2010 1.33 Yaris gearbox question

[Seeker]

I suppose my first question would be: "Are they all this bad?"

The car is a 2010 1.33 VVTi, 6 speed with about 34k miles.  It has been regularly serviced by the main dealer and on the last service I asked them to drive it because I thought the gearbox was diabolical for a modern (ish) car. The dealer said it was normal (how many times have you heard that?).  It is/was my Dad's car but since he can longer drive, I'm now chauffeur, he wouldn't let me drive it when he was able so I don't know if the car has always been like it.

It is awful when cold - reluctant to the point of absolute refusal to accept the lower gears.  If you coax it and make a few attempts, reverse is possible (after a few clutch in/outs and other gears), first depends if it's in the mood (usually not).  First to second must be undertaken slowly and you can almost feel the handshake going on inside (no crunching though).  Second to third - now its starting to get the idea (until we go the other way).  From then on everything is wonderful - well, ok, not exactly wonderful - let's say tolerable.

When the gearbox is warm, things improve a lot but I still don't consider it a nice feeling gearbox.  Until my Dad's health prevented it, I got a job as a field engineer and used a Vauxhall Insignia and a Ford Focus both of which had pleasant feeling gearboxes.

I've read about synchro ring issues but there's no recall or fix (that I'm aware of) and I've read that different oils may help so I've decided to add some molyslip.  

Here's the stupid question - the youtube videos indicate that the gearbox filler hole is on the front of the gearbox but I think the 6 speed's has been moved - would I be correct in saying it is now on the top of the gearbox?  Thanks for any suggestions (especially, the helpful ones!)

 

[Seeker]

With most motorcycles it is easy to find an exploded parts diagram or even a workshop manual on line but it took me a lot more digging to find a parts diagram for the Yaris. 

Anyway I found this site...

https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/genuine/unit?c=Toyota&ssd=%24HQwdckgWVlERDhZJVEgEBgYFEB8UFAIRWwgTFmVzYXV7SUlZEF5XFwgTFngnNUACYRl2en9zbjxHVRIRQlYQCRQUX1dOZREYFRBVXVJJX1kEA0lLR1pQdhBHGltXFg8AHxZQAgFbCBEHBgIBFhpJDBcQCRYGAQAMDl8kW09Na3VDXWt8DyoteQRyDRM%24&vid=0&cid=2&uid=12196&q=

...which shows the location of the 6 speed gearbox oil filler; it is on the top.  I'll add the Molyslip and if it makes any difference I'll let you know.

 

 

[Gerg]

Your reluctant gear change has a hint 'dragging clutch' about it.

In recent years Toyota has developed a phobia about drifting floor mats getting under the pedals, so your dealer service history should mean that these mats are regularly checked, and are not impeding the full clutch pedal travel(???).

On our ancient (2001) Corolla, the gear change was improved a little by reducing the pedal 'dead play'. This car has a hydraulic clutch, so officially self-adjusting, (Yaris? - don't know), so this was done by adjusting opposing nuts on the master cylinder actuating rod (in the pedal box - fiddly access).  Obviously there has to be enough play left for the release bearing not to be permanently loaded, but you might have a feel for such things from adjusting the controls of your SV650?

I have used Molyslip in several car gearboxes over the years, but whilst I have faith in the molybdenum disulphide lubrication benefits (I have an unopened tube in the garage, fwiw), it has rarely made that much difference to the gearbox change quality, sadly.  (As an aside, molybdenum disulphide is a factory recommended additive on some Moto Guzzi gearboxes, but then they have no syncromesh).

If the car has been left standing over winter or has covered ultra-low mileage recently, I wonder if the clutch plate is not moving freely on its splines (rust?), which would probably improve with use.

Also, might be worth trying to establish if the gearbox oil level is correct.

