Full Audio Install

[daPyr0x]

I just bought myself a nice, new, 2004 Corolla Sport (With the sport package, of course ;))....but I'm finding the sound isn't all that great, so I want to redo it.

My idea is this -> pull out the innards of the upper carrying area (if you don't know what I mean, check here - I'm talking about the top handle there that opens up to an open area about the size of a deck) and place a deck there, keeping the door on and usable, and then keep the stock deck in and powered so it looks stock (and nothing will get stolen from my car)

Other than that, I just want to replace the 6 Speakers that are in there and have it sound pretty good. I'm probably going to spend somewhere in the range of 800-1000 (CDN), I don't really want to go over 1000 (869 before taxes). I'm not going to include a sub or a mono amp to power one right now, that might be a project for later.

on to what I need/want

I need a set of 6.5" Speakers for the front. I'd really like it if I could get Speakers that come with the crossover and seperate tweeter to throw up in the top half of the door (where there are already tweeters there stock); and still have 2 way speakers in the lower portion of the door, but I don't know if that exists or even if it's useful (I'm just noticing right now that there's a real lack of midrange in that car). Otherwise, I just need a set of component 6.5" with some sort of crossover.

I also need a set of 6x9 speakers for the rear. 3 way would be optimal, but with my price range and all, I don't know what I can afford and such.

I need an amp for this all. I was thinking probably 100x4 watts, unless someone can really talk me into anything more.

And, the piece de resistance, I need a deck to power all this stuff. I have a bit of an agenda when it comes to a deck, so bear with me. I'll list the things I need in a deck in order of importance - from most to least.

-QUALITY. I don't want something that's gonna break 6 months, a year, or even 2 years down the road. I want something to last.

-Flat-ish face so that I can close the door I pointed out earlier

-Aux in capability - front or rear it doesn't matter, but rear can look cleaner

-rotary volume control - iunno, I like having something I can spin to control volume.

-CD Text capability

-Not one of those Alpine decks. I have nothing against Alpine as a company, I just think their decks are the ugliest things I've ever seen

I'd really appreciate some help here from someone...anyone...lol

So far from where I've been I have this

these for $300 (I think it was those, they looked the same....and I'm pretty sure he quoted me 300....)

these for $200 (Again, I'm pretty sure those were the ones)

And a Blaupunkt 4x100 or 2x200 watt amp that I can't find on their web site for $160

Which brings me to $660 and needing a deck for about $200 - I haven't found a deck that really stuck out to me like "THATS THE ONE I WANT" sorta thing...

I'm not even sure if I want those speakers, they're just what the guy at the audio shop pulled out when I told him what I wanted. The 6x9s are only 2 way, so I'd like to go up to 3 way, but I'd also like to have all my speakers from the same line if at all possible....just me being picky though.

Please, anybody, everybody, tell me your experiences, what you suggest, don't suggest, anything.

I'm new with this car audio thing...I just know what kind of sound I like, and what I want my car to sound like. I'd like to not do any cutting (outside of that bracket thing on the door panels that I read about)....so stock sizes would be great...

Thanks for anything and everything.

[Boro Sera]

Welcome to the TOC mate.

Can't really profess to know that much about Audio installs (it's all fitted as standard in my Sera, Speakers all over the place), but there are some stunning sound systems in members cars here, so the knowledge is around somewhere.

Good luck in finding what you need

Rich

[daPyr0x]

Thanks for the welcome, dude.

I should've said something about that in my first post, being a noob here and all....but those things tend to slip my mind...

Anyways, here's hoping someone here will be able to give me something...I've posted the same (or similar) in 2 other forums I was already a member of and so far nothing.....but there's no harm in asking.

[Hou]

right.......................to start welcome to toc buddy!

Secondly,the pioneer Speakers arent the best for clarity or VFM,the 6x9s shown are only two way meaning they have a tweeter and the mid bass,personally i always try to go for 3 way or more!

The front components are rather expensive for what they are and through experience have found VIBE components and 6x9s the be of great quality and VFM although i dont know what they retail for over there!

