Rav4.2 2005 D4D 2.0l - Is this non-interference? Or am I screwed? Cam belt broke!

[Orphic_Audio]

Hi, as in the title, my 2005 Rav4 was driving home down the dual carriageway and there was a clatter - all the engine lights came on, power lost, the power steering and brakes seemed to go and I was lucky to navigate it onto the sliproad towards my house by coasting it and got the handbrake to eventually bring it to a full stop.

Thankfully it was in a city (between Leeds/Bradford) and got a guy to come out in about 15 minutes to tow my car back the 3 roads to my driveway. So there was £45 down the drain already but I guess it could have been worse.

Guy tentatively checked if the car would start and immediately confirmed my fears - almost certainly the cam belt has gone. So now since I just moved to the area I'm getting mates there to recommend a decent garage in Leeds/Bramley area who can look into it.. I know this is probably a new !Removed! engine, but after looking online I found several sources claiming the RAV4 2.0l was a "non-interference" engine, so there might be a chance this isn't stupidly expensive. I'm going to find a garage to come look at it today anyway but thought I would ask - is this the case with the D4D on the Rav4.2? 

Lists like these are about listing the 2.0l Toyota engines as non-interference but I can't find any definitive info. I'm not holding out on this of course, just seems odd it lists diesel and petrol engines but simply 2.0l. https://naijadriva.wordpress.com/2015/07/23/interference-and-non-interference-engines/

Anyone know definitively? It was changed just before I bought it 3 years ago (have a receipt) at I believe 89k miles, it's on 134k now so wouldn't have thought it was quite due, but evidently my rav had other ideas!

Other than that, anyone wanna give me a rough guess at what a new engine should be costing me?

[daveh_rav4]

I tried to find out the very same thing about my 98 Rav4  4.1... nobody on here or even the Toyota UK could not or would not give me an answer.  I went to the American Rav4 forums (http://www.rav4world.com/) to get an answer... they even explained that carbon can get knocked off the piston head valve scoops and get trapped between the top of the piston and cylinder head giving the impression that the engine is locked when you try to turn it!  It does seem that your cam belt has broken at an early milage/time.  I think Toyota stipulate 60,000 km or a maximum of nine years.  Although I have also heard that you can normally expect 90,00km.  Perhaps a none original belt was used on the last change?   I would insist that a genuine Toyota  belt be used if you can get it fixed... it's not worth having the belt break earlier than it should by saving a few quid on a non original belt!

I have vowed never to buy another vehicle with a cam belt... my previous vehicle, an XR2 had a damb cam belt and I was changing that every 40,000km

Good luck... I hope your engine is OK

[Orphic_Audio]

Yeah me too! I've got some guys from Leeds picking it up and that's like £35 which seems reasonable enough, although obviously it's the repair bill I'm looking out for!

You'd think it would be easier info to find out! And yeah I'm gonna insist on genuine parts for sure. Annoyance is I got the dreaded P1251 error earlier which normally just means the turbo needs a clean, so literally minutes before this failure, I had topped up my long life coolant, ordered a full 6l of 5w30 and a Bosch oil filter, popped some diesel turbo cleaner in the half full tank then topped up as recommended with a further tenner of premium fuel.

So part of me wants to just get this thing repaired out of pure spite regardless of cost. 
I literally just paid off the car loan on it this December too, and moved house last month so am financially wiped out right now.. couldn't have come at a worse time.

[daveh_rav4]

Yup, their's no good time for these things to happen... but it's sod's law that they do when you have just had a load of other expenditure!  I am not familure with your model of Rav4... but is your turbo driven off the cam belt?   If it is and the tubo failed/seized then it could have shredded the cam belt''.  So, if you can get away with replacing the cam belt (none interferance engine), make sure you check everything else running off the cam belt is turning freely before you try and start the engine... not sure all these muti-farious sensors crawling over cars these days will save your **** if something else is seized! 

I am down in the arm-pit of the south now... Southampton, but my family were originally from Hutton-Le-Hole in North Yorks; champion aye...  :)

[Orphic_Audio]

Yeah well garage reckon it's probably cheaper in the long run to fit a new engine, although they haven't fitted a new belt yet. I would have thought you could do a visual check on damage but no idea really. They said themselves they would probs source one off eBay so looking at quotes myself. There's one on there for £550 complete with turbo etc and free postage but it's best offer so could probs haggle them to £500. Knocks me mileage in half at least haha, might be cheaper since I had that turbo vanes error. 

Might ask them if they can swap the SCVs over while they have the engine out though - mine are brand spanking new and cost like £192 to have fitted recently so might as well since with the engines out of the vehicles it's pretty much a 5 minute job (good half an hour easy and a bugger to reach if the engine is still in haha).

