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Procedure When Stationary


Catlover
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I reading different things so bit confused.

When coming to a stop ie traffic lights, what is the Toyota approved way of remaining stationary. I used to press "P", but recently read if someone smashes into the back of me and sends the car forward it will damage transmission. So I now started putting the foot brake on whilst still in "D", is this doing any harm?  Is there a Toyota approved way???

 

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I do exactly as the same in all the automatics I have driven, foot brake on and leave car in drive. 

The only time I will put it in park is the rare occasion the traffic is at a standstill due to an accident or so similar as I know everyone is stoppped for an extended period. 

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Exactly the way I do it with the same considerations in standing traffic.

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Just to clarify.... when I said "foot brake" I meant the "hand brake" operated by the left foot.    I dont like holding a car on its foot brake (right foot hold) especially at night or rainy weather as it blinds the car driver behind, and I have been taught (Institute of Advanced Motorist) that by holding a car on the foot brake (right foot) you havnt got full control in case of a shunt up the back ie your foot will likely come off the foot brake and the car then has no control. 

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This is one of the little niggles about the HSD (and, to be fair, lots of other automatics now!) - They encourage bad driving practices.

With a Manual gearbox, if you are gong to be stopped for anything but the briefest pauses, you should go Handbrake + Neutral - This makes the car safe and doesn't blind the drivers behind you at night ("If a pause becomes a wait, USE THE HANDBRAKE OR I'LL BREAK YOUR LEGS!" as my instructor used to jokingly say. Well, at least I think he was joking...:unsure: :biggrin:)

In the HSD however, you can't use neutral as it will eventually drain the Battery. (Neutral is absolutely pointless on the HSD as it can't actually disengage the gears - Someone told me the only reason it's there is for legal requirements!)

Also, you can't use D + Parking brake as the HSD will try to 'creep' against the parking brake and stress the leccy motor unnecessarily.

Most HSD owners just commit the cardinal sin of standing on the foot-brake (Which, to be fair, is what 99% of drivers seem to do regardless of auto or manual!), but really the 'proper' way would be to engage the parking brake and then hit P so that even if you did get rear-ended the parking brake should take most of the impact and hopefully the pawl for the parking brake won't get sheared off...!

I really don't know why Toyota made the car creep in D with the parking brake engaged - If they hadn't then D+Parking brake would be perfect!

 

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1 hour ago, Cyker said:

...you can't use neutral as it will eventually drain the battery. (Neutral is absolutely pointless on the HSD as it can't actually disengage the gears - Someone told me the only reason it's there is for legal requirements!)

Also, you can't use D + Parking brake as the HSD will try to 'creep' against the parking brake and stress the leccy motor unnecessarily.

Most HSD owners just commit the cardinal sin of standing on the foot-brake...

I really don't know why Toyota made the car creep in D with the parking brake engaged - If they hadn't then D+Parking brake would be perfect!

Using N for short periods of time will do no harm as long as the State of Charge doesn't go below 2 bars, although I'm not advocating using it when stopped in traffic (from 6 bars it can last over 20 minutes if not too many electrical systems are on).

I think it's there in case the car needs to be pushed.  Unofficially, some people also like to select it briefly on the move to rub rust off the disc brakes, as it also disables regen braking.

I'm also surprised crawl isn't disabled when the parking brake is on, even (relatively) cheap Aygo autos (MultiMode) are clever enough to do that!  I don't know why a Hybrid needs to creep at all.  I wish they'd take a leaf out of Tesla's book and have a menu option to choose whether to creep or not.  I used to sometimes drive a CVT Micra which didn't creep, and it was so much more restful in heavy traffic.

Personally I think it's bad manners and bad driving to stay on the brake pedal for more than a minute or so if someone is behind you, especially in the wet and/or night time.

This is in the Highway Code:  "In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.  Law RVLR reg 27".