[Seeker]

I have considered clutch drag as a possibility - especially since I thought I'd noticed a slight forward movement of the car when engaging first, as yet I haven't been able to reliably duplicate that though.  In my hours of browsing (!) I did see read a road test/review on buying  a used Yaris and it refers to "a solid car with a clunky gearbox" so it does seem to be a characteristic , albeit an unpleasant one.   Clutch pedal free travel - maybe an inch at the pedal (from memory), I'll take a look at that though.  The floor mats were subject to a recall to fit a clip to stop them moving.

Despite the low mileage,  the car does get used frequently - a lot more recently with 60 mile trips to the hospital for Dad's radiotherapy.  I'll keep poking around and try not to break anything.

All the bikes I've owned (I've been riding for 47 years now) have had wet clutches which means no friction modifiers and there's no synchromesh on bike gearboxes either.

 

[Gerg]

I only mentioned the Guzzi as it's the only gearbox, bike or car, where I've seen a manufacturer approve of such an additive.  Molyslip type additives often seem to get lumped in with many more dubious concoctions, when as you likely know, the science behind them for many applications is proven.

The bike clutch reference was just highlighting that as all the controls on a motorbike are more tactile than a car, you'd likely to be able to estimate how much free play a car clutch might need on the back of having adjusted so many bike clutch controls;  I'm always keen to minimise the 'clunk into first' on any bike I've had.

[Devon Aygo]

11 hours ago, Seeker said:

With most motorcycles it is easy to find an exploded parts diagram or even a workshop manual on line but it took me a lot more digging to find a parts diagram for the Yaris. 

Anyway I found this site...

https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/genuine/unit?c=Toyota&ssd=%24HQwdckgWVlERDhZJVEgEBgYFEB8UFAIRWwgTFmVzYXV7SUlZEF5XFwgTFngnNUACYRl2en9zbjxHVRIRQlYQCRQUX1dOZREYFRBVXVJJX1kEA0lLR1pQdhBHGltXFg8AHxZQAgFbCBEHBgIBFhpJDBcQCRYGAQAMDl8kW09Na3VDXWt8DyoteQRyDRM%24&vid=0&cid=2&uid=12196&q=

...which shows the location of the 6 speed gearbox oil filler; it is on the top.  I'll add the Molyslip and if it makes any difference I'll let you know.

 

 

The filler is not on the top of the transmission it is in the end of the casing , in the link you show the filler plug is 33101a and like most manual transmissions is filled by adding oil through the filler until it spills back and then you refit the plug. 

There is also a technical service bulletin that may apply to your situation:

CP-0008T-0311

Subject: Yaris - TMMF- 6MT - difficult to shift especially to 1st & 2nd

Models: YARIS

Model codes: NLP130; NLP90; NSP130; NSP90

DESCRIPTION OF PHENOMENON Some customers may complain of difficult to shift especially to first and/or second gear

REPAIR PROCEDURE Recalibrate the select cable with the below procedure.

The recalibration takes half an hour to complete.

[Cyker]

I  find the 6-speed shifter quite nice; It has a noce short throw and a more positive engagement feel than the 5-speed in my old Mk1 D4D.

However, I have been finding it won't go into 1st sometimes, like there's an obstruction, no matter how hard I try and force it in. Happens most often when trying to move off again after a stop-start event.

I had that very very rarely with my old Mk1 and the fix was to put it into neutral, release the clutch, and try again, but this doesn't work for me with the Mk2 6-speed. However, I've found if it happens, I can go into 3rd and then 1st (Don't even need to release the clutch between this!) then it always lets me get into 1st.

When was the last time the gear oil was changed? I seem to recall the Mk2 Yaris gearbox is very sensitive to oil. There was at least one car that would be hard to shift using a multi-grade gear oil but was fine with a single-grade gear oil...
 

[Seeker]

13 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

in the link you show the filler plug is 33101a

yes, but there are two 33101A plugs shown - an upper and a lower, plus there is a video on youtube showing how to change the g.box oil (on an earlier model) that shows a drain plug and a refill plug (every time I add the link it embeds the video, if I say 'add it as a link' it deletes the post, but it's easy to find on y/tube - kQ4j9Az06uE ). 

