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Mike J.

Four Wheel Drive Prius

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It seems that Japan already have a 4WD Prius, but the US (and Europe perhaps …. ?) looks like it may get it soon:

4WD Prius

If the UK is to get it, perhaps the C-HR (and Yaris) will be next? Count me in for a small 4WD hybrid.

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If Toyota are introducing a 4WD Prius, Europe will probably be a lower priority than the US and China.

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3 hours ago, Mike J. said:

It seems that Japan already have a 4WD Prius, but the US (and Europe perhaps …. ?) looks like it may get it soon:

4WD Prius

If the UK is to get it, perhaps the C-HR (and Yaris) will be next? Count me in for a small 4WD hybrid.

bear in mind that 4WD on the RAV4 hybrid adds £2k - would you pay that extra on a Yaris or C-HR?

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15 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

bear in mind that 4WD on the RAV4 hybrid adds £2k - would you pay that extra on a Yaris or C-HR?

I already have an interesting hybrid and would not change it for anything other than a step change such as PHEV and/or 4WD, so yes! Note that my other active cars have been owned by us  for 14, 16 and 28 years, so only step changes make me buy. Other reasons to buy are available.

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No doubt that Toyota will be delighted that you would consider spending an extra £2k for 4wd on a car that could be yours from £16k without. 😛

Have you ever genuinely felt that you needed 4wd on your Yaris (how about a set of m+s tyres?)?

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Perhaps the current PHV has 4-wheel drive, it's just Toyota GB don't know and it's "not switched on", like cabin heat/cool and perhaps the adaptive headlights 🤣

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9 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

No doubt that Toyota will be delighted that you would consider spending an extra £2k for 4wd on a car that could be yours from £16k without. 😛

Have you ever genuinely felt that you needed 4wd on your Yaris (how about a set of m+s tyres?)?

Same could be said about the extra cost of hybrid-ity.

I am pointing out, as a person who keeps cars a long time, that for Toyota to get a new sale (from me) it has to add a new dimension.

Looking at the future for Toyota, it seems to me they have been losing ground; e.g., where is the PHEV RAV4 to compete with the Outlander, why are the South Koreans leading with smallish PHEVs and EVs. Toyota have all the NIMH, Li, PHEV and 4WD knowledge necessary and should be pumping out combinations of them in each car sector. I still can't understand why they have spent loads of development time on the 2 litre Corolla version of the hybrid rather than make a PHEV version which would play more to their hybrid tech. strengths.

If you read Yaris posts you can see I have just chucked on some winter tyres.

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52 minutes ago, Mike J. said:

Looking at the future for Toyota, it seems to me they have been losing ground; e.g., where is the PHEV RAV4 to compete with the Outlander, why are the South Koreans leading with smallish PHEVs and EVs. Toyota have all the NIMH, Li, PHEV and 4WD knowledge necessary and should be pumping out combinations of them in each car sector. I still can't understand why they have spent loads of development time on the 2 litre Corolla version of the hybrid rather than make a PHEV version which would play more to their high tech strengths.

Europe isn't Toyota's priority for PHEVs - China is, followed by the US. See https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/corporate/22325409.html

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20171217/COPY/312179993?template=mobile02&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

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13 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

... Have you ever genuinely felt that you needed 4wd on your Yaris (how about a set of m+s tyres?)?

Just one journey that I can complete safely or even at all, which I couldn't otherwise, would be enough for me to spend that sort of money, provided there were no other unacceptable (to me) compromises. such as loss of spare wheel - which seems likely as the extra rear electric motor and axle would probably take up space needed for a spare.

Many years ago before Hybrids and when I preferred fairly small cars, I would have considered the Sabarau Justy (a Nova sized car with 4WD) if they'd only done an automatic version.

It has been said that a 2 wheel drive car with winter tyres is better in bad weather than a 4WD on summer tyres, but a 4WD on winter tyres will be best of all.

[BTW I had the winter tyres put on my Prius a couple of weeks ago.]

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3 hours ago, Mike J. said:

why are the South Koreans leading with smallish PHEVs and EVs. 

Leading isn't the word I'd use. Have you been in an Ioniq? Absolutely hateful thing. Didn't even bother taking it for a drive, the interior was so bad! 

