Coolant loss on 2008 Avensis TR D-4D 2ltr Diesel

[Avensis_d4d]

I'm losing coolant on my 2,0 2008 Avensis. (Top up every couple of weeks.)

Then I learned of the known issue on 2.2 from the thread below and the symptoms look identical:
"according to a Toyota Tec at my dealership he said "small white dots settling on the black plastic cover on top of the engine", this is the residue from the pink/red Toyota antifreeze and is the very first sign along with a small loss of coolant in the reservoir"

I have exactly that. White powdery splash marks on the black plastic cover. Whenever I take the reservoir cap off (always cold) there's a hiss of pressure which I don't regard as abnormal, but could be a sign of head gasket woes. No other head gasket symptoms. No foam in the oil.

On starting the engine I have always had a "running water" sound behind the dash. Significant?

Mines a 2.0 rather than a 2.2. 

I'm wondering if buying a new expansion tank cap would be a good starting point to working out what's going on. Is that a sensible first step?

What else should I be doing?
 

 

[Heidfirst]

Hi Mark, welcome to TOC 🙂

In the case of an Avensis the head/head gasket issue can potentially affect any AD series engine (1AD is 2.0l & 2AD is 2.2l) manufactured up until February 2009 although only a small % actually do develop it.

I would start with a sniff test & also check in case the water pump is weeping (common).  How many miles on the car?

[avetoy]

11 hours ago, Avensis_d4d said:

I'm wondering if buying a new expansion tank cap would be a good starting point to working out what's going on. Is that a sensible first step?

 

I would say save your money to head gasket swap. When D4D starts to loose coolant and splash it trough expansion tank cap, with 99% certainty it is the head gasket failure. If you opened the cap when hot you would see how much pressure there really is. But if you do that, be careful so you don´t burn your fingers!

You could also check if the expansion tank is darkened inside and like Mr Scott wrote above: do the sniff test.

 

[Avensis_d4d]

9 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

Hi Mark, welcome to TOC 🙂

In the case of an Avensis the head/head gasket issue can potentially affect any AD series engine (1AD is 2.0l & 2AD is 2.2l) manufactured up until February 2009 although only a small % actually do develop it.

I would start with a sniff test & also check in case the water pump is weeping (common).  How many miles on the car?

 

Thanks for replying.

130k miles on the clock. 

Is white powder marks on the plastic tray on the engine and 'running water noise' under the dash consistent with water pump. If so I guess it is because if air creeps in then it expands and pushes water out of the expansion tank cap/overflow hose?

Last night I ran it up to normal temperature with heater full on to see if I can get any air out of the heater matrix.

Will try and eyeball the water pump tonight.

[Avensis_d4d]

4 minutes ago, avetoy said:

I would say save your money to head gasket swap. When D4D starts to loose coolant and splash it trough expansion tank cap, with 99% certainty it is the head gasket failure.

Joy. I've read elsewhere that the head gasket is an engine out job. Is that true?

The car's in terrific nick but I'm not sure if it's really worth a new gasket unless it's a fairly low risk job and less than the price of a new car.

Sniff test means getting a garage involved, yes?

[avetoy]

I´m afraid it is engine out job. At least Avensis T27. Along here Toyota workshops drop the whole packet (engine & tranny) down to do the job.

I know some minor workshops have done it engine in place but there is great danger to fail. 

[Avensis_d4d]

2 minutes ago, avetoy said:

I´m afraid it is engine out job. At least Avensis T27. Along here Toyota workshops drop the whole packet (engine & tranny) down to do the job.

I know some minor workshops have done it engine in place but there is great danger to fail. 

So if it's the head gasket on a 10yo car it's a write off?

Let's hope the water pump is seeping! 

Sounds like I need to hand it to a Garage to do the sniff test and take it from there.

 

[avetoy]

My local Toyota workshop boss said: every D4D engine will have head gasket failure. Some run only 100000 km, some over 500000 km.

Mine ran 320000 km.

