12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Hibird]

15 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

Its a fair comment and when i get my hybrid i will not worry about the 12v battery until its a few  years old as i know having read this thread i will be driving it often enough for it not to become an issue.

This thread is a great read for anyone who is unlikely to drive more than once a week as it warns those people they may have problems.

My view which is not popular with some here is if you are going to drive so infrequently the battery issue may rear its head is don't buy a hybrid you are paying a lot of money for technology that is not going to benefit you and in fact is more likely going to do the opposite. 

 

 

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent Battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Hibird said:

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

In today's money my Yaris Cross is twice as expensive as my first car, a Ford Anglia. I suggest the Yaris is far more than twice the value. 

Too many differences but here are just two.  The Yaris achieves double the mpg with an engine developing almost 3 times the power, 114bhp cf 39.

[Hibird]

5 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

In today's money my Yaris Cross is twice as expensive as my first car, a Ford Anglia. I suggest the Yaris is far more than twice the value. 

Too many differences but here are just two.  The Yaris achieves double the mpg with an engine developing almost 3 times the power, 114bhp cf 39.

I think that Ford Anglia was launched in 1959 way before my car ownership days. The same Year as 'Torchy' who was recently mentioned here was launched on us in his cardboard rocket.😉

Both cars and rockets have moved on by a quantum leap since then thank goodness.

 

 

 

[anchorman]

19 hours ago, Dala said:

I don't agree either.
I want to rely on my car whenever I need it.
Especially if it's a new car.
Getting into the car with the thought: will it start or not?
No.
This topic is excellent in that, as a driver, I can find out where the error is and how to eliminate this error.

He didn’t say he doesn’t agree, he said he doesn’t disagree.   There’s no need to be offended, I’m not rubbishing the thread as I clearly said, I’m just saying that I don’t and I don’t want to start worrying about the Battery.  When that day comes it’ll be gone.   We know the score for vulnerable cases and a cheap jump pack takes all the worry away.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

cheap jump pack takes all the worry away.

And that is the difference between not worrying and not worrying because you are prepared. 

[Roy124]

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good Battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat Battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

[Hibird]

46 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

Wet lead acid/AGM batteries have a self discharge rate of around 2%-8% per month (depending on your info source) regardless of connection to anything and should be linear after the initial surface charge has dissapated around 6hours. You probably new that but if not something to factor into any long term testing you may have planned.

Good numbers Roy well done, with some sensible conclusions so far.

[Graham47]

@Roy124it would be useful to measure if any of the ancillaries (EPB, folding mirrors etc.) significantly affect the measured voltage drop.

[anchorman]

9 minutes ago, Graham47 said:

@Roy124it would be useful to measure if any of the ancillaries (EPB, folding mirrors etc.) significantly affect the measured voltage drop.

I would have thought, things that are snoozing like radio, alarm etc have parasitic drain.  I think mirrors and EPB would be off altogether.  

[Dala]

55 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

you have a better car Battery 🙂

 

[Tommy X]

Hello, I am awaiting delivery of a Yaris Cross Design and have followed this topic with interest, I would like to know if there is any reason why the jump start connection terminal in the fusebox cannot or should not be used for trickle charging the 12v Battery, some say it can be used others say it can't. I have a smart charger and it would be easier to use the jump start terminal rather than direct to the Battery located under the rear seat. Thanks  

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I would have thought, things that are snoozing like radio, alarm etc have parasitic drain.  I think mirrors and EPB would be off altogether.  

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Graham47 said:

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

Non of these needs constant 12v Battery power, only when they operate. However if set in auto mode both they will keep draining your 12v Battery along with brake pump anytime you lock , unlock or open the drivers door respectively. 

[Dala]

1 hour ago, Graham47 said:

...How much does the alarm drain ?...

