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Stripy

Judder only when warmed up.

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Hi, I'm new to this forum and hoping for some ideas. 

I have an 11 plate auris hybrid. 128k on the clock. Until recently a perfect car! 

About 2 months ago my car developed an intermittent judder. I booked it in for a full service and asked for a new set of spark plugs. 

The judder continued. I went back to local garage, they plugged it in but no fault codes showing. They suggested dirty fuel as the cause and advised to rev the heck out of it. 

Judder still continued. I went back, still no fault codes. Tried some redX and told it will eventually sort itself out. 

I took it onto duel carriage way and full throttled it to 70mph, when I released the accelerator the pedal stayed stuck to the floor! A very scary few moments until I pulled it back up with my foot. Accelerator has never shown any problems of being stuck before and has thankfully never done this since (although obviously I'm reluctant to try full throttle again). Since then the judder has got worse. No juddering at all until the engine heats up and then constant bad judder when accelerating. Stops instantly when I release the accelerator pedal. 

Back to local garage who advised I now go to Toyota garage. 

Booked into Toyota, they updated Ecu power manager and updated software. Replaced charcoal filter and want me to rebook for further investigation. 

To be honest they seemed a bit clueless and spoke to me like I was daft. 

I told them about accelerator getting stuck and he said he'd never heard of such a thing. Asked me if it was stuck on the car mat. Yeah right! 

I explained the judder only happens after the car has warmed up and again he seemed baffled. 

I want to try another small garage (hopefully one that doesn't mind getting their hands dirty) but just wondering what things they should check? 

 

Thanks 🙂

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Does the car judder if you depress the clutch and rev it?

Accelerator getting stuck on a car mat happens, had few cases on the forum where non stock car mats were the cause..

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Accelerator pedals getting caught by the drivers mat does happen - I've been a passenger in a Mitsubishi when this happened. Can be caused by non standard mats or mats not being properly secured in the footwell.

Moved to the Auris club.

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It's a hybrid, so no clutch. 

Car mats are auris fitted ones. Pedal was stuck on full rev so would take some force to get stuck down, definitely a mechanical fault of some sort. 

I find it odd that the judder only happens on a warm engine. I can't seem to find anyone else having this problem. 

I should say the judder is definitely a misfire and is very noticeable. 

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Ppl

21 minutes ago, Stripy said:

Pedal was stuck on full rev so would take some force to get stuck down

Precisely what happened in the car I was travelling in.

Are the mats secured?

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Yes they are fitted auris mats. Clipped on securely. 

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Just as background info; the throttle pedal is entirely electric, so there are none of the throttle cables fitted to your car that were typical on other cars before, say, 2006.  The fact that the pedal was physically stuck down lends this to being a purely a mechanical problem (with just the pedal itself) rather than anything at all beyond it, as you probably already knew.

Because the pedal has just a simple electrical plug and 2 or 3 bolts holding it in, removing it to be very closely inspected for grit, stones etc. getting into the mechanism should be quite a quick job.  The pedal could be checked for stickiness 'on the bench', as there is no need for it to be back in the car to check that the pedal returns correctly.  I have not come across this this problem.

With regards the juddering, starting with the cheapest to fix, I would be thinking about possible ignition coil failing.  The Mk1 Auris hybrids have sometimes suffered rainwater leaks into the spark plug area underneath the ignition coils. But if that was the case, I would have expected your garage to have noted seeing rust or corrosion when the plugs were changed.  But an error code is usually logged with this fault.  . A new coil is the likely fix here.  But without a code there it is just guesswork as to which one, or if it is this problem at all.

Or, another possibility given the miles covered  - an EGR cooler blockage.  But this usually logs an error code of some description as well, and your mileage is really a little low for this.  The fix here is to strip and clean the EGR valve, cooler and inlet manifold as per this video:-

There are no parts needed for this, but it is a time consuming job.  

How is the fuel consumption?  Does the car burn much Oil?  Any strange noises when the car is juddering?  Do you know what plugs your (non - Toyota?) garage fitted, i.e. is it on your invoice?  Strange though it sounds, the cars run best on Denso brand plugs, but not to the extent of suffering a judder like yours. 

I have nothing against Redex injector cleaner, but as it is so cheap and easy to do, I would try a different brand of injector cleaner, perhaps say, Wynns or Forte, in the meantime.

The above problems are not specific to hybrid cars, this is just normal garage spanner work, the same as checking the coils and changing the plugs.

I'm sure someone will be along soon with some other suggestions........

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Thanks for your detailed response. Its very helpful and gives great suggestions on what to try next. 

My mpg has been around 10mpg less on average since problem started. I haven't noticed a difference in Oil consumption but I'll keep an eye out for it. 

No other strange noises other than the judder. 

Now here's to finding that mechanic who doesn't mind getting their hands dirty! 

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That's no problem.

This next suggestion is so obvious that it's easy to overlook - you could see if the throttle pedal is sticky with the engine off and the car parked up.  The only difference to the pedal with the car parked will be the temperature in the foot well.  At least if it goes wrong again in that situation you can consider the problem in safety.  If your confidence in the car is undermined by what happened previously, then there is always the option of getting a secondhand throttle pedal fitted.  The demand for them must be pretty minimal, so the price could be in your favour.

In the Toyota world the slipping-floor-mat situation was a serious problem for them, I think the mats may well get checked at every (main agent) service on account of that!