 

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2 hours ago, PeteB said:

Using N for short periods of time will do no harm as long as the State of Charge doesn't go below 2 bars, although I'm not advocating using it when stopped in traffic (from 6 bars it can last over 20 minutes if not too many electrical systems are on).

I thought this is only a limitation with earlier generations of Prius? I heard leaving a gen 3 or newer in N will still allow it to charge the Battery, although I haven't tested it myself...

2 hours ago, PeteB said:

I'm also surprised crawl isn't disabled when the parking brake is on, even (relatively) cheap Aygo autos (MultiMode) are clever enough to do that!  I don't know why a Hybrid needs to creep at all.

I think they just wanted to make it operate as close to a normal car as possible. One of the primary target markets for the Prius are yanks, who are used to the way a traditional auto box works.

Personally, if I'm stuck in traffic for a long time, I use the parking brake and N. Otherwise I keep my foot on the (service?) brake.

I'd certainly not keep it in D with the parking brake on - I've had enough cars with crap handbrakes to know this could potentially end badly.

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Yeah, it's got to be either foot brake on in D for short stops or just P for long stops, the foot operated parking brake is just for parking as is N.

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5 minutes ago, kithmo said:

Yeah, it's got to be either foot brake on in D for short stops or just P for long stops, the foot operated parking brake is just for parking as is N.

TBH I don't care what the person in front does as long as they're not blinding me!

I tend to stay on the service brake until a car has stopped behind me, and then select P if on level or  P/N plus parking brake if on a slope.

I still tend to watch the mirror intently until a few cars have stopped, especially on a fast road.

If someone still manages to whack me hard enough to damage the transmission parking pawl I suspect that will be the least of my worries!

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1 hour ago, QuantumFireball said:

I thought this is only a limitation with earlier generations of Prius? I heard leaving a gen 3 or newer in N will still allow it to charge the battery, although I haven't tested it myself...

I've heard this rumoured too, but not seen anything in print from Toyota, nor any evidence in either my last Gen 3 or current Gen 4 Prius.

If it happens, it would probably only be once the HV Battery was getting close to danger level, and that's not something I'd want to experiment with.

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I have Gen 2 and use the parking brake (foot operated) + N for waits that are longer than a short stop. For a short stop I will just hold on the foot brake + D.

As pointed out above parking brake + N allow the creep to push again the parking brake. The second reason I use N and not P (other than I don't like holding the car on the parking pawl), is that the change from P to D requires holding the foot brake otherwise it beeps at you and does nothing, but from N to D will engage D without the foot on the brake as I find this a more intuitive and natural work flow.

There is a need to be aware of the state of charge (SoC) of the HV Battery when using N, but, if you are in N and forget about it and the HV SoC drops into the purple bars, it will beep and put a message on the MDF to change to P or D so the HV can charge. I have had this happen but once or twice in over 160,000 km (100,000 mi) of driving my Prius when using the above strategies.

I don't advocate whether this is "correct" or not,  just what I do and find it works well and, in my opinion, what I think is best for my car.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks for all the replies/suggestions so far, keep them coming as to what YOU do.

So far, I am with Joseph D, but open to more experiences. 

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N and parking brake, never had an issue whatsoever and ive had dozens of Hybrid models over the years 

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I just brake and leave it in D. If I know the stop is going to be for a long period (accident ahead, train crossings etc) I press P and apply the left foot brake (but I usually do this solely to prevent my right foot from aching). :biggrin:

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On 3/12/2018 at 11:07 AM, Harters said:

I do exactly as the same in all the automatics I have driven, foot brake on and leave car in drive.

And needlessly dazzle the driver sitting behind you at night :(

 

I can understand leaving foot on the brake until the car behind has pulled up, but there really is no reason to continue to do this after they've stopped. At this point I always put it into park.

If someone hits you from behind and damaged the transmission then its not your problem, thats what insurance is for.

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22 hours ago, Joseph D said:

I have Gen 2 and use the parking brake (foot operated) + N for waits that are longer than a short stop. For a short stop I will just hold on the foot brake + D.