I think Toyota is playing it safe, and probably rightly so. Most people are still fearful of anything that plugs in and the recent story about how many PHEVs never get plugged in at all highlights the level of general ignorance about this kind of car. I suspect it makes business sense for Toyota to hang back and let other 'braver' manufacturers push for greater acceptance, whilst seeing their vehicles suffer catastrophic depreciation and relatively poor sales. 

Whilst I share your frustration that this means I can't yet buy a plug-in Yaris, or a full EV Prius, both of which would be of personal interest, I can understand why Toyota don't currently make these options.

As for 4WD, it's not really a good match for hybrids, given its negative impact on economy. I also fail to see its practical value on a car which isn't 'sporty' or designed for off-road use. I would suggest that tyres and ground clearance are all that matter in the snow. Although, in this country, the sad truth is that in winter it matters far more what the cars behind you and in front of you have fitted!

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6 minutes ago, Ten Ninety said:

... Although, in this country, the sad truth is that in winter it matters far more what the cars behind you and in front of you have fitted!

Not to mention whether the driver uses enough brain cells to realise it takes longer to stop when it's snowy and/or icy, regardless of how many wheels are driven or what tyres are fitted!

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The RAV4 Hybrid, AWD version, was more than adequate in 'normal' winter conditions.

What I might question is, given the experience of the Prius PHV, is whether there is sensible design within the small car such as the Yaris, for a larger Battery to provide sensible PHV capability. Yes, other manufacturers have, perhaps it's just the case Toyota don't want to; do they perceive a market for smaller PHVs given their (apparent) reluctance to give us the latest Prius PHV.

 

@PeteB - How do you find the drive with those winter tyres on?

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5 hours ago, Mike J. said:

Same could be said about the extra cost of hybrid-ity.

Looking at the future for Toyota, it seems to me they have been losing ground; e.g., where is the PHEV RAV4 to compete with the Outlander, why are the South Koreans leading with smallish PHEVs and EVs. Toyota have all the NIMH, Li, PHEV and 4WD knowledge necessary and should be pumping out combinations of them in each car sector. I still can't understand why they have spent loads of development time on the 2 litre Corolla version of the hybrid rather than make a PHEV version which would play more to their hybrid tech. strengths.

There are people where the fuel/tax savings of a hybrid will pay for itself over it's life  - not an argument applicable to 4wd.

Have you seen the report in the last few days that says that the majority of UK PHEVs (certainly fleet) never get charged? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46152853

The reason that Outlander PHEVs sell ~10,000 p.a in the UK  (the most in Europe but around 1/2 the no. of hybrid Auris here is/was due to tax treatment) - that may well now change.

I think that you will find that development time on the 2.0 is pretty much all on the drivetrain & not so much on fitting it in the Corolla per se & that that drivetrain or developments thereof will be used in multiple vehicles.

Until there is a multiplicity of chargers (& electric infrastructure to back them up) PHEVs still don't make sense for the majority of the market, at least in the UK.

2 hours ago, PeteB said:

It has been said that a 2 wheel drive car with winter tyres is better in bad weather than a 4WD on summer tyres, but a 4WD on winter tyres will be best of all.

.This is true but the incremental increase will be small. My winters are standing by - not bad/cold enough yet to go on on here but give it  a week or so.

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1 hour ago, altocumulus said:

@PeteB - How do you find the drive with those winter tyres on?

I bought my Nokian WR D3 winter tyres when I had my Gen 3 Prius, and this is their 4th winter, last and current winters on my Gen 4 Prius (mighty glad the 15" wheel size was the same on both!).

Ride and handling has been as good as the stock Bridgestones both cars had to start with, they are very slightly less quiet.  It's hard to be sure what effect they've had on mpg, I'm sure there must be a small penalty, but not enough to worry about.  There have been a few days recently that have dropped below 7°C, it was a actually 2°C the day I went to my dealer to have them swapped (and the wiring harness recall done at the same time).

Last winter was the first to really benefit from them, with 2 bouts of snow that were brief but would have been more challenging on the stock tyres.  The first, last December, was when I was diverted onto some minor roads off the A11 which had about 2½" snow on top of sheet ice.  Luckily, there was no other traffic, and the car was still slightly twitchy once or twice, but quite manageable.  The other was compounded by some deep drifts across the A12 in quite high winds where the snow was blown across farmland, but again they coped fine.  In the picture the bus was held up by a Volvo where its driver was struggling to free himself from the drift snow in the single open lane.