I was asking about the Oil consumption as if the engine is using a lot of Oil it can make the EGR problem happen a bit earlier.  If you were suffering the EGR blockage then you might also hear some metallic engine 'pinging', which would a phenomenon called 'pinking' or 'knocking' which is caused by pre-ignition.  The sound is not especially loud, so could be drowned out by the radio!  If this fault was suspected then a very quick 'toe in the water' would be to remove the EGR valve and see how bunged-up that looks.  This is done entirely from the top of the car and takes just a few minutes.

I'm not aware of any fuel filter that can or ought to be changed.  I think there is a filter that sits inside the petrol tank at the point where the petrol intake is, but it is not a service item at all.

In the longer term, Toyota offers a minor service on your car for £152  (this is a set price for any type of Auris).  And provided the car initially passes their diagnostics on the Hybrid-y bits, then they guarantee the Battery and inverter (so most of the high voltage hybrid expensive bits) for the next 12 months or 10,000 miles.  They offer this guarantee facility for hybrid cars up to 15 years old.  (This is of no relevance to your two existing problems though.)  But to get this price you have to sign up for their service club (free), otherwise it's £190.

HTH.

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Hi and welcome. As already been suggested the EGR cooler is very likely the main cause of the problems you have experience. If the car has never had egr cleaning is a thing that you need to do, however Toyota garages may not offer that kind of service, best is diy project but local trusted garage can also help. When cleaning the egr the throttle body also needs cleaning and PCV valve too which is located on the intake manifold, intake manifold itself need cleaning so it’s a kind of a big job but all it needs is a time and passion. 
To clarify all the things you need to check, clean and replace at that mileage:

1. Throttle body and MAP/MAF sensor cleaning 

2. EGR Cooler - cleaning 

3. Intake Manifold and PCV valve cleaning , PCV can be changed for peace of mind cost around £30

4. Engine Coolant if haven’t been changed at 100k ! Drain and refill only with genuine Toyota pink coolant ready mixed. 
 

Dirty throttle body can make throttle plate sticking and cause similar issues that you have experienced with stuck gas pedal, don’t ignore cleaning it, only step you can skip above is removing and cleaning the intake manifold, but it’s a good idea to be done all together. 

Regards 

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Update. 

The car has spent the last two days at the garage. And unfortunately the problem is the CVT and it needs replaced. Given the cost of this and the age of the car it doesn't really seem worth it. 

It seems the 'gear box Oil' level was too low. 

I'm so mad at the original garage I used as this should have been done with a major service. It's the first thing I booked it in for when the car had its first wee judder. Fobbed off time and time again getting told dirty fuel and to rev the crap out of it. 

Gutted. 

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13 hours ago, Stripy said:

And unfortunately the problem is the CVT and it needs replaced

Before you condemn the car it might just be worth getting a second opinion on that diagnosis from another garage.

On a Toyota hybrid the transmission really isn't a CVT in the normal sense.  It behaves like a CVT would, but the internals could hardly be more different.  No belt, no pulleys, no special Oil.  The transmission is the same as fitted to a Prius gen3, the taxi driver's favourite!, and they are reckoned to generally last ~ 250,000++ miles.  Basically the mechanical part of the transmission is the most reliable part of this car.  Plenty of owners can elaborate on this!  When they do start to get old (much, much older than yours!) then the usual high-mileage transmission gear whine is as close as they get to failing.  If you car had been running without enough Oil in the box then I would have expected this as one of the symptoms.

The electronic control for the transmission can fail, but this would normally throw an error message on the dash, and would render the car almost unuseable, from what I understand.

There is no Oil change interval at all for the transmission in normal use, and no reason for the Oil level to go down unless it is leaking.  I have done an Oil change on 2 Auris hybrid boxes (just to see if the Oil had degraded at all), and very carefully measured the Oil volume that drained out.  Toyota list the box as having a ~ 3.3 litre capacity, but on both cars, the first drain from new (by me!) showed 2.95 litres.  I think if you dig into the Toyota spec. for this it says the capacity is 3.3 litres, plus or minus 10%.  So it would possibly appear low if checked (by removing a level/filler plug underneath the car - there is no dipstick), when actually 'normal', and the same level as it came with when new.

How does the garage know it was under-filled, I wonder? 

By the way, Some Toyota garages have been known to almost refuse to do an gearbox Oil change on these when it is requested by the keen owner, "because it doesn't need it!" they say.

You obviously have a problem on the car, but the gearbox diagnosis is blaming an incredibly reliable part.  This might sound harsh, but, I would speculate that that is a judgement from someone who doesn't really have a thorough Toyota hybrid experience, but I'm happy to be corrected on this, of course, I'm commenting on this long-distance after all! 

The diagnosis you have been given would fit much better with a car using a regular CVT - the reliability of the hybrid box (properly called an eCVT by Toyota) is in a completely different league.

But then - 'There is always a first for everything'.  'Never say never', etc. etc. etc.

And I definitely wouldn't blame yourself.

Excuse the long post.  I should point out that I'm just an Auris owner, I only get to check out my own cars! 

Oh, and thanks for the update!

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Absolutely, very well explained. If the gearbox is damaged at the end which I don’t believe, you can buy and fit second hand one of eBay or scrap yard they cost anywhere between £300-£1000 and are not that difficult to be fit by a garage. 
Please seek another garage opinion. 

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Sorry for the delayed reply. 

Thank you so much for the extra info. Garage quoted £3000 to fix, which is obviously why I was thinking it wasnt worth it. Although they very much admit they aren't specialists and can't do the required repair. 

I've found a specialist garage not too far away and I'll be giving them a call tomorrow. 

Been on a downer all week at the thought of scrapping the car but now have a wee glimmer of hope. 

Thanks 🙂

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