As pointed out above parking brake + N allows the creep to push against the parking brake. The second reason I use N and not P (other than I don't like holding the car on the parking pawl), is that the change from P to D requires holding the foot brake otherwise it beeps at you and does nothing, but from N to D will engage D without the foot on the brake as I find this a more intuitive and natural work flow.

There is a need to be aware of the state of charge (SoC) of the HV battery when using N, but, if you are in N and forget about it and the HV SoC drops into the purple bars, it will beep and put a message on the MDF to change to P or D so the HV can charge. I have had this happen but once or twice in over 160,000 km (100,000 mi) of driving my Prius when using the above strategies.

I don't advocate whether this is "correct" or not,  just what I do and find it works well and, in my opinion, what I think is best for my car.

Hope this helps.

My reply assumed driving scenarios, so didn't actually include what I do when actually parked (on the side of the road or a carpark). In that scenario I engage the park brake and select P. I mention this more for the situation where you are sitting in the car while parked.  I use the parking brake for 2 reasons, First, it exercises the park brake mechanism and, second, it exercises the park brake automatic adjustment mechanism.

 

12 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

(13. If you’re in stop-start traffic, don’t put the car in neutral (‘N’) when stationary, as electricity will not be generated and the hybrid Battery will discharge.)

Acknowledged in my answer and mitigation is also covered. This scenario is covered in my short stop procedure.

However, as it is a blanket one-size-fits-all recommendation, I do acknowledge that what seems to work well in the Gen 2 Prius might not in other HSD powered models.

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As someone who regularly bemoans the lack of common courtesy on our roads, I find it reassuring to see folks on here who are placing the needs of others over their own convenience when stopped in traffic. However, at the risk of causing offence, I would like to suggest that those of you who believe that using Park in traffic is the polite and courteous thing to do are perhaps misguided. In fact, you could be doing more harm than good. Here's why:

Moving from P to D takes time. If you're in front of me, and you're fannying around pumping the brake and getting back into gear when you should be acquiring some forward motion, that is going to inconvenience me far more than a bit of brake light glare could. Maybe one person doing this isn't an issue. But if there's a whole queue of well-meaning 'considerate' people ahead, it means I'm probably not going to get through the lights before they change, which is a pretty damned inconsiderate outcome that has the added affect of negatively impacting congestion and pollution!

More importantly, I would suggest that you could actually be making the 'dazzle' problem worse for the driver behind by going into P. This is because you are going to need to hit the brake again to get back into Drive. In other words, you are going to 'dazzle' the person behind - whose eyesight has adjusted to your lights being off - with a brief burst of illumination right at the very point when they are looking to pull away. Surely, this is worse, and potentially even more hazardous?

I will be honest and admit that I'm not entirely convinced that the dazzle thing is a genuine concern. I was taught years ago to 'avert my eyes' from brake lights if waiting in traffic, rather than staring at them transfixed until my pupils reduced to pinpricks. It's not hard to do, and I am therefore in the 'leave my foot on the brake' camp myself. However, I respect the view that brake lights could still be seen as 'impolite'. If that is indeed your view, then I would suggest the better option is the one suggested by Joseph D and others: just knock your car into neutral and put the handbrake on. The HSD charging thing is a red herring edge-case. And at least then you can switch back to D without touching the dazzle pedal, and pull away nearly as swiftly as you could if you left your foot on the brake!

To add some further information which may be of interest to Toyota HSD owners, my Lexus hybrid has a 'brake hold' function which I originally thought might offer a 'best of both worlds' solution. It lets you take your foot off the brake after a couple of seconds in stationary traffic, and automatically releases when you get back on the throttle. Unfortunately it is more like the worst of both worlds. The brake lights actually stay on even after you take your foot off the pedal, AND it adds an annoying delay when you try to get going again. Technology hasn't answered this one, yet! 

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People get dazzled by brake lights when stationary, but don't get dazzled by them when they are moving, or dazzled by headlights?