Anyone wanna make a guess at reasonable labour costs for this? I've got like all the fluids and oil filter already I guess but stupidly took them out of the car. Could have saved a couple of quid but I think it's down in !Removed! Halifax right now!

[daveh_rav4]

I would have thought it would pay to slip on another cam belt before a replacement engine (you can't be sure that won't have issues anyhow).  If you try a new belt first, check that no other item running offthe cam belt is jammed or seized, once the new belt is on you can do a compression test to acertain the valves are doing their job and not bent!  You can even do a visual on those by whipping the valve cover off.  Once you are sure the engine fully rotates by hand you can then try and start it.  Just tell your mechanic not to be fooled by carbon debrea that might have come loose and then gettting trapped between the top of the piston and the cylinder head... this can give the impression that the engine is locking up when you turn it over!  This would have to be desolved ,  flushed out or sucked out.  A replacement engine seems a drastic action if it is just a cam belt; make sure the mechanic knows what he is doing... or find another!

I would have thought a few other UK Toyota experts might have popped up here to help... the other option is to check with the American Rav4 forum...  http://www.rav4world.com

[Orphic_Audio]

I dunno everyone from the recovery guy to all the "car" people I know seem to think a <the spuds of lurrrrvve>sed cam belt is new engine time. 

Problem is right now they're asking whether I just want to go ahead with replacing the engine or not.. as it may cost a bit to get a belt on only to find out I need a new engine. I'm a bit confused by this - partly because I STILL can't confirm whether it's an interference engine or not! It's predecessor, the RAV4.1, was non-interference, and the one after (2005-2010 I think) was interference. Information on the diesel Rav4.2 is incredibly hard to come by, and confused further by Americans who all drive petrols. Although the few things I can find say it's interference now.. crap.

For now I've said at least price up another engine and get us a ball-park quote for parts/labour. I'm gonna scope out decent deals on D4D 1CV-FTV engines online. I guess if the labour's gonna cost a bomb either way I might as well combine it into one big fix, get a new engine, new belt and if this deal online is still there possibly a new turbo. Surely labour is significantly less cost when combined since half the jobs can be done way easier with the engine out already!

[daveh_rav4]

Wow... what have things come to when mechanics are suggesting a replacement engine when a cam belt breaks without evan checking if the engine is damaged!  I hope you get out of the situation without your wallet being mugged!

 

[dago]

the cam belt on my 2001 d4d snapped last year due to water pump bearing failure, i'm afraid you'll find it is an interference engine mine bent 8 valve and cracked 8 buckets and ruind tthe shims as well lucky i was able to fix it myself but the parts alone were over £600  

[Orphic_Audio]

Well the garage my friend recommended to me spent the past couple of weeks messing me about suggesting I need all sorts done, dived right in without actually saying "here's how much it'll cost to properly diagnose" when all I wanted was a proper quote for the engine refurb/replace and labour, and kept adding more stuff and raising the price ("well you wanna get the clutch and flywheel done, oh and refurb the turbo") to the point where it was like £1900 or so - never got a definitive cost or a straight answer and the guy kept saying it was "still a gamble" if I got a new engine put in.. I'd got a bit of an inkling something was up when I suggested the turbo could be exchanged for a pre-refurbished Garrett one for £100 cheaper than his mate could supposedly do. When I said "well since you said you took the turbo out I'm assuming it'll be easy to swap when the courier drops the new one off". You could hear a pin drop.

Decided to just get it back and flog it for spares/repair. Asked what the damage was and he said "A couple of hours labour, plus recovery". Fine.

Turns out on the invoice "a couple" means "three" so I was out £214. Decided to just swallow that and chalk it up to experience, told the lass to get the keys off the guy when he dropped it on the drive while I was at work.

Got back to discover half the engine on my back seat! Seriously, absolute cowboys had decided despite being paid, to not bring the car back in the condition I'd given them it in. Top part of the engine and the cooler were just sat there covered in oil. It's leather seats so thankfully they wiped clean, but you'd at least have the common decency to put them in the boot on top of some bin bags.. or, you know, put them back on the f*&%$! engine!

Rang them up to question this and the bloke immediately goes "well if you want it back how it was you'll have to pay me to do it" - when I suggested he'd already taken a fair wedge, had been less than honest about incoming costs from the outset and had done a lot of this without any prior agreement or diagnosis quote, he started threatening me and trying to start a fight over the phone, screaming "WHO DO YOU THINK YER TALKING TO?" And a lot of F and C words.

KDP Autos in Leeds for those wondering who to avoid.

And if anyone has any advice here to what steps to take next that'd be good - although honestly I just want some peace in my life right now (it has not been a good year).

