FROSTYBALLS

PHEV grant has gone for good

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See https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/exclusive-government-wont-reinstate-plug-hybrid-grants

Extract from the article:

"We have to spend the tax payers’ money in a way that reflects the changing market,” said Norman. “The evidence was very clear: owners of plug-in hybrids were not plugging them in, negating the environmental benefits and undermining the incentives."

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I couldn't read the article as I won't disable my adblocker.

However, from your highlighted comment ............. how was the evidence "very clear" that the owners of plug-in hybrids were not plugging them in?

Rather a sweeping statement I think, and there is no way that they can know.  Perhaps they surveyed some owners and extrapolated the numbers nationally?

Mick.

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I can assure who ever did this survey that I plug my plug-in in!!!!

I guess they mean company drivers were taking the tax advantage, but to tarnish us sensible folk - shocking!

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Even you don’t plug in they are still more efficient and much cleaner than the rubbish diesel cars ! 

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There were a few reports in the press a while ago that leasing companies had cars returned at the end of their lease (typically 3 years for company cars) where the charging cable was still in a sealed wrapper.

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV was mentioned a few times, as it sold like hot cakes and probably still will to some extent as I suspect the primary appeal to business drivers is the Benefit In Kind tax rate more than the purchase subsidy, although the subsidy may well have brought the car into a price range that allowed more company car drivers to choose one.

Whilst not conclusive, as some may have charged on a home unit that came wit ha cable and/or charging station that had a cable, my observation from my days of company car use is that many don't even dip the Oil during their tenure, so plugging is by no means likely in all cases, especially where the fuel is paid for by the employer.

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33 minutes ago, PeteB said:
There were a few reports in the press a while ago that leasing companies had cars returned at the end of their lease (typically 3 years for company cars) where the charging cable was still in a sealed wrapper.
The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV was mentioned a few times, as it sold like hot cakes and probably still will to some extent as I suspect the primary appeal to business drivers is the Benefit In Kind tax rate more than the purchase subsidy, although the subsidy may well have brought the car into a price range that allowed more company car drivers to choose one.
Whilst not conclusive, as some may have charged on a home unit that came wit ha cable and/or charging station that had a cable, my observation from my days of company car use is that many don't even dip the oil during their tenure, so plugging is by no means likely in all cases, especially where the fuel is paid for by the employer.

Yes I remember reading a similar report.


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Aye, it was a while ago I recall.

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 As regards not plugging cars in. Many people live without garages. Also, people with garages rarely use them and so plugging in isnt something which many be easily achieved unless one has wires trailing around. I have lived in various locations since the advent of the 1970s and since that time it has become more popular to use garages as a dumping ground for expensive refuse which the homeowners don't want to admit to wasting money on. During this time I have routinely kept my vehicle in a garage. Nevertheless, I don't have a special socket rated at 16 amp in my garage, I have a conventional 13 amp socket. To fit a special power socket , I would have to renew my distribution board to incorporate more circuit breakers which would allow an electrician to fit a dedicated socket with suitable circuit  protection. Aha! but it doesn't stop there! Since the electrician has effectively reconnected every single circuit in my house, it all needs to be certified and tested to the latest edition of the wiring regulations! In order to do this, the entire house needs to have its electrical circuits modified to enable them to pass the latest tests and checks. In short, the majority of peple dont open the can of worms and don't have their special electrical socket circuit added since if a house has a wiring system which only complies with the regulations which were prevailing at the time of installation, this is perfectly acceptable. In other words, the system shot itself in the foot when insisting that modifications must be to current regulations and to to the original specifications. 

All of the above is a very expensive and dicouraging argument unless one lives in a new build.

