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Weird rattle in certain rpm


CrayCZ
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Hello everyone. I'm new here and also one year owner of my first Toyota - Auris TS 2017 1.6 97kw, now 65k kms. I bought the car from Toyota authorized dealer with full service history. Immediately after buying I changed the Oil to 5w30 and noticed some weird rattle in rpm range cca 1000-1700. So I performed another Oil change to Eneos 0w20 with no luck. Then I changed all spark plugs (denso oem). All filters also changed. 

Can someone help where to look next? Below I attached links to video. The sound is hearable both in neutral and shifted. The car performs great since I got it, fuel consumption still the same, Oil consumption simply zero

Thank you everyone for help, answers, opinions... 

 

EDIT: I also have to mention that the car was checked by three Toyota mechanics, two said this is normal, third one said not normal and to look under valve cover - I'm not willing to pay them. Techstream diag is without any error codes. 

 

 

 

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The sound is always there. When cold it's almost unhearable - higher revs etc. It doesn't change with temperature/length of drive. It also goes away with higher rpms, no matter what gear, anything above cca 1800rpm sounds perfectly healthy and good. Idle is also OK. 
 

EDIT: Engine in video is warmed up

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31 minutes ago, furtula said:

Kinda sounds like a lifter on 1 cylinder only to me, can try summoning @flash22 he has better ear for such things.

OK thank you. With this "mileage" kinda odd for lifter to go bad (?). 

I Googled a lot and found that VSV or solenoid could produce rattle but can't tell

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Looking at earlier pics from when I got the car, I noticed white markings on one of the OCV solenoids for Valvematic (pic below). Could mean that someone was "messing" up with it before - although none of these reports is shown in service history in Toyota. I also attached screenshot from Toyota Techstream diag, wich shows some historical records - in my opinion according to some electrics problem (probably due to rodent visit, as I found some debris when cleaning the engine).

obrázek_2021-08-25_134054.png

182683860_2184545618348958_380067063949581484_n (2).jpg

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Valvematic controller in your car is electric, so i'm unsure how any Oil control valve is related to it. VVTI is Oil pressure driven.

Even if valvematic controller is broken, you would feel loss of power, and it would be intermittent, meaning sometimes it would work fine, sometimes it would fail, this was issue mostly with 2010-2012 Auris.

Whatever the issue is, looks like it's on top of the engine, so that would mean cheaper and easier repair.

My guess is still one of the lifters, pressure increases, and it starts to work as it should, that would also explain no knocking or bad sounds at higher rpm. I saw there are Oil additives for lifters that should help with this, not sure how effective such thing is.

 

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12 minutes ago, furtula said:

Valvematic controller in your car is electric, so i'm unsure how any oil control valve is related to it. VVTI is oil pressure driven.

Even if valvematic controller is broken, you would feel loss of power, and it would be intermittent, meaning sometimes it would work fine, sometimes it would fail, this was issue mostly with 2010-2012 Auris.

Whatever the issue is, looks like it's on top of the engine, so that would mean cheaper and easier repair.

My guess is still one of the lifters, pressure increases, and it starts to work as it should, that would also explain no knocking or bad sounds at higher rpm. I saw there are oil additives for lifters that should help with this, not sure how effective such thing is.

 

From what I learned, Valvematic controller (as electric as it can be) provides variable lift for valves. On the other hand Oil control valves provide variable timing for valves (both intake and exhaust, two OCVs) and this is performed by changing Oil pressure from solenoids to ports on the cam shaft itself. 

I'm not mechanic by any means so I may be wrong. Anyway it looks like this "problem" is for someone more educated and cant be user fixed by tightening, loosing, changing parts or fluids.

I'll try and search some other mechanic as I'm not willing to pay someone for guessing, authorized or non-authorized.

Thank you

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1 hour ago, CrayCZ said:

From what I learned, Valvematic controller (as electric as it can be) provides variable lift for valves. On the other hand oil control valves provide variable timing for valves (both intake and exhaust, two OCVs) and this is performed by changing oil pressure from solenoids to ports on the cam shaft itself. 