As for amp the blaupunkt ones are good for the money providing they are set up right can produce some good sound!

As for head unit (deck as you say) the alpine ones are great but i know you think they are ugly,I would recommend some of the new pioneers and kenwoods but never sony,although this is only my view on this!

Hope this helps,if confused i can explain!

[Panzerbjorn]

Hi mate,

I realise its been over a week and so u may have already bought some stuff (if u have let us know :) ) just thought id add my 2p's worth

If i were you i would stop thinking about the Speakers for a minute and start thinking about sound deadning your car, even if its just the doors and the rear quaters. Depending on how much you want to spend go for either brown-bread, dynamat or dynamat extreme (brown bread being the cheapest but least effective and extreme being the most expensive but best). If you do this you will see a dramatic increase in performance from the current Speakers. especially that all important mid-range that your lacking at the moment.

You shouldnt have spent your whole budget on the sound deadning even if you did the whole car with extreme and like i said i would just do the doors and rear quaters.

What i would then suggest is getting a really good set of front components (thats mid-range, cross over and tweater) because they really are better than just the midrange. I would also recommend amping these Speakers. get a really good quality two channel amp and just have it run these speakers.

Finnally get a good head unit (deck) as Hou said, Alpine generally are the best but if you dont like their styling then its not the end of the world. Stay away from Sony! If your not going to get Alpine then i can recommend Pioneer, Kenwood is a bit of a grey area, they used to be the dogs dangles but now dont seem to be so hot.

To be totaly honest theres no point worrying about the other 4 speakers, id stay as far away from 6*9s as possible unless you are going to install them with a proper acoustic shelf. As the driver be selfish when it comes to ICE and cater for you and only you, after all your going to be in the car more than anyone and you really want the sound stage right up infront of you. If i were u i would fade the rear speakers out totaly but if u have passengers then allow a little bit of sound to come from the rear.

Panzer

[Panzerbjorn]

OK ive just done some sums and it seems that your $1000 canada is about £400 english which is less than i first thought.

Working with this budget i would do this:

I promise you wont regret it if you do!

Head unit (Deck):

Pioneer DEH-P77MP - £230 or $568

Front components:

Orion P6.2 £150 or $370.73

Total so far: $938

Simple as that for your current budget. You will have to run the Speakers through the Deck for the time being but dont worry the internal amp is very and i mean very good! and those Speakers will take a beating even with an external amp!

It may not sound like the big ICE replacement you originally had planned but i promise you it will sound so much better! Your splitting your budget between two items rather than eight or nine which means you are getting better quality for your money.

Also by not buying 6*9s and the like you are seriously improving over all sound quality. Like i said before, fade the rear and middle Speakers out almost completely and just use your new fronts!

The next step when you have some more money should be a sub, id recommed waiting untill you can afford a 5 channel amp as well. That way you can amp the sub, your front components and if you still want your rears to give out some sound, u can amp them as well.

Of course you really should also think about getting some dynamat extreme in the doors especially with those front components. Once you get a sub, id extreme the boot and the rear quaters as well. Of course all of this costs money, but if you build it up over time you will appreciate it more with each step. It will also end up being a much better system that what u planned in the first place.

I know what im suggesting isnt what the guy in your local ICE shop, or companies like JBL etc want you to believe but it really is the truth from experience and from knowing people in the more professional end of the buisness.

If you have any more questions just ask :D im happy to answer them!

Panzer

[Boro Sera]

Clue me in then Guys.......What's wrong with Sony head units?

( before you ask.......no I haven't got one !)

Rich

[Panzerbjorn]

Its quite ironic that ive been slating them but i actually have a sony HU at the mo

Anyway the simple fact is that the sound quality of Sonys isnt that great. You have to spend alot more for a top end Sony that will sound the same as the cheapest, bottom of the range Alpine. Sony have chosen a target audience (mostly boyracers) who are more interested in flashy displays and volume (read distortion) rather than good sound quality.

I bought one of the top of the range Sony headunits (mx-800) when i first started out with my car, it has full dotmatrix animations and loads of stuff like it, now i have all of that turned off. Compared to my mates Alpine that cost him £50 less, mine sounds utter rubish.