I'll try adding the molyslip through the top plug (when it arrives), what could possibly go wrong 

[Devon Aygo]

Adding through the top would mean you can't be sure you haven't overfilled the oil, you would need to open the side plug and let out the excess.

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, Devon Aygo said:

Adding through the top would mean you can't be sure you haven't overfilled the oil, you would need to open the side plug and let out the excess.

yes, I thought I'd syringe some out through the top to match what I'm putting in, we'll call that plan A,  plan B will start when I can't locate syringe or tubing.  (Hopefully we won't reach plan C which involves calling the dealer to remove tubing that I've dropped inside the gearbox).

 

(to prevent plan B - I've just ordered a new syringe and tubing)

Edited February 21, 2018 by Seeker
added a comment

[rufnek2kx]

Would be interested in seeing how you get on with this. I have the same car and i've noticed that sometimes it seems to get stuck going into first/reverse. The only way around it for me has been to put it in neutral, re-engage clutch and try again. Temperature doesn't seem to make a difference as it's done this towards the end of long journeys too.

[Seeker]

Update:  I added some Molyslip - the sachet contained 65ml so I put half of it in (it said it was "double strength").   One phenomenon I wasn't expecting was that the gearbox appeared to be under pressure - there was a slight hiss when I undid the filler bolt.  I had sprayed the filler bolt with penetrating oil but it wasn't necessary, it came undone without undue effort (car is 8 years old).

Has it made a difference: Yes

Has it transformed the gearbox into world class status: No

I have only driven the car for 20 miles since adding the Molyslip but the gear change action is definitely better.  It was 1°C outside and the the initial first to second didn't require two hands on the lever and one foot braced against the firewall (maybe a slight amount of hyperbole), all the changes seemed improved and just when I felt like whistling, I tried to select first at a (stationary) junction and it refused. Oh well!  If there any changes, good or bad, I'll let you know.

[Seeker]

Update 2:  I've now done a couple of hundred miles and the Molyslip has definitely improved the gearbox.  I did another 60 miles today and, allowing for the warmer temperatures, the initial reverse selection to pull out of my garage and the initial 1st to 2nd change were slicker.  It will never be a world class gearbox but the Molyslip has helped the gear selection.  I'm on the fence as to whether I should add the rest of the sachet (a further 32 ml), I'll probably run it for a bit longer before deciding.

[stantheman1]

Thanks for updating and please keep us informed of your findings. 

[Billycreamchees]

I had difficulty with 2nd gear mainly and eventually found and adjustment that allows the gate shift To be altered.

The gate shift rod wasn’t pushing into the gearbox far enough.  There appears to be some springiness with the rod I guess to cushion the force toward the gearbox.

The locking device is coloured plastic and is not a screw but needs releasing by careful pressing then the threaded bit bit can be moved to suit.

Hope this helps.

Roy

[scannerman]

On 2/20/2018 at 7:54 AM, Seeker said:

With most motorcycles it is easy to find an exploded parts diagram or even a workshop manual on line but it took me a lot more digging to find a parts diagram for the Yaris. 

Anyway I found this site...

https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/genuine/unit?c=Toyota&ssd=%24HQwdckgWVlERDhZJVEgEBgYFEB8UFAIRWwgTFmVzYXV7SUlZEF5XFwgTFngnNUACYRl2en9zbjxHVRIRQlYQCRQUX1dOZREYFRBVXVJJX1kEA0lLR1pQdhBHGltXFg8AHxZQAgFbCBEHBgIBFhpJDBcQCRYGAQAMDl8kW09Na3VDXWt8DyoteQRyDRM%24&vid=0&cid=2&uid=12196&q=

...which shows the location of the 6 speed gearbox oil filler; it is on the top.  I'll add the Molyslip and if it makes any difference I'll let you know.