Before we introduce rules, regulations etc, I think that  we should pause to look at the bigger picture. I live in a house which has 14th edition electrical installation because of when it was built. In order for me to upgrade my electrical circuits in my garage to install a special "hybrid" charging socket, one has to ask. "What is more important?" trying to do my bit for saving the planet or fooling around wasting money on fiddling around with refitting the entire house wiring so that it complies with the current 18th edition wiring regulation. Our country seems to have fallen victim to insular thinking. The electricians insist we upgrade to the latest edition instead of simply complying with the original design spec of wiring and the "save the planet lobby" think that we should be installing special  charging sockets in as many places as possible. My own view is "stuff the regulations since, they wont matter a jot if we don't save the planet"

Withdrawing government sponsorship of hybrid fossil fuel/electric cars is perhaps overdue since we need to move beyond burning petrol and diesel. Maybe that money should go towards tidal powered electrical generation by throwing a dam across the Bristol channel. Free energy 4 times a day regardless of the weather. Then , 100% electrical transport makes a tremendous amount of sense and some form of sponsorship for 100% electric vehicles should prevail in order to encourage development of aerodynamics, fuel cells, superconductors, superior navigation and control systems etc.In this case the need to install electrical outlets increases and so the pressure on adopting a more integrated approach to modifying our power distribution infrastructure from power station to home, factory and office increases.

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Indeed Geof.

I was uncertain as to whether our electrical supply would cope, it's ancient though tested a few times in the last 20 years. Chargemaster fitted a charging point for me in the garage, the slowest possible. But I certainly take your point on people preferring to place their precious expensive cars outside, whilst filling their garages with (probably) way less valuable stuff!

One of the things that worries me about the plans (if there are any!) for road-side charge-points, is their attraction to vandals - It was hard to find a fully functioning, clean, un-urinated red telephone kiosk in the ancient past, these charge points will be more open and re-sale prices of materials will be interesting for those of a light-fingered nature....

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When I was sort of considering buying a Renault Zoe, part of the deal was installing the charging circuitry outside your home.  No doubt Renault would foot the bill for the rest of the house wiring checks.

Never bought one as the cost of Battery rental per month was more than we've ever paid in petrol for any car ever.

Mick.

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Household chargers offering max rate to a Prius PHV are totally unrealistic as they cost between £200 and £300 after the government grant, just to save 1 hour per charge.

I have a perfectly safe waterproof socket from my household supply by the hard standing drive at a cost of about £40. A lockable storage box for the cable when not in use.

The real incentive should be a full rebate (16p per Kw/Hr) on all electricity used by your Plug in - easily monitored by the car electronics and could be retrieved by the main dealer at service time. Then a credit against service charges. (Could be incorporated into VAT process).

This is similar to the support given to solar cells on houses. The gov't pays a feed in rate for every unit generated and the owner gets to use the electricity for free. (Granted it has been dramatically reduced, but it did incentivise many to have them fitted.)

Cheers

Tony B

 

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Instead of taking the grant away why don' they increase the BIK tax on company cars then.

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The grant has already gone.

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4 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

The grant has already gone.

I think Keith was only musing whether it would have been better to have removed much of the BIK advantage instead of the grant for PHEVs.

While I sort of agree, I can see it's problematic because the BIK bands are based on the emissions and a PHEV can appear to be a disproportionately good choice from the standard mpg/emissions tests.

Unfortunately, in the hands of people who both charge whenever possible and whose usual usage patterns suit the PHEV's capabilities well (which is likely to be private buyers and at least some company car users), taking away the subsidy seems counter productive.  There are still many for whom a pure EV won't/can't work, but a PHEV or Range Extended EV make perfect sense, who may now be priced out of buying one, and therefore buy something even less clean.

And it's not just CO2, but other emissions too, especially NOx, which the proliferation of diesels (itself driven by VED and BIK incentive from various governments) have helped to present an immediate crisis (and one that many governments, including our own [both parties], were warned about some 20 years ago by their own expert advisers.

(BTW it looks like BMW dropped their range extended version of the i3 EV since the subsidy ceased).

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Whilst I understand that PHVs can be operated without using the plug-in element, surely range extended EVs only have an on-board generator and are fundamentally still EVs. Why would anybody buy a range extended EV intending to run it on the onboard generator? 

Cheers

Tony B

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1 hour ago, toshtosh said:

...Why would anybody buy a range extended EV intending to run it on the onboard generator?

I wouldn't have thought anyone (in their right mind) would.

Taking the grant away from such cars seems incredibly stupid to me, because it's the one thing that might have got more people into an EV, who wouldn't take the risk of being caught short in a car that didn't have this escape route.

When I went on a test drive in a BMW i3 REx a few years ago, the salesman made the point it was a "get out of jail free card" (as he put it).  In any case, the 1.9 gal tank would give less range than a full Battery and would be a right pain on a longer journey if you had to fill up every 60-70 miles!

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