12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[anchorman]

3 hours ago, CruxisCore said:

My Toyota dealer offers a 230v engine block heater that can also be split to charge the 12v battery (and an indoor heater too if you want to spend more). I'm tempted cos it would largely remove this worry for me entirely and since we have cold winters, a warm engine probably helps the consumption and hybrid system too. Just the problem that we only have one of those car heating posts for our apartment (2 parking spots, but only one is within that 230v electricity post). The lady has a biogas operated Volvo V70 and does rather short drives, so it's a pretty massive difference in that big cars consumption on shorter trips, as the biogas doesnt kick in until engine is warm enough and will use petrol until that point.

But maybe I just steal her parking spot a few times a winter and put the Yaris Cross on a charger

You'll have to decide about the block heater but your easiest solution is a jump pack.  It is always available wherever you park.

[Dala]

In the case of regular use of the jump pack - is it necessary to unnecessarily overload the car with a 12V car Battery? 
Unnecessarily carries approx. 12 kg more and increases consumption and thus the environment. 
The car Battery can stay at home in the garage. 😏

[Jasper.]

A modern jump starter is light..

[anchorman]

3 minutes ago, Dala said:

In the case of regular use of the jump pack - is it necessary to unnecessarily overload the car with a 12V car battery? 
Unnecessarily carries approx. 12 kg more and increases consumption and thus the environment. 
The car battery can stay at home in the garage. 😏

I suspect you don’t quite understand the system Dala.  You must have a 12V Battery or the car won’t work.

[Dala]

That was a comment with a humorous text.
For reflection.
Why carry such a heavy car Battery when I use something else to start it (jump pack).
It would then be enough to replace this heavy car Battery with another, with a smaller weight.
 

[Cyker]

I do wonder about that... if you took out the 12v Battery and 'jumpstarted' the car, the ECU closes the traction Battery contactors and the DC-DC system takes over the 12v system, will the car run..?

It wouldn't be great long-term as there's a whole load of stuff the car has to recalibrate when it looses 12v power and it won't run right until that's all done, but I do wonder if it would run...? (Not enough to actually try it myself mind  )

Mine seemed to cycle between using the DC-DC, and presumably when the 12v Battery was full, shut off and used just the 12v battery to power everything, so maybe not...

(Supposedly my Mk2 did that too - To reduce drag on the engine from the alternator, it wouldn't charge the battery unless it was low, or the car was coasting or braking. Never noticed tho'!)

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

I do wonder about that... if you took out the 12v battery and 'jumpstarted' the car, the ECU closes the traction battery contactors and the DC-DC system takes over the 12v system, will the car run..?

It wouldn't be great long-term as there's a whole load of stuff the car has to recalibrate when it looses 12v power and it won't run right until that's all done, but I do wonder if it would run...? (Not enough to actually try it myself mind  )

Mine seemed to cycle between using the DC-DC, and presumably when the 12v battery was full, shut off and used just the 12v battery to power everything, so maybe not...

(Supposedly my Mk2 did that too - To reduce drag on the engine from the alternator, it wouldn't charge the battery unless it was low, or the car was coasting or braking. Never noticed tho'!)

You’re joking too right 🤷🏻‍♂️🤔😳

[Derek.w]

If you remove the 12 volt Battery I expect you generate a host of other problems like error codes plus run into the liklehood of burning out your dc/dc converter.

Dont expect Toyota will cover this and I dont advise you try it.

[Cyker]

Bah you people have no imagination!!   

 

[Roy124]

But you have to keep the jumper pack charged.  If you make lots of shirt journeys you may not be in Ready mode long enough. 

To avoid faffing around with taking the jumper pack inside every day or so to recharge, you could fit a backup Battery in the car to recharge the backup Battery. 

It could also be used to provide 12v power and reduce ICE usage as the HV Battery drains more quickly. 

It would need to have sufficient power to be useful though.  Something like 35AHr is probably ideal. 

