No Cabin heating and coolant issues

[vwchico1,6i]

So im guessing you happy with the lid like i said.

I only use toyota coolant.

When i bought my Rav the coolant was almost empty

I drained all old coolant out and put in Toyota's brand of coolant in and 4000 km i have not had any drop in the coolant.

Mine has same as yours coming out the over flow.

Does yours have a radiator cap?that could also be an issue.




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Sorry i see you have a 180t no rad cap.

Just look at where you drain the radiator i know thats also a common place the oring becomes less affective over time.

Also check iv seen where you drain the engine block of fluid maybe thats leaking slightly.

Im sure you would see a bit of coolant or misting on the dipstick like chocolate milk if it was headgasket.





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[Heidfirst]

19 hours ago, Jpadie said:

 Can the cylinder head not be removed in situ?  I can see why you might need to remove the engine if the block needs skimming.

Fyi Toyota say that this block/head should not be skimmed ( although we know that people have done so apparently OK). That is why their warranty solution to the head/head-gasket issue was replacement.

[gjnorthall]

I don’t tend to post on this forum nowadays, but it’s noticeable that this post is going around in circles and there is much misinformation. Firstly, the car is displaying the usual head gasket failure symptoms of this engine. The failure on this engine is unlike the classical head gasket failure mode whereby the head sometimes warps before gasket failure or there is a distinct failure track between say an oilway and a coolant jacket. Infact the gasket, when removed, will reveal little sign of failure and as such, conventional tests such as coolant temperature or cylinder compressions will be inconclusive. Toyota use a sniff test to determine the presence of combustion gases in the head space of the expansion bottle and a positive result would be pretty conclusive of a gasket failure – ie the cylinder charge / combustion gases are getting into the coolant jacket. This would result in the coolant being expelled under pressure via the expansion bottle vent and the remaining coolant may appear to foam.

It’s possible, but very difficult, to remove the head in situ and in overall terms it’s easier to remove the engine. You seem to be confident that the engine isn’t using oil excessively – this is important since gasket failure will recur if a high oil consumption issue isn’t sorted.

It wouldn’t appear that there’s much wrong with the coolant pressure cap, but since it’s been lifted frequently, I’d change it together with the thermostat (think about changing the coolant pump – it’s a lot easier to change now than later!)

Other than oil consumption related issues – the gasket issue is generally that of gasket design and composition – the new Toyota gasket is different. You’ll probably notice what appear to be bits of aluminium foil on the head surface where the gasket has deteriorated – almost embedded in the metal. The head needs to be skimmed (yes I know Toyota tell you not to) to clean any imperfections and give a good bite on the new gasket. The very minimum skim of around 7thou should be the aim – just sufficient so that the stone has contacted the whole head (use engineers blue)  – talk to the machine shop so they’re not overzealous! I’ve never seen a block that needs skimming on this engine and a clean up with oiled fine wet and dry should suffice (use circular motion – don’t rub inline)

The Toyota head gasket is available in five different thicknesses for selective assembly. The thickness of the gasket is indicated by the number of notches on the long edge of the gasket. There is a cut-out on the cylinder head so that you can feel the number of notches on the gasket fitted. If this is less than 5 then go for a 5 notch gasket which will compensate for the skimming of the head (if it’s already a 5 gasket then there is an alternative solution but the vast majority of gaskets I’ve seen are around 3)

There are several good brands of gaskets, seals and stretch head bolts available (FAI, PAYEN etc) from motor factors at less than half the Toyota price but buy a genuine Toyota head gasket!

If you’ve used leak sealer in the coolant then give the system a good clean and flush before starting work. Use genuine Toyota coolant to refill – the concentrated version is competitively priced against aftermarket.

Lastly it’s not a good idea to keep running a Rav with an obvious head gasket failure – you’ll probably end up causing more damage to the cylinder head surface.

 

 

[Jpadie]

Thank you.  So i take it that the conclusive test for gasket failure is to test for carbon monoxide (or dioxide) in the coolant reservoir (once the engine is warm).   That's a relatively easy test to carry out.  

I will be replacing the thermostat and reservoir cap, as you suggest. the thermostat is here already.  No chance of toyota branded coolant unfortunately.  

 

[gjnorthall]

It's basically a test for carbon dioxide. There are kits available for £10 - 15 which comprise a bung, length of tube, a bubbler bottle and a supply of indicator liquid. The bung replaces the reservoir cap and any gases are bubbled through a liquid in the bottle. A distinct colour change would strongly indicate a head gasket issue. There's no reason why the engine shouldn't go on to cover mega miles reliably - it all depends on the quality of the job including machining to the correct surface finish, correct bolt tightening and ensuring that mating surfaces are perfectly clean. 

[vwchico1,6i]

We are not miss leading anyone we are trying to help look for small things first.

But that would of been my next bet check for blowby gasses in the antifreeze.

And yes you skim heads not blocks regardless if its toyota or not.



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[gjnorthall]

I don't think I suggested that anyone was miss-leading. The important thing is that with the probable fault in question - the fact that coolant temperatures are OK and compression pressures are OK can miss-lead one into concluding that the head gasket is OK.