I'm not mechanic by any means so I may be wrong. Anyway it looks like this "problem" is for someone more educated and cant be user fixed by tightening, loosing, changing parts or fluids.

I'll try and search some other mechanic as I'm not willing to pay someone for guessing, authorized or non-authorized.

Thank you

Hi,

it does sound like lifters indeed. If you want to try with additives I can highly recommend you wynns, these are usually of the best quality and if they don’t make difference means there was no need of them, usually they work great. you can try to buy from Eurocarparts or carparts4less with discount codes or Amazon or eBay ., I can suggest hydraulic valves lifters treatment https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-Hydraulic-Valve-Lifter-Treatment/dp/B0842984NP/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1Y1N4TJHUUBLU&dchild=1&keywords=wynns+hydraulic+valve+lifter+oil+additive&qid=1629904022&sprefix=Wynns+hyd%2Caps%2C271&sr=8-5 in the current Oil, drive for few hundred miles , if no change then engine flush https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-51265-Engine-Petrol-Diesel/dp/B000Y8WF06/ref=sr_1_5?crid=19ZHZURWB48BJ&dchild=1&keywords=wynns+engine+flush&qid=1629904151&sprefix=Wynns+eng%2Caps%2C597&sr=8-5 and new Oil 0w20 quality one and Toyota filter. Then drive for another few hundred miles and if it’s still noisy  you can try Oil friction proofing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-1831022-Friction-Proofing-Bottle/dp/B0068NMDY4/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=wynns+oil+friction&qid=1629904246&sr=8-, and then if nothing happens for better you can look for mechanical repair. White markings on parts are usually typical  for Toyota as quality control markings from the factory and not necessarily been a used part replacement. My car has plenty and all other Toyotas that I had access to them previously. Here is my one . 

47360DD1-6524-43F0-92C5-ED96C18CA01B.png

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2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi,

it does sound like lifters indeed. If you want to try with additives I can highly recommend you wynns, these are usually of the best quality and if they don’t make difference means there was no need of them, usually they work great. you can try to buy from Eurocarparts or carparts4less with discount codes or Amazon or eBay ., I can suggest hydraulic valves lifters treatment https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-Hydraulic-Valve-Lifter-Treatment/dp/B0842984NP/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1Y1N4TJHUUBLU&dchild=1&keywords=wynns+hydraulic+valve+lifter+oil+additive&qid=1629904022&sprefix=Wynns+hyd%2Caps%2C271&sr=8-5 in the current oil, drive for few hundred miles , if no change then engine flush https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-51265-Engine-Petrol-Diesel/dp/B000Y8WF06/ref=sr_1_5?crid=19ZHZURWB48BJ&dchild=1&keywords=wynns+engine+flush&qid=1629904151&sprefix=Wynns+eng%2Caps%2C597&sr=8-5 and new oil 0w20 quality one and Toyota filter. Then drive for another few hundred miles and if it’s still noisy  you can try oil friction proofing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wynns-1831022-Friction-Proofing-Bottle/dp/B0068NMDY4/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=wynns+oil+friction&qid=1629904246&sr=8-, and then if nothing happens for better you can look for mechanical repair. White markings on parts are usually typical  for Toyota as quality control markings from the factory and not necessarily been a used part replacement. My car has plenty and all other Toyotas that I had access to them previously. Here is my one . 

47360DD1-6524-43F0-92C5-ED96C18CA01B.png

Well thank you, this is actually helpful. Today I visited another mechanic, which also guessed lifter. But I have to say, the tick/rattle isn't there when cold start before warm up - got my wife to start the car and listened carefully under hood. 

This is something I don't get - lifters tick when cold don't they? Why would it tick when warmed and lubed? Thin Oil

Also the sound is more present on the left side, where water pump is. I don't hear the pump on idle, could it be heard in rpms? I'm kinda desperate as I don't have garage with good references around - the one which did the first Oil change to 5w30 put in Shell Helix ACEA C3 (diesel Oil nowhere near to Toyota specs)! That's when I started to notice the tick and changed back to 0w20 API myself after 1200kms.

