I Wonder!

[stompe]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2766915/Revealed-The-car-makers-tricks-boost-MPG-claims-leave-drivers-forking-400-year-petrol.html

[FROSTYBALLS]

Looking at the Real MPG section of the Honest John website makes interesting reading.

Looking at several mainstream manufacturers, generally owners are getting nearer to the official mpg for older models than current models. For example:

2002 Toyota Corolla - owners achieve 97% of the official mpg.

2007 Toyota Auris - 84%

2013 Toyota Auris - 77%

2004 VW Golf V - 96%

2009 VW Golf VI - 88%

2013 VW Golf VII - 73%

2004 Ford Focus - 88%

2008 Ford Focus - 85%

2011 Ford Focus - 79%

1998 Peugeot 206 - 98%

2006 Peugeot 207 - 88%

2012 Peugeot 208 - 80%

2005 Peugeot 107 - 83%

2014 Peugeot 108 - 68%

2009 Renault Clio III - 83%

2012 Renault Clio IV - 73%

There are a few cars where owners are getting nearer to the official mpg for newer models than older models, but generally the picture is as outlined above.

As far as I'm aware there have been no significant changes to the fuel consumption testing regime to be the cause of poorer results for newer models.

Viewing manufacturer average mpg is misleading as, for example, it may include three generations of model rather than just the current range.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

The Real MPG section of the Honest John website isn't based upon anything more than what people put in (or at least this was the case originally).

The best real world figures are fuelly imo, where you can look in depth and see if the figures have been manipulated or not (IE consistently recorded).

[Grumpy Cabbie]

But everyone knows to take the official ratings with a pinch of salt.

Doesn't it depend on the type of car too though? The Prius is rated at 72 mpg in ideal circumstances and if I drive at 50/55 on a flat A road, then I get that or more. Mrs Cabbie has an IQ auto and it is almost impossible to get more than mid 40's to the gallon even using all the techniques I use on the Prius. It just won't average more than about 47 mpg when trying my absolute hardest. The official rating is about 56 mpg.

Hasn't it been reported that some Yaris hybrid owners are not averaging as well as the Prius and/or Auris HSD? That car is advertised at about 85 mpg and I'd wonder if that really was achievable or whether the car has been tuned for the mpg consumption cycle rather than real life?

The whole mpg ratings are rubbish though. Just look at the way plug ins are rated. An Ampera getting 147 mpg or a PIP getting 124 mpg. It's all nonsense. The PIP will get the same as a Prius when the Battery is down or 999+ mpg when running on electric. It all needs updating, though I'm not sure the US system is to be copied. Their system seems to bias more to gas guzzlers.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

But everyone knows to take the official ratings with a pinch of salt.

Doesn't it depend on the type of car too though? The Prius is rated at 72 mpg in ideal circumstances and if I drive at 50/55 on a flat A road, then I get that or more. Mrs Cabbie has an IQ auto and it is almost impossible to get more than mid 40's to the gallon even using all the techniques I use on the Prius. It just won't average more than about 47 mpg when trying my absolute hardest. The official rating is about 56 mpg.

Hasn't it been reported that some Yaris hybrid owners are not averaging as well as the Prius and/or Auris HSD? That car is advertised at about 85 mpg and I'd wonder if that really was achievable or whether the car has been tuned for the mpg consumption cycle rather than real life?

The whole mpg ratings are rubbish though. Just look at the way plug ins are rated. An Ampera getting 147 mpg or a PIP getting 124 mpg. It's all nonsense. The PIP will get the same as a Prius when the battery is down or 999+ mpg when running on electric. It all needs updating, though I'm not sure the US system is to be copied. Their system seems to bias more to gas guzzlers.

The PIP does get better MPG than the standard Prius on HV only runs as the Battery accepts charge faster (being Li-ion?) than the standard Battery on the none plug ins apparently. Like you say though, an acclaimed 134.5MPGe for the PiP is going to be circumstantial - some could get a lot better if used in EV 95% of the time, or people like me worse if doing a 50 mile daily commute.

[Parts-King]

The Mail spouting publicly known information available years ago..........nothing new there then!

If the tests allow for these so called cheats then the tests should be changed

There is an implication that everyone is fiddling the figures, they probably are, but all fiddling it in exactly the same way as these "cheats" are completely legal

It is up to the EU to decide how these tests are conducted, at least they are all in the same boat, there has to be some sort of standardised procedure so future customers can compare eggs with eggs

[PeteB]

This isn't a new phenomenon - when the BMC original Mini was launched in 1960, it was hailed as a car that could do 70 mph and 40 mpg, but no one expected both at the same time!

I once owned a Fiat 126 (600cc 2-cyl 24 HP lawn mower engine in the boot) - driving like a saint on a good day, I got 62 mpg, hammering it to fail to keep up with Minis, Hillman Imps, Morris Minors etc I only averaged 42!

In my current 2012 T3 Prius, driving sensibly but at or near the speed limits on my 120 mile each way trips I do nonce or twice a month it's not hard to get 72-74 mpg on this display (so minus about 4) which I'm very happy with.