I have a Pandora Smart Pro security system installed. Consumption less than 7mA

[Roy124]

3 hours ago, Tommy X said:

Hello, I am awaiting delivery of a Yaris Cross Design and have followed this topic with interest, I would like to know if there is any reason why the jump start connection terminal in the fusebox cannot or should not be used for trickle charging the 12v battery, some say it can be used others say it can't. I have a smart charger and it would be easier to use the jump start terminal rather than direct to the battery located under the rear seat. Thanks  

Yes it can.  If you can't get at your Battery it is the easiest to access. Just a shame Toyota don't have that positive terminal as a separate shielded connection point. 

[Roy124]

During my car parked period the alarm was on, mirrors unfolded, doors unlocked, EPB on, and keys not isolated from the car.

[Dala]

It looks like an unlocked car draws less current 

I always lock the car - I can't help myself with this 😄

the alarm is activated only after the car is locked - the alarm therefore does not draw current when the car is unlocked

try to lock the car for the same amount of time
then compare drain

[Tommy X]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

Yes it can.  If you can't get at your battery it is the easiest to access. Just a shame Toyota don't have that positive terminal as a separate shielded connection point. 

Thanks Roy, I noticed a Y Cross in the showroom what looked like a charging lead running under the bonnet so I assume it was connected to the jumpstart terminal, I shall ask when I take delivery

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Graham47 said:

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

Just to confirm, the powered folding mirrors and electronic parking brake both use zero power except when activated.

They're basically electric motors that move the mirror or screw/unscrew the rear brake caliper between open or closed positions. Once they reach those positions, they stop drawing power.

As an aside, this is why it's safer to use the EPB when stopped for an extended period - If the car suddenly looses power, the brakes will stay engaged. If using the hydraulic brake hold on the other hand, they will release if power is lost!!

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Dala said:

It looks like an unlocked car draws less current 

I always lock the car - I can't help myself with this 😄

the alarm is activated only after the car is locked - the alarm therefore does not draw current when the car is unlocked

try to lock the car for the same amount of time
then compare drain

An excellent point and very valid for the airport parking issue.  I don't routinely lock mine as it resides in a locked garage. 

Next time we have a planned quiet period I shall lock it and compare. 

[Roy124]

9 minutes ago, Cyker said:

As an aside, this is why it's safer to use the EPB when stopped for an extended period - If the car suddenly looses power, the brakes will stay engaged. If using the hydraulic brake hold on the other hand, they will release if power is lost!!

A good point except that Brake Hold drops out after 3 minutes and EPB takes over. 

[Cyker]

Aye, although it will warn you first and you can poke the brake pedal for another 3 minutes!

Usually if I'm stationary that long tho' I'll put it into Park (+AutoEPB) just to spare the retinas of the person behind me  

 

[anchorman]

3 hours ago, Tommy X said:

Thanks Roy, I noticed a Y Cross in the showroom what looked like a charging lead running under the bonnet so I assume it was connected to the jumpstart terminal, I shall ask when I take delivery

It does Bill. It’s very easy to use the fuse box start connection.   You can even close the bonnet.

[Max_Headroom]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:24 AM, Hibird said:

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

This is a small forum so  i wouldn't say reported problems are very low when you consider how many members who don't drive often are having problems,  people are using solar panels and smart chargers for peace of mind and to get round the problem its only the ones that drive frequently that are reporting no problems.

Toyota  should have used a bigger Battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly.

You say you don't give buying advice  but you actually do you are telling members to ignore "infrequent user scare tactics" i don't think anyone here is using  "scare tactics" to put people off buying we are trying to let members who don't drive often know there is a problem so they can look into it themselves and see if a hybrid will suit their needs, i am not sure why you think that isn't a good thing.

 

[RickyC]

8 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Toyota  should have used a bigger battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly  i am not sure why you keep defending Toyota you are beginning to sound like a total fanboy.

I think that the real issue is not the Battery capacity but the time needed to charge it. If you're using the car once a week, driving for 30 minutes or less, you probabiy will no able to recover the charge lost during the other days when car stood parked.  So with a bigger capacity Battery I expect that you will simply experience the problem some week later.  A bigger capacity Battery can be instead useful, if you are a frequent driver,  when you need to leave the car parked for some week in an airport parking.