Hybrid shuddering stop

[Rav Rob]

That is horrendous! imagine if it did it on the motorway! ~shudder~

I agree I would want rid of the car, I don't think I would be able to trust it again unless they can be utterly sure what the fault is, and not just what they think it is or might be.

[MagicBoy]

From the manual for my Auris. I can't see why the RAV won't be recording the events in the same way. If they can't confirm one way or the other what the cause is tomorrow I'd be looking at rejecting the car.

[scar]

I hope my wife has a Harty appetite for a Huge helping of humble pie.

Apart from being a little embarrassed I think its in everybody's interest that this matter is resolved.

So what caused the stops x 2. My wife did. Not being used to autos she forgot the "tuck left leg behind the right " yes double foot job🤬 .

The garage had the car in and down loaded all available data and sent it to Toyota UK. They were really quick, I was told anything connected with braking was top priority. They were right. Toyota UK sent back to the garage pages of data and an assessment of the cause. Coming from a Technical background I asked to see the data recovered because I would hopefully understand it.

Comprehensive data is stored all the time, seat position, tyre pressures, windscreen wipers thats the type of thing I expected. The interesting sheets showed throttle position, brake position, steering wheel angle, all the critical data.

There was 2 plots showing the stops on the video, the plots showed brake pedal being depressed in milliseconds before the stops. If it was an emergency stop due to the radar there would have been no brake pedal movement but it would show the brakes being applied. It was clearly a drivers input.

The dealership were great, the workshop controller was in charge of the investigation together with the service manager. They spent about 20 minutes going through all the data with me and explaining things I wasn't sure about.

In conclusion I can say top marks to the dealership and Toyota UK for identifying the issue ( my wife )

After the meeting I went home and had a conversation with Maureen along the lines " We will have to modify our driving style......." big empathise on WE.

I think that because Maureen has a manual gearbox car is unhelpful. So wanting to put that right I drove the new Yaris hybrid. Very impressed with it. So was she. We have ordered a Yaris and have been given a delivery slot of 15th September.

The car was fine, the operator needs more training.

Your all welcome  to have a good laugh and post humorous replies if you wish. Beware Maureen might read the replies.

The garage did give me all the data and graphs that Toyota produced, interesting stuff.

[Catlover]

I am impressed they got the answer so quick and using data from the car.

[Peterd23]

Thanks for the update and your honesty, must admit I didn't expect that although the left foot being accustomed to pressing the clutch to the floor can produce severe braking if used on the brake.

Pleased for you both that it is nothing worse and interesting to hear how much data is actually stored and it is a sort of flight recorder as some of us expected.

The alternative to changing your wife's car is to advise her to keep her left foot in the glovebox but I realise that this is less than practical !!

[scar]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

I am impressed they got the answer so quick and using data from the car.

In depth check, not just data they were after. Car up on the ramps each wheel checked looking for flat spots and general tyre condition. Plus other stuff I don't know about.

The dealership liaised with a dedicated expert at Toyota to ensure continuity of the investigation. Cannot fault Toyota UK taking this as a serious issue.

[duncerduncs]

That modification was put into Toyota's following the unintended acceleration incidents.

If the car detects a brake demand whilst also detecting an accelerator demand it will apply a full brake to stop the car.

Toyota are taking this one step further by introducing accidental acceleration protection using a 'special key'.

[Auris James]

Glad it got resolved.

11 years ago I bought my first Automatic a 1989 Volvo 240.

I did the sudden stop once I got to the ferry terminal at Portsmouth driving to the check in booth! So easy to do after driving a manual for years. Just forget the left leg!

Another funny thing I did is I went to the shops and on returning, and it wouldn't start! Thinking fuel pump relay. Looked under the bonnet, nothing loose. Then dawned on me. Not left it in Park. Of course as usual fired straight into life!

James

[Rav Rob]

Well I think most of us are just relieved we don't have cars with a potentially terrible fault so thank you for the follow up.