Equally, longer local journeys at 20-40 mph get up to low 90s! But most tank to tank values are in the low to mid 60s, pulled down by lots of cold starts, more so in the winter.

[RunningInPleasePass]

Looking at the Real MPG section of the Honest John website makes interesting reading.

Looking at several mainstream manufacturers, generally owners are getting nearer to the official mpg for older models than current models. For example:

2002 Toyota Corolla - owners achieve 97% of the official mpg.

2007 Toyota Auris - 84%

2013 Toyota Auris - 77%

2004 VW Golf V - 96%

2009 VW Golf VI - 88%

2013 VW Golf VII - 73%

2004 Ford Focus - 88%

2008 Ford Focus - 85%

2011 Ford Focus - 79%

1998 Peugeot 206 - 98%

2006 Peugeot 207 - 88%

2012 Peugeot 208 - 80%

2005 Peugeot 107 - 83%

2014 Peugeot 108 - 68%

2009 Renault Clio III - 83%

2012 Renault Clio IV - 73%

There are a few cars where owners are getting nearer to the official mpg for newer models than older models, but generally the picture is as outlined above.

As far as I'm aware there have been no significant changes to the fuel consumption testing regime to be the cause of poorer results for newer models.

Viewing manufacturer average mpg is misleading as, for example, it may include three generations of model rather than just the current range.

Perhaps the deterioration in accuracy can be put down to two things:

The manufactures are getting better at fixing the tests in their favour, mostly because MPG is so much more important now.

Modern cars have so many more bells and whistles now for the driver to use, air con etc, these use fuel, and as part of the test these are turned off.

Just add about 20% to the official figures and you will be nearer real world driving numbers!

[timberwolf]

<snip>

Perhaps the deterioration in accuracy can be put down to two things:

The manufactures are getting better at fixing the tests in their favour, mostly because MPG is so much more important now.

Modern cars have so many more bells and whistles now for the driver to use, air con etc, these use fuel, and as part of the test these are turned off.

Just add about 20% to the official figures and you will be nearer real world driving numbers!

The tests are out of date and a poor match for the various engine "stop" and "go" technologies.

[stompe]

Does it fall under the Trades Discription act? And wouldn't it be refreshing if a manufacturer actually stated a reasonable working average?

[Seamaster73]

The Prius is the first car I have ever owned where I can beat the manufacturer's published MPG figures.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Does it fall under the Trades Discription act? And wouldn't it be refreshing if a manufacturer actually stated a reasonable working average?

No it doesn't come under the Trades Descriptions Act - if they wish to sell vehicles within the EU, manufacturers have to have these tests done, and have to quote the test figures for use as a comparison between models.

See the following extract from the Vehicle Certification Authority's information on fuel consumption testing:

How Representative of Real Life Driving are the Standard Tests?

Because of the need to maintain strict comparability of the results achieved by the standard tests, they cannot be fully representative of real-life driving conditions. Firstly, it is not practicable, nor is it viable to test each individual new car. Only one production car is tested as being representative of the model and this may produce a slightly better or worse result than another similar vehicle. Secondly, there are infinite variations in driving styles, as well as road, car and weather conditions, all of which can have a bearing on the results achieved. For these reasons the fuel consumption achieved on the road is unlikely to be the same as the official test results. The purpose of the official fuel consumption test is to provide data that will permit a comparison of the fuel consumption of different cars, rather than to provide an estimate of average, on-the-road, fuel economy.

It is recognised that, for a variety of reasons, the fuel consumption achieved by the majority of motorists is poorer than that suggested by the standard tests, and work is going on with the intention of introducing a new test cycle which will better represent the way in which most people actually use their cars.

[JSHarris]

Hybrids REALLY highlight the standard fuel consumption test method shortcomings, in terms of giving a reliable indication of true fuel consumption a user will get .

A few examples:

My first Prius (bought in 2005, so a Gen 2), was used for a 45 miles each way rural commute. I clocked up 65,000 miles in it over three years and the average fuel consumption never achieved the published figures. It varied between around 52mpg to may be 60 mpg on a very good day.

My second Prius was a 2010 Gen 3, also a T4. This averaged between 54 mpg in winter to around 63 mpg summer, so again failed to meet the published figures (but I wasn't driving the test method driving sequence).

My third Prius is a December 2013 Plug in. This delivered over 146 mpg on the first tankful for my 16 mile each way commute, plus a couple of longer journeys, and looks like it is going to average around 170 to 180 mpg just for my daily commute. This is very significantly better than the best mpg figures that Toyota quote from the standard test method.

My other half has a Yaris hybrid. She's new to driving a hybrid and in the frst couple of weeks of ownership she is a bit concerned at only getting around 50 mpg on her 10 mile each way commute. By coincidence, I've also been driving an identical (but 6 months older) Yaris hybrid courtesy car today, and it is giving me an indicated 70mpg on my 16 mile each way commute. Both of these figures are below the apparent figures for the Yaris hybrid from the official tests.