It really is that simple, Sony are'nt very good.

Get an Alpine or if you dont like Alpine get a decent Pioneer like the one i posted earlier.

Panzer

[daPyr0x]

I actually haven't bought anything yet.....

Seeing as I've worked out my financial priorities and placed the opportunity to see my girlfriend just a tad above a new car system; it's going to be a little bit before I buy stuff.

Unfortunately, though I love quality; I cannot afford to spend more than $1500 in the end on this stuff because then my insurance premium goes up - and it's already outrageous as it is. I also don't really want to spend more than $1000 on the entire setup.

I might still go for those Orion Speakers (if I can find some in-store to listen to first) beause I found somewhere online to get them for $245 CAD

I dont' think I need quite that high end of a HU, I'd like to see just how high I can get as far as sound quality and features before they start to throw in something useless (to me) like MP3 playback...

I have been thinking about the Infinity 6000CS reference speakers; I've heard good things about them (but again haven't been able to hear the actual Speakers yet)....

I do want to keep my 6x9s in and running - I like having the sound come from all around me rather than ahving a specific direction (with the exception of the left and right stereo effects that are made to be there)....though I doubt I'll put nearly as much quality into the 6x9s as the 6.5"s...I saw a set of decent Pioneer 3-way 6x9s that seemed decent enough....

That's all I have so far though. Right now I'm trying to get as much as I can from everywhere so I know precisely what I want and get good prices and good quality when I'm ready to buy everything.

[Panzerbjorn]

Ok mate i hear what your saying ;) If your not interested in extra stuff like MP3 play back but you still want good sound quality and you dont want alpine then i think the lower range pioneer is the way to go.

If you insist on getting some 6*9s then put them in a decent parcel shelf. Dont get 6*9s and a sub, choose one or the other (looks like your going for 6*9s)

When i say i decent shelf i mean a proper acoustic shelf. You can buy them for $245 or you can make one yourself with two layers of MDF and some acoustic material.

Theres nothing worse for sound quality than 6*9s in the standard parcel shelf. Also they will be on display for all the world to say which screams 'steal me'.

Re-thinking the plan slightly i would get the Pioneer DEH-P2600R head unit for $250, a set of Pioneer TS-A6920 6*9s (four way) for $200 and spend the rest of MDF and acoustic material for the parcel shelf.

that still gives you change left over and you get the same front components.

Hope that helps some

Panzer

[daPyr0x]

Panzerbjorn: I'm a total noob when it comes to car audio - I'm more of a home audio kinda guy myself - but what exactly do you mean by a decent shelf?

Also, why no on the 6x9s *and* sub?

[Panzerbjorn]

Hi mate, sorry its taken me so long to reply, ive had a hectic few days.

Like i said in the post above, if your going to get 6*9s then put them in a proper acoustic parcel shelf. Im pretty sure i posted why above.

As for not having 6*9s and a sub heres why.

Basically you have your sub in the boot (trunk) and your 6*9s sitting in the parcel shelf on top of the boot space. Speakers work by moving air around and with both sub and 6*9s you will have three cones trying to push the same air about. The sub is a much larger cone and because its playing deeper notes, its going to be pushing more air and harder. That means that the 6*9s wont actually be pushing any air but they will be getting pushed themselves by the sub. This can lead to not only poor sound quality from the 6*9s but over time they will die a nasty painful death and you wouldnt wish that on anyone now would you hehe.

so yeah dont mix 6*9s and a sub and if you go the 6*9 route buy or make an acoustic parcel shelf.

Panzer

[daPyr0x]

That's cool...but I did still want to know exactly what a 'proper acoustic shelf' was....

I don't know my car audio well at all really...

Also, I've been thinking that maybe what I'll do is I'll buy a 2 + 1 channel amp to power my front two Speakers and add a sub to later, and then buy two cheaper 6x9s and hook them straight into the deck's preamp outputs... If I want to when I get the sub installed I can just fade em out...because I won't have spent too much money on em (also means I don't get absolute **** sound if I have to take out the sub to make mroe room in the trunk or something)....