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1 hour ago, CrayCZ said:

Well thank you, this is actually helpful. Today I visited another mechanic, which also guessed lifter. But I have to say, the tick/rattle isn't there when cold start before warm up - got my wife to start the car and listened carefully under hood. 

This is something I don't get - lifters tick when cold don't they? Why would it tick when warmed and lubed? Thin oil? 

Also the sound is more present on the left side, where water pump is. I don't hear the pump on idle, could it be heard in rpms? I'm kinda desperate as I don't have garage with good references around - the one which did the first oil change to 5w30 put in Shell Helix ACEA C3 (diesel oil nowhere near to Toyota specs)! That's when I started to notice the tick and changed back to 0w20 API myself after 1200kms.

Oh well, could be from the Oil then. Just use 0w20 A5 spec Toyota or Petronas or mobile1, something quality and preferably Toyota Oil filter, or mann something again of a good quality. If they tick on hot only means most likely Oil is not suitable, maybe too thin but not necessary, can be just thin, viscosity, fluidity, lube properties are different between different Oil types, best to stick with the manufacturer recommended. Don’t use hydraulic valves lifter treatment, that additive is suitable for lifters that are stuck or blocked by Oil sludge, will make things worse in your case IMO. Only engine flush, quality Oil exact spec and eventually Oil friction modifier, that thing makes Oil very lubricious but keeps viscosity and fluidity unchanged.👍

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I used to have similar sound on my Mondeo and it was the alternator's freewheel clutch. I am not sure with the translation so here is pic of that part. 

image.jpeg

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11 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Oh well, could be from the oil then. Just use 0w20 A5 spec Toyota or Petronas or mobile1, something quality and preferably Toyota oil filter, or Mann something again of a good quality. If they tick on hot only means most likely oil is not suitable, maybe too thin but not necessary, can be just thin, viscosity, fluidity, lube properties are different between different oil types, best to stick with the manufacturer recommended. Don’t use hydraulic valves lifter treatment, that additive is suitable for lifters that are stuck or blocked by oil sludge, will make things worse in your case IMO. Only engine flush, quality oil exact spec and eventually oil friction modifier, that thing makes oil very lubricious but keeps viscosity and fluidity unchanged.👍

Yes I use only mann filters on all of my cars. Current Oil is Eneos Premium Ultra 0w20 API SN - exactly what manual says. Will try something thicker with Toy specs next time. 

https://www.eneos.cz/eneos-ultra-0w20-api-sn-ilsac-gf-5/?gclid=CjwKCAjw1JeJBhB9EiwAV612y4loQKIsAbs104yjsq7mTR9m3Bp-V-qJOWu9ip1tiCf1sY-jt_T9YRoCU48QAvD_BwE

If I turn audio and fans off I can hear the tick inside the car even with windows up, again only when hot after few kms drive. Cold start today in garage no tick... I will try to get it on video compared cold and warm

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9 hours ago, Tomv said:

I used to have similar sound on my Mondeo and it was the alternator's freewheel clutch. I am not sure with the translation so here is pic of that part. 

image.jpeg

Will look into that. Early days I was suspecting some accessories too since the sound comes from their side of engine. 

I have to mention that since I got it I started using only 100 octane premium fuel mixed with some additives from VIF since I didn't know what the car has been running and how. After few months I switched to premium 95 with additives in every second tank. Maybe some carbon deposit got flushed away... Can't tell, I also don't know if injector could sound like this. 

 

Below is a pic of spark plug, which was in there probably for whole 60k kms, then I changed them. From what I can tell it is a little carbon fouled but nothing really bad. 

IMG_20210620_155428.jpg

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I would give it some more time, maybe it will disappear over time, since you said the car has been running diesel Oil.

Those plugs look really good, considering the mileage, but then again, they are rated for 60k miles.

Since you mentioned that when cold, it works fine,  trying a bit thicker Oil, 5W30, might remedy the issue.

As for a decent mechanic, i had the same issue as you, found mine by checking reviews on google maps, and the guy was quite good and honest, maybe a bit lacking in social skills tho. When people are angry, they tend to write bad reviews, so a shop having like 4.5* must not be that bad.

