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Mr Aitch

First Hybrid and Disappointed.

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23 minutes ago, Sampleman said:

I got my 2016 Yaris Hybrid in late October 2019 and have driven it some 3,000 miles since. I also was a little bit disappointed when I did some calculations after the first tank stops.

The previous owner used the car for commuting to work, the dealer said this guy drove the car exactly the same route every day. When I got it, the trip computer was not reset to zero, so obviously his average mileage was 5.1 liter per 100 km (55.4 mpg UK), calculated over thousands of miles. After my first tank refill I calculated my mileage at 5.7 liter per 100 km (49.6 mpg) which I found quite disappointing. My next tank refill gave me 5.2 liter (54.3 mpg). One one hand, this is a whooping 35 percent less than my previous car, a Citroen C3 Pluriel with SensoDrive gearbox and 1.6 liter 109 hp engine. On the other hand, this is about 50 percent more than the rating for the old NEDC test cycle.

German automobile club ADAC has tested the car and has reported a combined mileage of 4.8 liter per 100 km (58.85 mpg), and I think that this is a reasonable figure for everyday use and for a driving style which cares for the environment without requiring unreasonable stunts (see: hypermiling, pulse and glide).

Right now, I am monitoring the mileage of my car quite closely, and I got results ranging from 4.6 liter (61.4 mpg) up to 7.8 liter (36.2 mpg). The first, low fuel consumption was the result of approx. 25 miles in calm city traffic in Hamburg. The second, high consumption was rather high speed Autobahn chasing with speeds up to 105 mph and the cruise control set to values between 85 and 95 mph.

From what I have found out myself and from what others tell me, there seem to be several factors which increase the fuel consumption:

1. cold starts in cold weather: When the car is cold, the engine will run on a high idle speed even if the car does not move. This is for warming up the catalytic converter and the engine coolant. When I got my best mileage figure, I had been on the Autobahn before, the engine was warm. Then I stopped at a petrol station, refilled my tank and reset the trip computer. Then the car went through heavy city traffic, but without having to heat up the engine. People who make a sport out of saving fuel, have another trick: When the engine is cold, they switch off the heating system entirely during the warm up period and rely on the heated seats instead;-)

2. Speeding: The recommended top speed on the German Autobahn is 130 kph (81 mph). I think this is pretty fast for a Yaris Hybrid driver on a fuel saving mission. If you are patient enough to stick with 110 kph (68 mph), your fuel consumption probably will drop by 25 percent. It seems to me that at high speeds the Yaris Hybrid is not more fuel efficient than other petrol powered cars of the same size. A Turbodiesel car may even do better.

3. Using cruise control: People who want to reduce their fuel consumption in a hybrid car should try to make use of the momentum of the car. It seems to save fuel when you accelerate the car firmly until the desired cruising speed, then let it coast a while, then accelerate again... Let the car roll when the road goes downhill and accelerate when it goes up again. And many Toyota Hybrid drivers say that the cruise control is not smart enough to do this. You can hear that. When you drive with cruise control, even slightly ascending roads immediately drive up the engine revs. This costs fuel.

4. Driving in wet conditions with winter tires. I expect a lower fuel consumption in the summer time.

Right now, my personal fuel consumption is slightly higher than initially expected. But I think that it is unfair to judge a Hybrid car only on its fuel consumption. You may not forget that the Yaris features such nice goodies as a seamless transmission, an electric mode for silent operation and a bulletproof drivetrain without clutch, torque converter, alternator or starter.

The last weeks I travelled Germany from south to north and back. I drove hours using the cruise control, and maybe I was turning the heating too high, because I like it warm. Maybe this cost me fuel worth 10 Euros. Okay, so be it;-)


Best regards from Bavaria
Frank

Frank

have had my 2015 yaris hybrid for just over 2 months and done about 4000 miles . i am doing mid 55s to the gallon which is about the same as the HyundaI turbo diesel I used the drive. The yaris is so much nicer to drive and I love the auto . As for your section 2 I wear a coat in the mornings and turn the heating off as soon as the windows are clear this does keep the engine off a lot longer ...

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Also you should consider you're carting around a damn great heavy Battery. Would you think putting a few kilos of mass in your boot would improve economy?

 

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13 hours ago, bathtub tom said:

Also you should consider you're carting around a damn great heavy battery. Would you think putting a few kilos of mass in your boot would improve economy?

What is the weight difference between your car and a Yaris Hybrid?

Also, how do the power of the drivetrains compare?