Is it safe to assume that the deck will put out a signal not only on it's MOSFET outputs but it's non-amped outputs as well?

I'm really curious about this proper audio shelf business though....

Do keep in mind, too, that I'm not driving the Corolla that I see most often around here as a hatchback, I have the new 2004 US Toyota Corolla - full sedan style....so that rear deck is a bit less easily removed....though I could jsut be blowing smoke out my *****..

[Panzerbjorn]

Ok mate, sorry thought i had explained it better than i did, heres a decent explanation for an acoustic shelf.

Basically your average shelf is about 5mm thick, and when you cut out the holes for the 6*9s you make it even weaker than it already is.

Once again its all down to physics. The speaker is shifting air by vibrating a cone. The cone is attached to the metal frame which is screwed into your really thin shelf. As the cone vibrates it vibrates the frame which in turn vibrates the shelf. The shelf is thin and weak and so alot of the kenetic energy from the speaker is moving the shelf rather than the air. This results in crap sound quality and you end up wasting alot of the speaker's potential.

The other problem with just cutting out holes in your current shelf is that the Speakers will be on display which screams "break in to me". The final problem is once you've cut it, you will have to get a new one if you ever want to sell it etc etc.

An acoustic shelf solves all of these problems.

Whether you buy one or make one they will be doing the same thing.

The first thing is this Its thick. If you make one yourself you will want two layers of 180mm or 200mm MDF/plywood. so thats effectivly 4cm thick. This minimises the shelf vibrating because obviously 400mm is alot stronger than 5mm even with holes cut in it. You can then cover it in epoxy and/or glass fibre sheet for added strength.

Once you have your two sheets cut the holes for the 6*9s where ever you want them but make sure they line up on both sheets.

There is a choice as to what you do with your two sheets. You can attach them both together with epoxy and glass fiber sheet/wood glue, or you can bolt them together. Ill explain the pros and cons of both.

If you epoxy them together then its a perminant thing, the shelf will very solid but you will have to screw the 6*9s into the under side of the shelf. This is good if you plan to up grade your 6*9s in the future without a lot of hassle.

The other option is to bolt the two sheets together. This way you can sandwich the speaker in between the wood. While the actual shelf wont be as strong it will hold the speaker in much tighter. However, this option makes it hard to change Speakers if you ever wanted to upgrade them.

The best option would be to sandwich the Speakers between the wood and then epoxy the lot but this means you would never be able to change the speakers.

Once you have decided how your going to attach the speakers its time to finnish the shelf. So that it doesnt look like a flat piece of wood in the back get the original shelf and map out how it looks as far as topography goes. Then get a thin bit of MDF/plywood and make the same topography as the original. Attach it to the top layer of the shelf and obviously have the holes for the 6*9s cut out so the top layer doesnt block the sound. Then get hold of some acoustic material. They do it in all sorts of colours so just find the colour that best matches your interior. Use a spray adhesive to cover the wood and then lay on the material in one sheet being carful to not get any lumps/bubles etc. Dont cut the holes for the speakers because this then keeps them from being on display. That keeps the car secure and gives you much better sound. Of course it also helps when you come to sell the car because if the new buyer doesnt want 6*9s in the back you can put the original in.

Thats basically it, alot of work but well worth it or you can buy a custom made on from www.autoacoustics.com but like i say they are more expensive and they will make the ones where you have to screw the speaker into the underside of the shelf.

It shouldnt make to much difference about a sallon shelf and a hatch back. If you cant get it out then how were you plannning on installing the 6*9s in the first place hehe?

As far as the HU goes it will send signal to the pre-outs and the normal out puts so u wont have to worry about that.

getting a 2+1 amp is a good idea as long as you can get a good quality one. Which make were you thinking of? I think that might be the best option because you dont really need to amp your 6*9s, its just extra expense which you dont need. Id go for the Orion 6.2, a nice 2+1 amp and some cheap 6*9s in a good shelf and then get a really good sub at a later date.

Keep me posted mate

Panzer