving though the winter, at leas in the colder UK climes, getting either the Belts or the Braces is a must :)

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I will recount an experience I had just a few miles from where I live. I was driving my Avensis with winter boots on to work Northbound on the A5 being closely followed by a Focus. It was about dawn and around freezing, otherwise good weather. I was wary that there may be black ice around so I had lopped 10-15 mph off my normal speed and thus had the close attention of the Focus who probably thought I was holding him up. We passed through Fosters Booth and descended a slight hill with some gentle bends and the Focus overtook when clear of the village. He got to about 30y in front of me and lost the back end to the right, over corrected and the rear end fish tailed the left, clipped the grassy bank and barrel rolled 2 1/2 times. I then had to avoid where his car had come to rest on it's roof, broadside to the road, on the left with the driver in it. I managed to pull up under complete control without ABS cutting in, flicked my hazards on and reversed back to near the brow of the hill to give traffic some warning of the semi-blocked road. As I went to the car I had difficulty keeping my feet due to the black ice. I called to the driver and he said he was ok but couldn't open the door. A lady managed to stop and I asked her to call the police but move on in case she got hit. An artic. came down the hill jack-knifed but with great skill the driver straightened the rig up and passed the stranded car. After breaking the window, I helped the driver out and we walked up to my car and he sat in it. He had only cut his finger, otherwise fine. The police traffic car arrived about 25 mins later apologising for his delayed arrival. He stated he was only 12 miles away but the roads where "deadly". Tell me about it!! The driver was fine and I left my details with police and left....slowly.

I was very pleased I had my "braces" fitted that day. :) I believe that the road surface is at its slipperiest at or around freezing point. When it gets much colder it actually gets grippier.

Ironically, after I had thought this through, this tale supports CharlieFarlies' decision as three drivers, I assume without winter boots, managed to avoid the crash. They were undoubtedly driving with common sense, recognising the conditions. I don' t know if I would have stopped under control without the winter boots though, I had less time to react. A 4x4 may not have helped in this situation, it may have been harder to stop because of the increased weight. But as you can imagine this is something I will not forget and perhaps, in part, explains my decision to continue to fit winter tyres

Andy

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Andy please don't misunderstand me I entirely agree that winter tyres are brilliant !! There can be no doubt that the Germans and other country's are correct in demanding them on all cars certain times of the year..

I was overtaken on the motorway last winter in the early hours by a clown in a Focus... Blimey are they all mad. .. The road surface was dreadfull and I was going quite slowly in my Rav on winter tyres.. Couple of miles down the road matey wax to be found facing towards me in lane. 2. ..

I wonder if he had winter tyres would ha have still lost control and still spun. ..

In some ways I think the choise should be taken away from us and winter tyres should be compulsory ....

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I have recently taken delivery of a new RAV 4, (petrol CVT). I have been a convert to the winter tyres philosophy ever since driving a rear wheel drive Mercedes Estate which went from being a lethal weapon to a docile and controllable beast on icy roads after being fitted with winter rubber.

I bought an after market set of alloys and winter tyres for my wife's Jazz which I was able to do quite cheaply as we already had a set of winter tyres of the same size taken from the Toyota iQ we sold. I am reluctant to spend the not inconsiderable amount of money that it would take to do the same for the RAV, particularly having learned about the TPMS issues in this forum.

I haven't seen any discussion of an "all season" tyre as a compromise option. The local tyre dealer with whom I have dealt for many years (but has just sold up and retired) always told me that he considered the Vredestein Quatrac 3 tyre the ideal choice for the Scottish climate, where I live. He claimed to have fitted these to many vehicles with very good results. I obviously appreciate the risk of having something that is inevitably a compromise but I would welcome hearing of members' thoughts on the subject and in particular, from anyone with direct experience of using these so called "all season" tyres.

I have no knowledge of how these tyres are actually constructed. Whether or not they can actually vary the temperature sensitivity of the rubber on the two sides would be of great interest.

If a direct link is permitted; here is the Vredstein tyre I am referring to:

http://www.vredestein.co.uk/car-tyres/all-season/quatrac-3-suv/info/

I haven't explored similar offerings from other tyre manufacturers.

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Separate winter and summer sides on the same tyre? Sounds a bit of a weird idea and a tyre that is a poor compromise for both summer and winter use as essentially only half the tyre will be optimal at any one time.

Personally would not like that idea :(

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Talked to a local tyre place and changing tyres cost, especially if you buy from them, are not punative (free) otherwise it's 10 per wheel and it avoids TPMS issues. They confirmed no need to change valves each time and you can safely change tyres a number of times as it does not weaken tyre.

Seems best way to do it without having to buy another set of alloys.

Next question would be what are best SUV winter tyres. If you apply same as car tyres it will be Michelin, Continental, Dunlop and Vredistrein.

Now i want it to snow....lol.

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I've gone for these by Goodyear. ULTRAGRIP 8 PERFORMANCE

235/55 R18 104 V FP XL @ £170.15 each from Tyrefactors.com. 'Trade price' via my other club CC-UK

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Tyres arrived this morning just waiting for Mr. T to get the TPMS valves.

null_zpsde50fa91.jpg

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