[tfc]

Has anyone tried a Leisure Battery in there chariot, you can get a agm leisure Battery roughly the same dimensions but double the AHr as you dont need CCA on a hybrid. They charge quicker and can be discharged as low as 20% compared to a normal car Battery at 40%   

[Derek.w]

2 hours ago, tfc said:

Has anyone tried a Leisure battery in there chariot, you can get a agm leisure battery roughly the same dimensions but double the AHr as you dont need CCA on a hybrid. They charge quicker and can be discharged as low as 20% compared to a normal car battery at 40%   

All the leisure Battery I have seen are big units and wont fit under your rear bench seat then again if you do find a unit it wont necessary bolt down so in the long run its work out cheaper buying a unit thats designed to work & fit in the space you have.

CCA is on the Battery because the unit is/can be used in some vehicles with starting motors ie  small 1 liter cars.

[Dala]

this would be interesting:

https://voltiumenergy.com/product/smart-battery/voltium-energy-lifepo4-smart-battery-ve-spbt-1250-12v-50ah/

  

[Derek.w]

7 minutes ago, Dala said:

this would be interesting:

https://voltiumenergy.com/product/smart-battery/voltium-energy-lifepo4-smart-battery-ve-spbt-1250-12v-50ah/

  

I can see straight away that it wont clamp down under the rear bench seat without you redesigning the fittiing clamp then its probably not a anti tip proof Battery so not vented to the outside of the vehicle.

   Your battery  above Length 198  W166 H170

Original specifcations  Length 175 W175 H190

So it just wont mechanically fit or lock down with the clamp system under the rear seat.

[Dala]

Width = 166±3mm 
2,5cm special holder under the Battery for mounting ?  😏

when i have time i will have to lift the back seat and measure everything 

I really like this Battery

[tfc]

Have you seen the price of them batteries , I have to sell the house to buy the Battery 499 euro😲

[IT Troll]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:50 PM, Roy124 said:

To avoid faffing around with taking the jumper pack inside every day or so to recharge, you could fit a backup battery in the car to recharge the backup battery.

The solution that certain other HEV manufacturers use seems better. The 12v Battery is a lithium and can be boosted from the HV Battery with a manual switch. Seems bonkers to have to carry a backup Battery when there is giant battery sat in the car doing nothing.

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, IT Troll said:

Seems bonkers to have to carry a backup battery when there is giant battery sat in the car doing nothing.

Seems bonkers to me that people buy a  Hybrid to get huge MPG figures then dont drive it often enough to keep the 12v Battery topped up, buying a jump pack because you are worried your £22,000+ car may not start is crazy.

[Roy124]

Max, ignore the excellent fuel consumption question.  Some years ago, driving a Ford Focus on the A12, I got severe leg ache operating the clutch.  I know it's a regular feature of driving down south but gear changing was less necessary in Lincolnshire.  Nevertheless I resolved from then on to only get an automatic, for 20 years that was a Mercedes.  It had D but also 1-4.

Time came to change and we had no preconceived idea for the next car.  We looked at several smaller cars, automatic was essential and EV was unsuitable. By a happy coincidence from an attentive salesman, disinterest at Kia and Volvo and lack of appeal at others, we got a Toyota. 

We now realise that the CVT is excellent, hybrid fuel consumption a significant economy, and a pure ICE that met our criteria didn't exist. 

As for low mileage, Covid did for that. 

 

[RickyC]

2 hours ago, IT Troll said:

The solution that certain other HEV manufacturers use seems better. The 12v battery is a lithium and can be boosted from the HV battery with a manual switch. Seems bonkers to have to carry a backup battery when there is giant battery sat in the car doing nothing.

If  "other HEV manufacturers" means KIa or Hundai you should also consider the totally different technology of their powertrain that can probably work even if the HV Battery is dead. 