Mick.

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You are getting manual mpg in an auto, as well hybrid works better in city driving where the speed is slow and use Battery. Also it's in winter now mpg will suffer, seriously once u are accustomed to driving a hybrid it will result in better mpg. 

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16 hours ago, Sampleman said:

It seems to me that at high speeds the Yaris Hybrid is not more fuel efficient than other petrol powered cars of the same size. A Turbodiesel car may even do better.

I agree with your suggestions.  Whilst it doesn't change that situation, it's worth remembering that the diesel does have the benefit of 5% higher calorific value of its fuel over the same volume of petrol, and the turbo is putting waste exhaust energy to good use, which these hybrids obviously can't benefit from.  I think that a modern turbodiesel would be running at 40% efficiency routinely, it is not the achievement that 40% efficiency is on these hybrid engines.  But that's not meant as an excuse.  The Yaris obviously should be judged as it stands!

Perhaps at higher speeds the Yaris' Atkinson-type engine efficiencies are lost, as that system might be 'turned off' when the engine is operating at closer to full output?  I don't remember reading this is what actually happens, but I can understand it if this is how the ECU is programmed.

I do remember one road test of the Yaris HSD stated the top speed as 99 mph.  How was your Yaris' performance at higher speeds?

Best regards from Bedfordshire.

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I have new RAV4 excel awd summer mpg 58 mpg around town 54 mpg motorways cruise control . Winter around town 47 mpg motorway 45mpg at 70 mph cruise control. I always use economy mode . battery’s don’t like the cold 

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8 hours ago, Gerg said:

I do remember one road test of the Yaris HSD stated the top speed as 99 mph.  How was your Yaris' performance at higher speeds?

According to my owners manual my Yaris Hybrid is electronically speed limited to 165 kph (103.5 mph). Although I do not care exactly how fast my car actually runs, I haven't noticed a hard cutoff when I once pushed the car hard. I once had a speedometer reading of almost 180 kph (112 mph). All in all I think my car may run 105 mph in good weather and traffic conditions. But you have to take into consideration that this is pretty fast, even on an Autobahn without speed limit. So I cannot tell you how much fuel it will burn if you drive constantly with full throttle.

I think that even with a heavy foot you cannot burn more fuel than 31 mpg on average without breaking your neck.


Best regards from Bavaria
Frank

 

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1085 Kg for a manual 1.5 excel vs 1160Kg for the hybrid excel - so basically an average teenager in the back seat

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5 minutes ago, flash22 said:

1085 Kg for a manual 1.5 excel vs 1160Kg for the hybrid excel - so basically an average teenager in the back seat

That's what I was inferring.

Having a (heavy?) Battery under the back seat isn't worth considering.

Mick.

IMG_0201.JPG

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The additional weight isn't just the Battery, There's the comparative weight difference between an epicyclic gearbox and a manual (I don't know which is heavier), the motor/regenerator and associated electronics (converter/inverter etc).

I'm not convinced hybrid is the way ahead - yet.

If we were on the Titanic, I'd head for the bar, others would go to the lifeboats.

 

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14 hours ago, bathtub tom said:

I'm not convinced hybrid is the way ahead - yet.

I compared the official Toyota weight figures of the 1.5 liter Yaris Hybrid and the 1.5 liter petrol car with automatic transmission, and I found out that the Hybrid is slightly lighter. Obviously Toyota does a lot to keep the Hybrid light. For example they left away the spare wheel and replaced it with an electric compressor and a can with liquid rubber. As you are not supposed to change a wheel, they also left away the jack lifter.

I think that you do not recognize the concept of the Hybrid if you narrow it down to average fuel consumption. The Yaris Hybrid has a seamless transmission which works smooth as a CVT, but is - unlike a CVT - bulletproof. It can switch on and off the engine without annoying you. It cannot break down with a broken starter or clutch, because it hasn't them. It can drive the car fully electric every now and them, and it gives you a mileage of almost 60 mpg in heavy city traffic.

In my eyes this is brilliant. A Toyota Yaris without hybrid drivetrain is just another compact car made in France.


Best regards from Bavaria
Frank

 

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Another advantage of hybrid, whenever the car is using Battery only the ICE is not being used........ so no wear and tear on all those parts that are not moving which normally would.               
 It’s a pity that fact is not recognised when determining servicing intervals. Assuming a 10,000 mile/12 months is the “norm”, could it be stretched to 15k miles, thus over a 120,000 mile period the number of services would be 8 instead of 12. That would be a significant cost saving.