By the time I get them swapped back in March, at least 2 will probably be close to the 3mm tread depth which is the minimum I will tolerate.

180301_111200_I1_54715_front.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ten Ninety said:

…. and the recent story about how many PHEVs never get plugged in at all highlights the level of general ignorance about this kind of car.

This maybe another case of fake news. If the charging cables have not been used this is not a sign that the car has not been charged as home charging points are normally fitted with their own cables. 

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9 minutes ago, Mike J. said:

This maybe another case of fake news. If the charging cables have not been used this is not a sign that the car has not been charged as home charging points are normally fitted with their own cables. 

No. The news article was based on research which looked into company car drivers driving habits and fuel consumption. See one such article - https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105206/fleet-owned-plug-in-hybrids-may-never-have-been-charged

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1 minute ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

No. The news article was based on research which looked into company car drivers driving habits and fuel consumption. See one such article - https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105206/fleet-owned-plug-in-hybrids-may-never-have-been-charged

I suggest you read further on for the fake news bit - it shows up naivety:

"Paul Hollick, The Miles Consultancy's managing director, told the BBC, which commissioned the research: “There are some examples where employees aren't even charging these vehicles up. The charge cables are still in the boot, in a cellophane wrapper ......” 

What is also missing is that you will still have regeneration and the second owner will almost certainly want to use the full PHEV-ness so, in the long run, it is not all bad.

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The research wasn't concerned with second owners - it looked at fleets, company car driving habits and fuel consumption for the fleet vehicles. Nothing to do with private owners or second owners. 

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2 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

Until there is a multiplicity of chargers (& electric infrastructure to back them up) PHEVs still don't make sense for the majority of the market, at least in the UK.

The lack of charging infrastructure is exactly why PHEVs make sense, especially for those who have short commutes but also have a monthly long journey and only want one car - the large minority, I suggest.

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Just now, FROSTYBALLS said:

The research wasn't concerned with second owners - it looked at fleets, company car driving habits and fuel consumption for the fleet vehicles. Nothing to do with private owners or second owners. 

I was pointing out the plus side. I also pointed out the 'fake' bit.

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The consultancy will have evidence of the number of drivers who didn't use the charge cables - so that, in itself isn't fake news. What is missing from the article is any form of quantitative data on those who didn't use the cables, so the reader doesn't know how widespread the issue is. 

If I were a company car driver with a PHEV, unless the company provided a charging point at work and/or at home, and contributed to the home electric costs, I wouldn't use the cable. 

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59 minutes ago, Mike J. said:

The lack of charging infrastructure is exactly why PHEVs make sense, especially for those who have short commutes but also have a monthly long journey and only want one car - the large minority, I suggest.

eh no, what about the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) that don't have a guaranteed parking spot e.g. people who have to park on the road & can't run a cable across the pavement etc..

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1 hour ago, Mike J. said:

I suggest you read further on for the fake news bit - it shows up naivety:

"Paul Hollick, The Miles Consultancy's managing director, told the BBC, which commissioned the research: “There are some examples where employees aren't even charging these vehicles up. The charge cables are still in the boot, in a cellophane wrapper ......” 

What is also missing is that you will still have regeneration and the second owner will almost certainly want to use the full PHEV-ness so, in the long run, it is not all bad.

The consultants worked out the mpg of the vehicles from receipts/records etc. - if they were being charged via other cables this would have shown up from the mpg figures.

Out of interest what happens to the Battery condition of a PHEV that hasn't been charged for 3 years?

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1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

eh no, what about the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) that don't have a guaranteed parking spot e.g. people who have to park on the road & can't run a cable across the pavement etc..

?? what about them?

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3 hours ago, Mike J. said:

The lack of charging infrastructure is exactly why PHEVs make sense, especially for those who have short commutes but also have a monthly long journey and only want one car - the large minority, I suggest.

 

24 minutes ago, Mike J. said:

?? what about them?

How do those people who don't have dedicated parking, and who may be interested in a PHEV, charge their vehicle whilst taking into account the lack of charging infrastructure? 

About time we got back to the topic subject - ie. Four wheel drive Prius. 

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