[Jpadie]

ah.  I had misunderstood then.  So this still could be an HG issue.  Sniff test has been bought.  Let's see what that says.

of the symptoms listed by Toyota for their out of warranty replacement:

* Coolant Water being blown out of the expansion tank and the colour sometimes turning darker in colour.

* Excessive Fuel consumption.

are both present.  but the excessive fuel consumption (10l/100km) has been present since the engine remap that was done in 2009 at the same time that they replaced the fifth injector.  Consumption went from 7-8l/100km to 9.5-10.5l/100km overnight.  Toyota have always adamantly denied that anything they did could have had any such impact.  The proximity in time (one day to the next) has always made me enormously sceptical of that claim.  

 

unfortunately my car is well outside the 7 year extended warranty period.
 

[Jpadie]

just in case anyone interested, attached is a pic of the foaming. 

 

 

[alan333]

Is that the sniff test?

[Jpadie]

nope.  waiting for the reagent to arrive.  should be Saturday.  

 

this is a pic i took earlier in the week with the cap off and having run the engine for perhaps 5 minutes.  

[Jpadie]

so ... today I drained all the coolant from the radiator spigot, then filled with fresh water and ran the engine to help flush out the cylinder head (couldn't find the drain bolt on the head, the toyota diagram being somewhat abstract). once the water started coming out clean I reinserted the drain plug and refilled the system with distilled water.  then ran the engine again.  Foaming occurred within five minutes.  

Engine off, I let some water out (it was about 65C) and then did a sniff test.  results are here as a video and still.  

video:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/iXf9akvdhvygQbWp2

after 3 mins:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/acMAvhGxP4zpny7k1

So this looks like there are combustion gases in the coolant after all.  But no problems with compression.   So this does sounds like the classic failure that is reporting on this engine and that @gjnorthall describes.

Given that Toyota would have replaced the engine were it in warranty, is it even worth taking the head off to switch out the gasket (and skim if necessary)?  i.e. once the engine starts exhibiting the issue will it just re-occur after each fix?   And if I do decide to take the head off, is it just the head gasket that needs changing or are there are whole bunch of other gaskets/sealers that should be replaced at the same time; and is it normal to replace the head bolts too?  Apologies for the plethora of questions, I have never taken a head off before.   Oscaro (the go-to online parts supplier) has this set of 'joints' (this word in French includes gaskets, o-rings, washers and similar): https://www.oscaro.com/pochette-rodage-reinz-02-53930-01-4057943-319-p. and the head gasket is here: https://www.oscaro.com/joint-de-culasse-reinz-61-53930-10-4059200-318-p

Re the head gasket - there are different thicknesses on offer as mentioned by @gjnorthall - if no skimming is needed then I guess I replace like with like?  I assume it's worth trying to get any carbon deposits off the insides of the cylinders and the exposed faces of the valves?  Anything else worth doing whilst the head is off?  I guess the water pump, even though mine seems fine, should be replaced.  confusingly, the water pumps online look little like that which is on my engine!   

I am looking forward to getting better fuel consumption after this; although I suspect that 28mpg is within the normal range for this car.  Although I was expecting more like 45mpg.  For the first 6-7 months that I had the car it was doing 37-40 and I thought that was bad!  then after the fifth injector replacement and engine remap it instantly dropped to 28mpg.  it's been an expensive travelling companion.  

lastly - the toyota tech manual requires that the engine is removed - that's not going to be possible for me.  I've not got the lifting gear that would be necessary.  Are there any resources that describe the approach to take the head off when in situ?  

thanks for all the help so far.

Justin 

 

 

 

[gjnorthall]

There were two issues with this engine and in your case there is no issue with oil consumption so fixing the failed cylinder head gasket will solve the issue permanently. You may be well wasting your time and money not skimming the head for reasons previously stated - the mating surface needs to be cleaned up and the surface ground to the recommended roughness or a gasket failure may recur.. Also removing the head with the engine in situ is very difficult and involves partial lifting of the engine. As previously recommended - use a genuine Toyota gasket. As part of gasket renewal it's sensible to clean off accessible deposits and replace the valve stem seals.

[vwchico1,6i]

Also to add you have to skim the head it warps with heat there for leaving an un even surface but what you could do is take it off and send it to the engineers they will most likely skim it and redo the whole thing.

Well thats what they do here dont know by you.

Im sure the injectors exhaust amd few other things will need gaskets and oring ect.

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[Jpadie]

The difficulty I have is rather prosaic.  The nearest Toyota parts place is too far for me to drive with the car at the moment and once I take the engine out I have no other means of transport.  

So it is difficult to get the right Toyota parts and it won't be practical to take the head to a machine shop (and despite asking around I have not come across anyone that runs a machine shop).  I was planning to buy a flat surface like some glass or plexiglass and stick some different grits to it to be able to do a relevelling.  But I'm also hopeful that since the engine has never overheated there might not be any warpage.  

I see that the flat rate manual for the engine do-ever is 24.9 hours.  Which I find quite daunting.  I'm hoping it will be rather less if there is no need to change the pistons etc.  

 

[Jpadie]

Follow up question:. The Toyota workshop manual requires use of special Toyota tools in a number of places.  These I don't have and are ridiculously expensive. 

 

Are these 'nice to have' or can the engine not be taken out without these tools?