I have been driving autos (hybrids) for 5 years now over 150,000 miles so I have the opposite problem, when I jump into a manual my driving is pretty ropey for a while, you suddenly realise how 'busy' you get just coming to a stop and pulling away in an old style car. We are also looking to replace my wife's car with if not a hybrid, certainly an auto. 

[scar]

2 hours ago, duncerduncs said:

That modification was put into Toyota's following the unintended acceleration incidents.

If the car detects a brake demand whilst also detecting an accelerator demand it will apply a full brake to stop the car.

Toyota are taking this one step further by introducing accidental acceleration protection using a 'special key'.

Yes that was one of the points the workshop controller covered in our meeting. The data collection is very comprehensive and needs to be. I will have a look at the info I was supplied with and will post them up if there is something I think the Forum would appreciate.

It won't just apply to a RAV, I think any of the latest generation vehicles will have the same type of data acquisition system.  Seeing most cars have microphones installed there may even be the capacity to record what goes on in the cabin.

That would indeed be a controversial use of data and be illegal in some countries.  

I have worked with SCADA control systems so I'm not a numpty when it comes to data. Glad the staff treated me to some of the finer points in the automotive data world.

 

[PeteB]

13 hours ago, Peterd23 said:

...must admit I didn't expect that although the left foot being accustomed to pressing the clutch to the floor can produce severe braking if used on the brake...

It's a common issue with people not used to autos.  I bought my first at 18 years old (having previously thought I wouldn't like them), and have done some 80-90% of my 800-900,000 miles of driving in autos (including some 330,000 in Hybrids) since.  After a while, it became quite second nature to switch between the two, but it took a while.  My first auto had a floor mounted dip switch near where a clutch pedal would have been, and to start with as I came to a stop at night I occasionally blinded people coming the other way!

The salesman I dealt with when I bought my first Hybrid in 2002 told me he'd recently taken someone for a test drive in an auto, and the customer told him she was familiar with autos.  Unfortunately, she stamped on the brake pedal with her left foot when coming to a stop from speed and the car behind stuffed into the back of them!

Lucky that these modern cars collect so much data.  I doubt it they'd have been able to discover much from a 2002 era car.

[Sooty]

Very glad to hear that the "issue" has been resolved.

[Buff69]

Yes thanks for letting us know. It’s good to know there’s not a fault with the RAV4 as we were worried about it suddenly braking on the motorway and the A11 which we drive on every day so cheers to you 👍

[MagicBoy]

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear Toyota took it seriously and that the data solved the mystery. No humble pie required, I'm pleased that there's no "ghost in the machine".

[scar]

Here is a page of the package I was given. Nice and easy to see whats happening, the term brake oil pressure confused me, think of it as the brake fluid.

For some reason its not as large as I hoped for easy viewing. If you click on it it may open up to full screen. If it doesn't blame my operating system, I did it on a MacBook.

Edited August 19, 2020 by scar
Disappointed with image quality

[FROSTYBALLS]

Click on the image and it will enlarge.

[BigR1ch]

On 8/18/2020 at 2:42 PM, scar said:

I hope my wife has a Harty appetite for a Huge helping of humble pie.

I can imagine that conversation and how delicate you had to be to explain it was human error.

Hats off to you on that conversation 😉

[ZimmerPhrame]

all the lights lighting up on dash suggests an electrical fault of somesort... something causes everything to trip, including the brakes(via the sensor giving false readings..) other than that... an intermitant short on the sensors which controls the emergency stop.. i don't know if you can- but if there is a way to pull individual fuses to turn certain functions off, may help narrow down the problem. I had to do this a few years ago with a zafira which had a heavy phantom drain..

 

 

Ahhhhh that'll teach me to post before reading the whole thread...lol

[duncerduncs]

Out of curiosity, I decided to press the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal at a decent speed (around 50mph).  It was 5am and I was on a long straight road.

The car came to a stand with a picture of both pedals being pressed and a message "accelerator and brake pedals are being pressed at the same time" (or something like that!).

For obvious reasons, I was unable to get a photo of the screen.