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Does This Snooping Apply To Toyota Hsds?

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This thread was inspired by an item on the Free Software Foundation (Europe) website.

In its Zoe electric car, Renault apparently has the ability remotely to prevent the Battery from charging. And that’s more chilling than it sounds. When you buy a Renault Zoe, the Battery isn’t included. Instead, you sign a rental contract for the Battery with the car maker.

The contract contains a clause giving Renault the right to prevent your Battery from charging at the end of the rental period. Renault may also do this when you fall behind on paying the rent for the Battery. According to a Der Spiegel article, the Zoe (and most or all other electric cars) collect reams of data on how you use them, and send this data off to the manufacturer without your knowledge. This data tells the company where you are going, when, and how fast, where you charge the Battery, and many other things besides.
(LINK)

I wonder how true the claims about privacy invasion are, whether they apply to Toyota HSDs and whether they also apply to other vehicles.

Absolutely unbelievable if true.

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Thats a bit spooky...Big Brother style. They should be charged for that ! But seriously, i know you only rent the Battery off Nissan with the Leaf...didn't know others do it. Not so with the Plug in Prius...probably my next car.

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I am not aware of any such system in the Prius that I drive. I am aware that the diagnostic system used in servicing the vehicle has access to stored data, but as far as I am aware it is only available through a hard-wired connection or a short range bluetooth device. I am aware that a connection could be made through my smartphone, but I am not aware of any direct WiFi system in the car. I know that there are GPS systems that can broadcast data but again none fitted as standard in the Prius.

There are systems that collect data automatically, but I would be surprised if the law in this country allowed them to operate clandestinely in a commercial context.

As an example, the government is providing funds for the free supply and installation of electric vehicle charging points on domestic premises. They will only install such a point if you agree to their automatic collection of data about the use of such a point. They make use of WiFi through O2 to do the collecting and you have to agree to a survey to ensure that there is an adequate O2 signal where the point is to be installed. So there is nothing secret about it.

I would be interested to know if anyone has any hard information to the contrary.

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I would say for Toyota HSD's it is nothing to worry about. You don't rent the Battery, or sign up to anything that suggests you do. You either buy the entire car outright or you purchase it on finance (with our without deposit depending on what package was on offer at time of purchase).

There is nothing in the Auris HSD that could send data back to Toyota on where you have been etc, it does not have a GSM or GPRS or 3G or whatever capability.

For those with the built in Sat nav, possibly, and I stress possibly, at service time they may be able to pull a record of where you have driven and at what speed, but surely this would have been highlighted long before now.

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Think this is purely to do with plug-in vehicles. Tesla recently had a tiff with a New York Times reporter who published a poor review of the Tesla S. Tesla contested the review and published data logs from the car - http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-what-it-says-and-what-it-doesnt/

Don't think Toyota owners need have any concerns as, unlike the Renault electric vehicles, Toyota Battery packs aren't leased and, once the car has been purchased, the Battery packs don't remain the property of the manufacturer (which is where Renault is coming from).

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This thread wasn't actually intended to be anything to do with the Renault Leaf or the concept of "renting" a power source, it was meant to discuss the implications of data collection on modern cars, not even limited to HSDs or electric vehicles.

I can see why any car manufacturer might find it handy accurately to determine how a vehicle had been driven prior to an unexpected and expensive warranty claim. Similarly I can certainly see how this information could be of value to an insurer:

"Aviva Drive's app is free to download and uses your phone's inbuilt GPS to track how you brake, accelerate, and corner."

I have no idea what data is currently collected, what will be collected in the future or who will have access to it - "G" stats anyone? I imagine that any manufacturer's R&D department might find it handy to know how their cars are actually driven out in the real world.

As to the Tesla disputes with Top Gear and John Broder of the New York Times, wouldn't it be nice if manufacturers were compelled to release genuine MPG figures garnered from their onboard computers rather that the unattainable, theoretical figures that appear in their glossy brochures ;)

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Most cars these days log data onto the car's ECU, a lot of it is things like fault codes and such, which can be recovered by connecting to the car's OBD port. Other information could be logged and obtained from the ECUs such as speeds, G-forces, braking forces etc, which could be useful in the event of a RTA.

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I've heard the police investigators can extract useful data about how a car has been driven recently from the Onboard Diagnostic port after a serious crash

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I've heard the police investigators can extract useful data about how a car has been driven recently from the Onboard Diagnostic port after a serious crash

I imagine that the same is true in the case of Insurance assessors.

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The answer is NO there is no way to transmit this info as some sort of spyware, but data logging does occur and can be interogated by the manufacturer if required.

Kingo :thumbsup:

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The answer is NO there is no way to transmit this info as some sort of spyware, but data logging does occur and can be interogated by the manufacturer if required.

Kingo :thumbsup:

It is that seemingly innocuous phrase "data logging does occur" that is somewhat disconcerting.

Many modern cars include SatNav systems which arfe essentially a GPS receiver, processing capability and some storage. Increasingly often they also have reversing cameras. I have no idea whether they typically also include some mechanism for measuring G force. The upshot of all this is that they could potentially capture a great deal of very detailed information on your usage of the vehicle.

As to access by the manufacturer, it is likely also to be accessible by the dealer who services your car, by the Police and by an Insurance Assessor amongst others . . . but probably not by the NSA and GCHQ ;)

When it comes down to it, I am really not that concerned about the potential privacy issues. After all, "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear". However, it would be kinda nice to know exactly what data logging does occur.

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G-Force in different directions, e.g. pitch, yaw, acceleration, braking etc. are all measured by the VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) computer, via various sensors on the car.

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G-Force in different directions, e.g. pitch, yaw, acceleration, braking etc. are all measured by the VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) computer, via various sensors on the car.

I believe in the USA there have been cases of Police obtaining similar data from the Airbag computer

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There's also the "drive like a girl" insurers who will put a black box into your car and download all your driving data to determine what sort of risk you are.

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There's also the "drive like a girl" insurers who will put a black box into your car and download all your driving data to determine what sort of risk you are.

You must mean "drive like an old girl". My experience of modern girls driving would indicate the exact opposite of what I think you are trying to convey. Your modern girl typically seems to drive like they have no understanding or sympathy for life, their own machinery or that which belongs to anyone else.

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