This Diagram is for the MTM gearbox, not the 6 speed. The filler for the 6 speed is on the side as someone stated, from memory its on the front side of the box. Remember not to undo the drain plug until you have released the filler plug, nothing worst than dumping the gerbox oil only to strip or break the filler plug. If you are going to replace the gear oil, I would recommend Toyotas own gear oil, whatever the put in it it seems to work and lasts.

Unfortunately any extra mats under the pedal will make the gear change bad, if left it may damage the synchros over time.

[flash22]

2018 post 😐

5th and 6th are up high on the end of the box so are the first to go with low oil if the car has 50k miles or more dropping the oil and refiling with fresh doesn't hurt

[scannerman]

On 2/19/2018 at 2:47 PM, Seeker said:

I suppose my first question would be: "Are they all this bad?"

The car is a 2010 1.33 VVTi, 6 speed with about 34k miles.  It has been regularly serviced by the main dealer and on the last service I asked them to drive it because I thought the gearbox was diabolical for a modern (ish) car. The dealer said it was normal (how many times have you heard that?).  It is/was my Dad's car but since he can longer drive, I'm now chauffeur, he wouldn't let me drive it when he was able so I don't know if the car has always been like it.

It is awful when cold - reluctant to the point of absolute refusal to accept the lower gears.  If you coax it and make a few attempts, reverse is possible (after a few clutch in/outs and other gears), first depends if it's in the mood (usually not).  First to second must be undertaken slowly and you can almost feel the handshake going on inside (no crunching though).  Second to third - now its starting to get the idea (until we go the other way).  From then on everything is wonderful - well, ok, not exactly wonderful - let's say tolerable.

When the gearbox is warm, things improve a lot but I still don't consider it a nice feeling gearbox.  Until my Dad's health prevented it, I got a job as a field engineer and used a Vauxhall Insignia and a Ford Focus both of which had pleasant feeling gearboxes.

I've read about synchro ring issues but there's no recall or fix (that I'm aware of) and I've read that different oils may help so I've decided to add some molyslip.  

Here's the stupid question - the youtube videos indicate that the gearbox filler hole is on the front of the gearbox but I think the 6 speed's has been moved - would I be correct in saying it is now on the top of the gearbox?  Thanks for any suggestions (especially, the helpful ones!)

 

The gearbox was never the best, although perfectly acceptable with practice. Lots of gearboxes are sometimes reluctant to go into first at standstill, I think its caused by the gears and synchros not rotating. Forcing it will only make it worse, I won't go into detail why. If it's reluctant, put into second and up to first, always works for me. Just for your info, in the DVSA driving book 'The Essential Skills' it mentions that first from standstill it may be a problem in any car, its solution is to go neutral, off the clutch, clutch down and select first again.

This box doesn't aways repay quick changes, slamming gears or 'racing' changes are totally unnecessary in modern driving. The synchros action is almost immediate but it does take a tiny time to do it so take your time changing.

[Stevie J]

The gearbox in my 2006 1.3 is an absolute pain for getting into reverse from a standstill, and often I get that annoying grinding noise as the gear goes in, but more often than not, it wont go into reverse without first releasing the clutch, then depressing the clutch and selecting reverse again. Getting first can also be an issue requiring a declutch and re try to get first from a standstill. I tried bleeding the clutch slave some time ago as the biting point has always been very close to the carpet, but it made no difference, and there is no other adjustment on the mk2 clutch pedal to master cylinder linkage, which is plastic of all materials to use.

Once you get used to the Mk2 finicky clutch, and take your time over gear changes from first to second in particular, plus always ensure the clutch pedal is pressed completely to the carpet for each gear change, you learn to live with it, but even now, after 4  years of owning this car, I still get caught out getting reverse, and embarrassingly noisily grind the gears as it crashes into reverse.

[scannerman]

Just another thought, I don't think its been mentioned but Its important that the clutch fluid is in good condition. Its supposed to be changed every two years as it deteriates over time, plus the system needs to well bled. Any moisture or air in the system will have the same effect of not fully pushing the clutch pedal so as to not to disengage the clutch.