 

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23 minutes ago, CrayCZ said:

Will look into that. Early days I was suspecting some accessories too since the sound comes from their side of engine. 

I have to mention that since I got it I started using only 100 octane premium fuel mixed with some additives from VIF since I didn't know what the car has been running and how. After few months I switched to premium 95 with additives in every second tank. Maybe some carbon deposit got flushed away... Can't tell, I also don't know if injector could sound like this. 

 

Below is a pic of spark plug, which was in there probably for whole 60k kms, then I changed them. From what I can tell it is a little carbon fouled but nothing really bad. 

IMG_20210620_155428.jpg

Injectors on this car are not like on direct injection, not sure if they can cause that sort of noise. If it’s me I will do some try with additives and change the Oil again to clean maximum the internals and just leave it like that, it’s not too bad and only comes and goes and if engine is running ok I probably would not bother to look further. 👍 I long motorway run for an hour or so may be beneficial. 

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17 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Injectors on this car are not like on direct injection, not sure if they can cause that sort of noise. If it’s me I will do some try with additives and change the oil again to clean maximum the internals and just leave it like that, it’s not too bad and only comes and goes and if engine is running ok I probably would not bother to look further. 👍 I long motorway run for an hour or so may be beneficial. 

From when this occurs the car ran some highway trips, now it is 3000kms later. The car runs great, no rough idle no noise in high speeds or vibrations.

I will wait till the next Oil change I plan before winter. Will see how it does after that - in the mean time I will search for some mechanic ✌️

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26 minutes ago, furtula said:

I would give it some more time, maybe it will disappear over time, since you said the car has been running diesel oil.

Those plugs look really good, considering the mileage, but then again, they are rated for 60k miles.

Since you mentioned that when cold, it works fine,  trying a bit thicker oil, 5W30, might remedy the issue.

As for a decent mechanic, i had the same issue as you, found mine by checking reviews on google maps, and the guy was quite good and honest, maybe a bit lacking in social skills tho. When people are angry, they tend to write bad reviews, so a shop having like 4.5* must not be that bad.

 

Will try thicker Oil. 5w30 is mentioned in specs and since the car is garaged in winter I doubt it will effect start ups or something else

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I was starting my car just fine in -20C with 5W30, was using Champion new energy Oil. You get better lubrication with 5W30, but 0W20, gets you 2-3% better mpg.

Usually people switch to 5W30 after the car hits some 100k miles, for better engine protection.

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27 minutes ago, Catlover said:

-20c.  That is cold. Where do you live Dean?

There was a cold wave for a few days, car was outside, no issues starting.

I live in same country as op, Czechia.

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Nice country. Did a 2 week coach tour in 1976 to Katowice, Poland for the World Speedway Final on a Sunday, passed into Czechoslovakian at Ostrava, couple days in Prague ending up in Marianske Lazne the following Sunday for the World Long Track Championship, back to Hamburg to pick up the boat. Being in the communist controlled days it was always interesting when we got to a border control.

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3 hours ago, furtula said:

I was starting my car just fine in -20C with 5W30, was using Champion new energy oil. You get better lubrication with 5W30, but 0W20, gets you 2-3% better mpg.

Usually people switch to 5W30 after the car hits some 100k miles, for better engine protection.

Nice, first post and another Czech owner. I don't care much about fuel consumption, when I try hard I get it under 7/100 but that's not what I want from car. So 5w30 it is. I'll avoid shells castrols and stick with eneos or try liqui moly / Mobil

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49 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Nice country. Did a 2 week coach tour in 1976 to Katowice, Poland for the World Speedway Final on a Sunday, passed into Czechoslovakian at Ostrava, couple days in Prague ending up in Marianske Lazne the following Sunday for the World Long Track Championship, back to Hamburg to pick up the boat. Being in the communist controlled days it was always interesting when we got to a border control.

How can you remember all those city names after such a long time? I'm not able to recall city's names from my last year holidays 🙂 

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Remembering 45 years ago is not too much a problem, it’s what went on 5 minutes ago……that is the problem.  🤪

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