The bottom line seems to be that hybrids are far, far more sensitive to driving style and the nature of the drivers average journey than "ordinary" cars. For someone doing around the 16 mile each way rural commute I do, with the ability to charge at each end, then the PiP is going to very significantly outperform the published figures. The same car driven 50 miles each way a day on motorways might struggle to get 55mpg, though.

[Sagitar]

Hybrids REALLY highlight the standard fuel consumption test method shortcomings, in terms of giving a reliable indication of true fuel consumption a user will get .

My third Prius is a December 2013 Plug in. This delivered over 146 mpg on the first tankful for my 16 mile each way commute, plus a couple of longer journeys, and looks like it is going to average around 170 to 180 mpg just for my daily commute. This is very significantly better than the best mpg figures that Toyota quote from the standard test method.

The bottom line seems to be that hybrids are far, far more sensitive to driving style and the nature of the drivers average journey than "ordinary" cars. For someone doing around the 16 mile each way rural commute I do, with the ability to charge at each end, then the PiP is going to very significantly outperform the published figures. The same car driven 50 miles each way a day on motorways might struggle to get 55mpg, though.

I agree largely with this (and also with most of Grumpy's comments). My PiP mileage figures vary so widely that they are almost meaningless. My best tankful :- 255.6 m.p.g. My worst tankful :- 94.6 m.p.g. It is little to do with my driving style, but mainly to do with journey distance and the ability to plug-in and re-charge.

For weeks at a time, my journeys may be limited almost entirely to round trips of less than about twelve miles. In these periods I can get average mileages well in excess of 200 m.p.g.

I have just finished a week of holiday in Norfolk with no opportunity to plug in and my daily mileage figures during the holiday were always in the high seventies i.e. about 78 or 79 m.p.g. This is significantly better than I got with the Gen 3 T-Spirit in the same circumstances.

[Bibsy]

My old 2008 Gen 2 Prius - computer would read (let's say) 62. A calculation on brim to brim actual fuel would make that a true 58 or 59. Fair enough.

My "only had it a few weeks" 2011 Auris HSD - computer reads 60, but the calculation on brim to brim actual fuel yields a true 62. Hmm. Wasn't expecting an under read in the display! But it's happened on the last two fill ups, bearing in mind I've only had three fill ups so far....

[MEP's Yaris GS]

For someone doing around the 16 mile each way rural commute I do, with the ability to charge at each end, then the PiP is going to very significantly outperform the published figures. The same car driven 50 miles each way a day on motorways might struggle to get 55mpg, though.

You'd have to be really tanking it to get only 55mpg in a PiP even without charging from experience.

I have just finished a week of holiday in Norfolk with no opportunity to plug in and my daily mileage figures during the holiday were always in the high seventies i.e. about 78 or 79 m.p.g. This is significantly better than I got with the Gen 3 T-Spirit in the same circumstances.

This ties in with the MPG return on my PiP with no plug in, between two fill up's over 374 miles with no pluging in I returned 71.2mpg sitting at 65MPH on the motorway and a bit of round town driving in birmingham.

[JSHarris]

For someone doing around the 16 mile each way rural commute I do, with the ability to charge at each end, then the PiP is going to very significantly outperform the published figures. The same car driven 50 miles each way a day on motorways might struggle to get 55mpg, though.

You'd have to be really tanking it to get only 55mpg in a PiP even without charging from experience.

I'm only going by the displayed consumption history on my ex-demo PiP. The salesman who was using it as his daily company car was doing a fast commute along a motorway each day and was getting around 52 to 54 mpg! My guess is that he wasn't plugging it in at home, but I think he was at work, as the car sat in their charge port parking space and the charge cable (the IEC62196 one, not the one the car comes with) looked well used.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

We all know the tests don't reflect actual traffic conditions, well unless you live in quiet rural France perhaps. But my view of official ratings is that if you recon on getting 3/4's of the official combined rating, you'll be fine.

The Prius excels on that basis. When I bought mine I knew the official was 72 mpg and knew that was unlikely but would be happy with 45/50 mpg. To get 50-75 mpg depending on driving style and journey was a pleasant surprise. Anything over 50 mpg in an automatic petrol car with zero road tax is actually amazing.

[johalareewi]

Anything over 50 mpg in an automatic petrol car with zero road tax is actually amazing.

It's even more amazing given the size of the prius, and more amazing still that it does it loaded with 4 adults and luggage. :)

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Anything over 50 mpg in an automatic petrol car with zero road tax is actually amazing.

It's even more amazing given the size of the prius, and more amazing still that it does it loaded with 4 adults and luggage. :)

And even more amazing with my big fat lead foot on the accelerator. You really can't get less than 45 mpg (actual) unless you really manage to hammer it at every opportunity, and even then our roads are so congested that you'll have to slow down at some point bunging your mpg's up.

(had a friend with a Skoda diesel say how impressed they were with its economy of 47 mpg on a long run. lol, I think they misunderstood my look of astonishment lol. I mean, how do you rain of their parade politely?)