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7 hours ago, Catlover said:

Another advantage of hybrid, whenever the car is using battery only the ICE is not being used........ so no wear and tear on all those parts that are not moving which normally would.    

However, an engine does not benefit from starting and stopping. Running continuously offers less wear than intermitently. The starting causes more wear. ie. no Oil briefly at start up.

That's one reason I don't favour those silly stop/start systems!

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57 minutes ago, mrpj said:

However, an engine does not benefit from starting and stopping. Running continuously offers less wear than intermitently. The starting causes more wear. ie. no oil briefly at start up.

That's one reason I don't favour those silly stop/start systems!

You don't know enough about the hybrid.

The hybrid engine has no belts to snap, the water pump is electric (so heating works with engine off), the air conditioning pump is electric (so cooling works with engine off), the alternator is part of the CVT, the power steering is electric and the brake boost is via an electric pump - thus reliability is very high.

The hybrid stop start system is the best in the world and it treats the engine especially well - the starter motor (also acts as the alternator/generator within the CVT, so a big weight saving) spins the petrol motor to around 1000 rpm and then gently adds fuel and spark so that:

  1.  oil pressure is up before engine 'starts',
  2.  no horrible starter motor whine,
  3.  no vibration starting,
  4.  quiet starting.

All other stop/start systems are an embarrassment.

In summary, the Yaris hybrid is the best and nippiest small city car in the world, EVs excepted - check out the 0-30 mph time of just 4 seconds.

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14 hours ago, Sampleman said:

Toyota does a lot to keep the Hybrid light. For example they left away the spare wheel and replaced it with an electric compressor and a can with liquid rubber. As you are not supposed to change a wheel, they also left away the jack lifter.

The spare is standard on the Excel, the handle and tool kit live in the boot the jack is under the passenger seat (rhd) imho the gunk in a can is useless  for anything bigger than a nail/screw

where the hybrid excels is in town and below 40mph its cut my fuel bill in half over a 1.4 turbo automatic and zero road tax*, its also emissions exempt

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2 hours ago, mrpj said:
However, an engine does not benefit from starting and stopping. Running continuously offers less wear than intermitently. The starting causes more wear. ie. no oil briefly at start up.

Rest assured that Toyota has taken precautions in order to avoid excessive wear and tear due to the frequent stopping and starting of the engine. In fact, the HSD drivetrain has proven to be very, very durable - there are countless Toyota Hybrids with more than 200,000 miles and still running flawlessly.

Apart from that, the 1.5 liter engine engine of this car seems to be made for durability: It has a timing chain, no belt, and it only revs up to 4,800 rpm. And it requires very thin Oil (SAE 0W20), this may also reduce wear.

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3 hours ago, mrpj said:

However, an engine does not benefit from starting and stopping. Running continuously offers less wear than intermitently. The starting causes more wear. ie. no oil briefly at start up.

That's one reason I don't favour those silly stop/start systems!

One of the hardest things a petrol engine in a car has to do is start from rest, especially on a cold engine.      In an Toyota hybrid car most of the time the petrol engine kicks in when the vehicle is already moving and most of the time when the engine is warm, in fact some times the engine kicks in because the computer says the engine needs more heat.  Moving a car weighing say 1.5 tons from rest takes a lot of effort, and if engine is cold thats when wear can take place, even if the hybrid Battery takes a car from stationary to 8mph before the engine kicks, thats is better for the engine then moving from rest.               

 

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5 hours ago, flash22 said:

The spare is standard on the Excel, the handle and tool kit live in the boot the jack is under the passenger seat (rhd) imho the gunk in a can is useless  for anything bigger than a nail/screw

where the hybrid excels is in town and below 40mph its cut my fuel bill in half over a 1.4 turbo automatic and zero road tax*, its also emissions exempt

Unfortunately after 1st April 2017 all new hybrids are no longer zero road tax!

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Unfortunately after 1st April 2017 all new hybrids are no longer zero road tax!


In Germany the most important thing for the road tax is CO2 emission. My 2005 Citroen C3 with 1.6 liter engine cost me 80 Euro per year, my 2016 Yaris Hybrid costs only 30 Euro. Pure electric cars and plugin hybrids are excepted from road tax.


Best Regards from Bavaria

Sampleman

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as of now im averaging just over 51mpg on a  5 mile run from cold,uphill for first 1.5 mile so engine running,then uaually switches te electric  in 30mph limits,onlyhad it 3 month and loving it

 

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