[Avensis_d4d]

52 minutes ago, avetoy said:

My local Toyota workshop boss said: every D4D engine will have head gasket failure. Some run only 100000 km, some over 500000 km.

Mine ran 320000 km.

 

So *if* it's the HG, and *if* I get it replaced and head skimmed is that a "proper" fix? Or is there other work required?

What's the root cause of the problem? 

Mine's a T250 BTW.

[paul9]

Root cause was a design flaw, as far as I gather. I don't think the rushing water sound is significant, I get that very often on a cold start of my 2.0 and have absolutely zero indications of head gasket failure. I was a bit worried the first few times I noticed it, though.

[avetoy]

Water pump is good to replace at the same time and glow plugs if necessary.

I think the root cause is engine geometry and emission control (= egr). When piston comes to TDC it is a little bit higher than cylinder block. Clearance between piston and cylinder head is made with the head gasket. When soot begins to accumulate to piston and head, the piston is hammering it towards the gasket and finally the gasket gives up. 

Good old days engines was not forced to breath exhaust gas, just air.

[Kennycab]

Hi,

I have been through this with my 2007 2.0 D4D.

The rushing water sound behind the dash is an indicator of head gasket failure, mine did that but after fixing it the noise has gone. The loss of coolant through the cap also indicates head gasket failure.

Mine failed 2 years ago at 114000 miles, I started trying to strip it down with engine in the car but the bolts are very inaccessible and the timing cover cannot be removed easiy as the sump and pickup need removing first. I ended up dropping the whole engine / gearbox lump out as per the Toyota manual, split the engine from the gearbox and got it on an engine stand to strip down.

I took the head to local engine reconditioners, they said the gasket material was starting to eat into the face of the head so skimmed 0.1mm off it, fitted new valve stems etc etc. and I reassembled with a new gasket that was 0.1mm thicker. It now has 200k on the clock and all is well.

I also went as far as doing crankshaft bearings and piston rings whilst it was apart but that was probably not needed. If it happened again then either I would just do the head or get a used engine.

There is a thread on here in my name with details and pictures if you search. Think it would cost about £1000 for a garage to do the work.

Good luck

Ken

[Kennycab]

The water pump on mine was also weeping. Get a good one, cheap ones don't last very long. I got an Aisin one off Amazon for £50 and when I opened the box it has Toyota written on it. Had a Blueprint one and some other make before, not recommended.

[paul9]

In that case, I had better keep a closer eye out for signs of my head gasket failing. I am about to change the oil and coolant today, too. I bought this as a disposable runabout, but put a few quid into it for new braking and tyres, and it seems okay apart from some high oil consumption. Ex taxi with almost 150k miles since 2007. If the hg goes, then probably another Citroen or Vauxhall. Toyota is okay, but not nearly enough comfort touches for me. I thought TR was a high-spec. 🤔

[OleAvensis]

Interesting. I have the same (or a very similar) problem with my 2007 Avensis (T25) with a 2.0 litre 1AD-FTV engine, and 217k km on the clock.

The car has been loosing coolant during the last couple of months. I've also seen some coolant residue on the engine cover from time to time. I believed this to be a small leak somewhere in the cooling system, and didn't worry too much about it.

Two days ago I stopped by the local Toyota dealership and the mechanic quickly concluded that this was a "known problem" and most likely a blown head casket, or something even more serious (cracked head and/or engine block). The bottom line: the fix is very expensive, and the car is basically ready for the junkyard..!

The car has no other signs of a blown head gasket. The oil looks fine (17k km since the last oil change), no white smoke, no obvious leaks.

I've had a lot of problems with sticky residue clogging up the EGR valve a regular intervals (5-10k km). Apparently a bad  "EGR cooler" can give many of the same symptoms as a blown head gasket (bubbles/pressure in the engine coolant). See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC52wdRcr-A

Maybe this is something worth checking out?