Toyota has choosen to totally isolate HV Battery when car is off for security reasons.  Moreover if they allow to take power from HV to recharge 12V Battery there's an high risk to deplete also HV battery.  And HSD is unable to start in case of a very low HV batttey SOC.  While you can recover a dead 12V battery situation with an easily available 12V booster or with jump cables, you need a special charger to recharge a dead HV battery. 

[Max_Headroom]

34 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

As for low mileage, Covid did for that. 

I agree but we are now not restricted by covid but still see people joining to report problems with their 12v Battery.

I dont get why anyone who drives a few miles a week would pay so much for a car designed get the most MPG possible without being a EV.

[Cyker]

Me neither; I mean, they're grown adults and entitled to spend their money how they want, but it just seems like a lot of money to spend on something to not take advantage of it.

They're not even that good if you take the incredible drivetrain out of the equation; There are cheaper cars that, while less efficient, would not cost that much more to run with lower mileages, and probably have better build quality too!

 

[Max_Headroom]

It never ceases to amaze me that people can spend so much without doing any research into the car they plan to buy, maybe its my OCD but when i was looking for a new car i made  a small list of cars i liked then i did a lot of research over a few weeks and chose the MK3,  i like how it looks different to most cars on the road (i know they are a bit marmite with members) it has a cam chain not belt, has no turbo, is not diesel and has a 5 year warranty it also returns a decent MPG and from what i read is a reliable car if serviced regularly.

I do plan to go hybrid in the future and will  probably buy the Cross or another Yaris but only because i will do enough miles to keep the 12v Battery topped up or as mentioned  elsewhere we go to the next town at least once a week shopping so i will sit in the car in ready mode while the boss does the shopping,  if i did a very low weekly mileage i wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

[CruxisCore]

Paying less for a car also gets you a **** car. I can understand that if you are at a point in your life when you dont have to drive the cheapest thing out there, why would you? Even if your mileage is very low, for some people there's an ecological side to the decision making ("i dont drive much, but id rather do that bit a little greener as well").

Hybrid cars arn't even exactly that expensive in the early range. The problem isnt people buying hybrid cars with low mileage, it's that 1) the problem actually exists where low mileage has the 12v run dry where it wouldnt in a ICE car (at least to same extent) 2) the dealers don't say a damn thing about this when they are selling the car

I can accept the premise of "These hybrids are REALLY good, but dont pick it with low mileage with how the tech is right now". But nobody says that, cos they want to sll that 25k car instead of the 20k ICE car. You really can't roll the blame on the customers unless they made the decision knowing that their mileage isnt gonna be enough to charge keep it charged up.

Given, part of the problem isnt about just the hybrid part. An alternator isnt gonna fare much better in the cold winter with short trips and with all the bells and whistles like keyless entry and whatnot eating power. Yet, this is the biggest problem for these hybrids cars with no alternators.

Around here, it's not the working class driving much in the most expensive cars around the time. It's the pensioners who have already earned their salary, inherited their parents and whatnot. They mostly drive to the local petrol station to gossip with their buddies and get the groceries. And these are easily 50k+ cars. Yet, somehow we arnt discussing why people with low mileage buy them. It's cos their 12v system holds up for whatever reason.

I would hope that Toyota adds the kinda 12v reset like other cars have, if what everyone says here is true that it doesnt require much juice to be able to start the car, so they can probably do that while still protecting the HV Battery. Maybe through a normally open relay that closes when holding that button, giving a limited amount of juice to the 12v, just enough to fire up the car at the same time. Would still be disconnected for safety reasons other than when the button is pressed.

[Roy124]

Max, in the late 60s I saw a SAAB 99.  A year later I went into the SAAB Sales Office in Limassol and ordered one.  By then the 1854cc engine was available to I opted for that. 

I saw no brochures before I walked in.  I had never touched one let alone sat in one. It cost me £1,054, I drove it home, 4,000 miles across Europe, and kept it 8 years. 

There is a saying in aviation, if it looks right it probably is right.