 

[Ant-Rav]

Very sorry to read about ur trouble. I think u do need to prob write this off, ur mechanic shudda put engine parts in the boot, was maybe sour grapes with him that he wasn't gonna get to do the job. I don't think there wud have been any gain in putting engine back together, it's goosed anyway and wud be more cost. I think when we buy a replacement engine there is a fair amount of risk involved   ( is mileage correct and was the engine well serviced thru its life etc  etc ) and I think u have maybe gone thru to much hassle with this motor anyhow. I'd get it off the driveway, get someone to lift it for u, cos u will hate looking at it. I personally don't think throwing more money at it is a good idea, it is pretty risky. Good luck mate.

[Cyker]

That's unbelieveable!! It's bad enough they didn't put it back together but the fact that they just dumped it on the back seats without covering them with anything is just incredible! If those weren't leather seats they'd be ruined!

[daveh_rav4]

This drama sounds more like a nightmare...  cam-belts should be made illegal.  Anyhow, I know this garage crew, they have repair shops in most towns... 'Bodgit & Leggit Co'  D'oh!

[Orphic_Audio]

Yeah it's mental - part of me wants to go take it to the other guy over Bradford I normally use since at least he's an honest chap and tells you when things are gonna get expensive. Just because I'm highly suspicious that all this guy did was take that cover off and maybe fish the old fan belt out. It doesn't look like owt else has even been out (although hard to tell) - I'm HIGHLY suspicious of his claims to have checked the turbo vanes. Mate of mine says he can't see any obvious visible damage there and it could be the guy never even properly tested it.
So it could be a case of just hoying a new cylinder head on and getting the belt sorted.. but at the same time feel I've had enough chew with this now I should maybe stop throwing money at it.

That said if I can get another garage to confirm he's been lying I've got a receipt here claiming it's been done.. so I'd have good grounds to claim my money back. 
..but again, more chew, more mess on.

Still gonna report him to trading standards anyway. Just the leaving oily parts on the back seat and then the ridiculous phone threats alone justify that.

[atkiman]

Had it happen on a celica years ago, got an import engine, you could spend a fortune on investigating the damage. If you do swap the engine seriously think about doing the clutch and flywheel as well if you intend to keep it, if not get a cheap engine and get rid.

[daveh_rav4]

How did we arrive at this situation... it should not cost a kings ransom to repair a car?  It almost seems that the manufactures are deliberately making them in such a way as to make them economically un-repairable!  Good for car sales business, but not for the earths resources... a car should last a good thirty to forty years before being recycled.  We don't have limitless resources on this planet to just keep making new and scrapping older vehicles.

When I started work as a mechanic in the early sixties it was not unusual at all to be working on cars from the thirties and forties...  We really must stop this waste; we have the technology and materials now to make cars last a lot longer that they currently do.  It’s all about turn-over and new sales/profit. 

[alan333]

At the moment you have an engine which had a broken timing belt.  An untrustworthy garage has taken the rocker cover off but possibly not really checked anything, and you can't find out whether you have an interference engine or not.  I reckon you have some options...

1) Turn the crankshaft by hand.  If it turns complete cycles there's a chance it hasn't smashed anything - so fit a new timing belt.  Turn the engine by hand again and check whether the valves go in/out properly (and without hitting anything).  This will tell whether you have bent valves. If all seems ok then refit the rocker cover and do a compression test.  This will tell if you have smashed pistons.  If all is ok then attempt to start the engine.  Bear in mind you could still have slightly bent valves, so you'll need to see how it goes from there, considering how well (or badly) the engine runs.

2) Strip the cylinder head off and check the pistons and valves.  Replace parts as necessary.

3) Fit a replacement engine.

Personally, I'd start with option 1) which, assuming all goes well, will only really cost the same as having a new timing belt fitted, give or take an hour or so labour.

[daveh_rav4]

Josh, do what Alan sez... basically what I stated in my second post in this thread... but Alan said it better :)  You may be turning a straight forward cam belt job into space opera!  If that sucker turns over by hand and you have compression with a new belt on then fire her up; you have nothing to lose bar the price of fitting the belt.  Better the devil you know rather than a new engine of un-known history! 

Unfortunately it seems that those so called mechanics you were dealing with are scammers!  If you can find an honest mechanic that will tell you like it is... then he is worth his weight in gold!

[Mike169]

I have seen some poor garage work and like Dave I was brought up on simple cars, very repairable, once they went super computerised I decided to come out of the game and do other things.

Your top of your engine just left on the back seat, well I couldn't believe my eyes, it appears they have made no attempt to protect your car or care for it, I am mortified!

Wishing you better  luck!

Mike.