[Avensis_d4d]

29 minutes ago, Kennycab said:

Hi,

I have been through this with my 2007 2.0 D4D.

The rushing water sound behind the dash is an indicator of head gasket failure, mine did that but after fixing it the noise has gone. The loss of coolant through the cap also indicates head gasket failure.

Mine failed 2 years ago at 114000 miles, I started trying to strip it down with engine in the car but the bolts are very inaccessible and the timing cover cannot be removed easiy as the sump and pickup need removing first. I ended up dropping the whole engine / gearbox lump out as per the Toyota manual, split the engine from the gearbox and got it on an engine stand to strip down.

I took the head to local engine reconditioners, they said the gasket material was starting to eat into the face of the head so skimmed 0.1mm off it, fitted new valve stems etc etc. and I reassembled with a new gasket that was 0.1mm thicker. It now has 200k on the clock and all is well.

I also went as far as doing crankshaft bearings and piston rings whilst it was apart but that was probably not needed. If it happened again then either I would just do the head or get a used engine.

There is a thread on here in my name with details and pictures if you search. Think it would cost about £1000 for a garage to do the work.

Good luck

Ken

Many thanks for a comprehensive answer.

It will be a garage job, I don't fancy doing it myself.

Is the water pump a tricky job with engine in situ? In other words it really needs to be done at the same time as the gasket?

I think my plan would be to do the minimum (gasket and skim) but I don't want to miss anything else that would *really* be beneficial at the same time.

I haven't actually looked at the waterpump yet. (I'm still hoping it might be that.) Will I be able to see that without dismantling too much?

How much pressure should there be in the coolant system when cold? None?

Will the garage need to order a specific 'thicker' gasket?

Sounds like this is worth doing. A grand gets me a car I like back. Hopefully not too much risk.

[paul9]

Well, if your timing belt is due, at least ask the garage how much it would add to the bill to change it whilst they already have the engine out. You don't have to do it at the same time, but it could be a bit cheaper to have it done then.

[avetoy]

33 minutes ago, Avensis_d4d said:

Is the water pump a tricky job with engine in situ? In other words it really needs to be done at the same time as the gasket?

 

It is not impossible to replace the water pump engine in place but much, much more easier to do it engine out. Maybe ten times quicker...

 

33 minutes ago, Avensis_d4d said:

I haven't actually looked at the waterpump yet. (I'm still hoping it might be that.) Will I be able to see that without dismantling to much?

 

If the water pump leaks badly it is wet from below and you can see it with tiny mirror.

 

33 minutes ago, Avensis_d4d said:

How much pressure should there be in the coolant system when cold? None?

 

Not much. A little hiss can be heard... And not so much when hot either.

 

33 minutes ago, Avensis_d4d said:

Will the garage need to order a specific 'thicker' gasket?

Not necessarily but the old gasket has identification on it which shows how thick it is. The new one should be at least the same.

[Kennycab]

There are different gasket thicknesses, there is a part of the gasket that has notches or teeth which denote what thickness. I can't remember the details of each, but my car had 3 notches originally and I fitted the thickest which has 5 notches. The difference is 0.1mm so I was lucky as that's how much needed skimming off the head.

Buy Toyota parts, there is a head gasket set that costs about £70, contains everything needed except for the head gasket. Stuff like injector seats and seals, inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets, turbo gaskets, injector pipework seals etc. The head gasket is sold separate, my local dealer said they would advise fitting the thickest gasket even if it means the compression is reduced slightly, cost is about £40. I also fitted a new set of FAI head bolts. The original ones seemed ok to reuse when checked for length but I went for new anyway, Toyota bolts are very expensive but the FAI set I think was about £30.

The water pump will leave coolant deposits on the top of the oil filter housing, you can see from underneath or through wheel arch if you remove the plastic cover from under that side of the engine. I have changed the pump in situ and it takes a couple of hours, 5 minute job if engine is out as only 6 bolts and gasket but access is difficult in the car.

The engine is chain driven so no timing belt.