I personally think that LED's, both headlights and DLR's dazzle way more than anything else, brake lights are what, 21/5w?, dipped bulbs are, lets say 55w, so why would brake lights dazzle more than headlights?

FTR, I hold brake and keep in D, as I have never felt that the dazzle of brake lights is an issue, as it never has been for me.

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I would suggest an eye test for anyone experiencing brake light dazzle. I used to get phased by people in front holding their foot on the brake until I had my eyes tested and got some new glasses, it doesn't bother me at all now.

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4 hours ago, Ten Ninety said:

To add some further information which may be of interest to Toyota HSD owners, my Lexus hybrid has a 'brake hold' function which I originally thought might offer a 'best of both worlds' solution. It lets you take your foot off the brake after a couple of seconds in stationary traffic, and automatically releases when you get back on the throttle. Unfortunately it is more like the worst of both worlds. The brake lights actually stay on even after you take your foot off the pedal, AND it adds an annoying delay when you try to get going again. Technology hasn't answered this one, yet! 

My Prius has "hill-start assist" which will hold the brakes after you release the pedal, but only for 2 seconds!

I don't really find brake lights dazzling either. Rear fog lights dazzle! I'd stay on the (service) brakes unless I know I'm going to be waiting several minutes.

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Personally, I don't have a problem putting the Prius in P when stopped.  If someone drives into the back of me while I am stopped in P, the transmission is not likely to get damaged.  More likely is the front wheels will skid because they are locked and friction is not going to be enough to turn the driveshaft and break the transmission.  My 10p worth.

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11 hours ago, danowat said:

People get dazzled by brake lights when stationary, but don't get dazzled by them when they are moving, or dazzled by headlights?

I personally think that LED's, both headlights and DLR's dazzle way more than anything else, brake lights are what, 21/5w?, dipped bulbs are, lets say 55w, so why would brake lights dazzle more than headlights?

FTR, I hold brake and keep in D, as I have never felt that the dazzle of brake lights is an issue, as it never has been for me.

You're comparing a power consumption, not light output. Take into account that brake lights are normally headlight, and when stopped behind a car they're directly in front within 10 meters, when driving they're a lot further away - no different to how an oncoming car with main beams on will cause little or no dazzle when a mile away, but at 100 meters will be very uncomfortable.

 

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6 hours ago, QuantumFireball said:

I don't really find brake lights dazzling either. Rear fog lights dazzle! I'd stay on the (service) brakes unless I know I'm going to be waiting several minutes.

Interesting - seeings as they normally have very similar light output levels.

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13 hours ago, Ten Ninety said:

...my Lexus hybrid has a 'brake hold' function which I originally thought might offer a 'best of both worlds' solution. It lets you take your foot off the brake after a couple of seconds in stationary traffic, and automatically releases when you get back on the throttle. Unfortunately it is more like the worst of both worlds. The brake lights actually stay on even after you take your foot off the pedal, AND it adds an annoying delay when you try to get going again. Technology hasn't answered this one, yet! 

I've driven a Lexus NX and a Toyota C-HR with Auto/Hold parking brake and agree about the brake lights.  I used P with this system as well if a stop lasted more than a couple of minutes, but in stop start traffic with brief stops I really liked it.  When stopped in this mode the system maintains pressure in the hydraulic service (main) brake system, which probably accounts for the brake lights staying on.  Selecting P causes the system to apply the park brake automatically if the Auto function is selected.  IIRC you need to be in Auto mode to be able to select the Hold feature.

Similarly, the brake lights stay on when my Gen 4 Prius' Adaptive Cruise Control stops in a queue, and I'll switch from that into P as well for a longer stop, but of course if I want the park brake (if not on the level) I have to do that myself.

What really surprised me was your comment about the delay on stetting off from Hold mode.  On both cars I tried the slightest touch of the throttle released the brake instantly with a faint click sound and the car moved off smartly.  Have you driven any other cars with the system to compare?

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