[Avensis_d4d]

1 hour ago, paul9 said:

timing belt

If it has a timing belt I'll be going on a rampage with a machette!

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I'll try everything suggested (including ERG) but it still looks a bit bleak. Very much appreciated.

[Avensis_d4d]

Just now, Kennycab said:

There are different gasket thicknesses, there is a part of the gasket that has notches or teeth which denote what thickness. I can't remember the details of each, but my car had 3 notches originally and I fitted the thickest which has 5 notches. The difference is 0.1mm so I was lucky as that's how much needed skimming off the head.

Buy Toyota parts, there is a head gasket set that costs about £70, contains everything needed except for the head gasket. Stuff like injector seats and seals, inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets, turbo gaskets, injector pipework seals etc. The head gasket is sold separate, my local dealer said they would advise fitting the thickest gasket even if it means the compression is reduced slightly, cost is about £40. I also fitted a new set of FAI head bolts. The original ones seemed ok to reuse when checked for length but I went for new anyway, Toyota bolts are very expensive but the FAI set I think was about £30.

The water pump will leave coolant deposits on the top of the oil filter housing, you can see from underneath or through wheel arch if you remove the plastic cover from under that side of the engine. I have changed the pump in situ and it takes a couple of hours, 5 minute job if engine is out as only 6 bolts and gasket but access is difficult in the car.

The engine is chain driven so no timing belt.

Thanks, KennyCab your posts have been superb on this topic. I owe you one. 

[Kennycab]

You're welcome.

[paul9]

16 minutes ago, Kennycab said:

The engine is chain driven so no timing belt.

I was going to state belt or chain, as I had seen both mentioned, but hadn't looked further into the subject to see which one it had. Either way, it should be a cheaper job if the engine is already out. If it is, and your chain is near the replacement interval, and you have some spare pennies then it makes sense, especially if you are doing the water pump too. A lot of 'ifs', lol.

[Kennycab]

6 minutes ago, paul9 said:

I was going to state belt or chain, as I had seen both mentioned, but hadn't looked further into the subject to see which one it had. Either way, it should be a cheaper job if the engine is already out. If it is, and your chain is near the replacement interval, and you have some spare pennies then it makes sense, especially if you are doing the water pump too. A lot of 'ifs', lol.

You are correct, do the chain while engine is out, not sure it is possible with engine in as front timing cover prevents it unless sump and oil pickup removed first which is really hard with engine in.

If you go on to the Toyota technical website you can pay 3 euros for an hours access and download all the manuals you need, they explain how to measure the chain and check for wear and determine if replacement needed. Mine was ok, 114k miles and almost no wear at all.

[Avensis_d4d]

Bit of an update. 

- Coolant is clearly coming out of the expansion tank overflow pipe I can see wet drips right under it.

- Pretty sure I *can* smell exhaust in the expansion tank. 

- There's unmistakable pressure in the expansion tank. It comes off with a champagne cork 'pop' even when cold.

I'm not sure there's really anything left to debate here, I either need a new car or to get the head gasket done. 

My instinct is to keep the car and have to work done by a garage. Too big a job for me to do myself. 

My concerns about that course of action are:

1) How do I know the car didn't have a new gasket earlier in its life, has the thickest gasket and can't be skimmed a second time? I'll be finding out after I've spent £££s.

2) Is removing and refitting the engine going to disturb something else and I'll end up with another problem to chase down.

3) I've called a trusted garage for a quote and they haven't got back. Is this a risky job that garages just won't want to take on?

A little voice in me says get a quote from a Toyota Garage. It's got a higher chance of ending up being done by someone who knows the D4D pitfalls.I image cost will be prohibitive though.

I'm willing to spend the price of another similar car to fix this one, but I want to be reasonably confident I'm going to come out of it with a working car.

I don't sense there's a desperate hurry. I do 50 miles a day. Temperature gauge is rock solid in its usual position. Things don't seem to be getting worse fast.

Thanks all.