E10 petrol for hybrid engine, or not?

[Catlover]

29 minutes ago, rickywales said:

I have been using E10 in my 2011 Avensis 1.8 in Finland for the last 6 months and my average consumption is 42mpg

Is the better, worse, or the same as previously. 
is the engine running as well, or not.

[rickywales]

20 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Is the better, worse, or the same as previously. 
is the engine running as well, or not.

The engine runs perfectly well but unfortunately I have never driven the car on any other fuel to compare it with E10 has been in use here for a long time and there's no apparent issues. I also have run multiple garden Machines and a 90hp Honda outboard on it although boat owners tell me it goes stale after 3 months so its normal to run these machines out of fuel before standing them for the winter months. It would be interesting to see what MPG others are getting from the Avensis 1.8, included in my figure is probably around 2,000 km of trailer towing also. I think the UK press are creating a panic story around this fuel because theres no real stories about it in Europe and the roads are not littered with dead cars either

 

[rickywales]

27 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Is the better, worse, or the same as previously. 
is the engine running as well, or not.

I forgot to add Toyota Hybrids are the fastest selling cars here and by far a popular vehicle, and they will all be running on this stuff

[Cyker]

Currently I'm half-way through my first tank of sainsbury's finest E10 and so far smeg all difference noticed; Engine doesn't sound noticeably different, still hauls when I ask it to, current tank average is 79.7mpg.

That said I have no real way of knowing if this is actually E10 or still E5 since we've established the pump marking is meaningless  

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:30 AM, olddriver said:

The government website says that almost all Toyota European cars made from January 1998 are cleared for use with E10, see the attached.

My Corolla was made in September 1998, so I think that I will be using E5, just to be sure, even if it is 10p a litre more.

Toyota GB are now saying that pre 1998 engines are not compatible with E10 -

 

[TonyHSD]

I am back to Tesco momentum 99 E5 after two tanks of BP 95 E10 and I think my car likes premium E5 more than the regular E10 . 

[Luke717]

Topping up the tank twice with about 20 litres of Shell E10 each time as I have done in recent weeks probably isn't enough time or quantity to come to a conclusion on whether E10 is any good or not, more economical or not, etc.

Still, I will say that I notice no difference at all in car behaviour, sounds from the engine (hardly can hear the engine in any case as the car runs on Battery power more often than not), fuel consumption and overall performance.

So, I'll stick with it for the time being!

[Cyker]

On my second tank now and not noticed any difference either. I suspect the newer dynamic force engines are designed to main E10 so it doesn't impact them as much as engines designed to main E0 or E5.

That said, I'm still slightly suspicious my station has had E10 since before the switchover as I did notice a small but noticeable average MPG drop many months prior to the switchover when I still had the Mk2 Yaris. The drop was consistent with the difference the lower energy content of E10 vs E5 had, but TBH that car had so many issues it could just as easily have been one of those  

 

[MyOpinionIsWorthless]

5 hours ago, Luke717 said:

Topping up the tank twice with about 20 litres of Shell E10 each time as I have done in recent weeks probably isn't enough time or quantity to come to a conclusion on whether E10 is any good or not, more economical or not, etc.

Still, I will say that I notice no difference at all in car behaviour, sounds from the engine (hardly can hear the engine in any case as the car runs on battery power more often than not), fuel consumption and overall performance.

So, I'll stick with it for the time being!

Does anyone see the similarity to 2* 3* 4* and LRP comparisons?
 

[AisinW]

E10 is Ok if you drive the car often. Only few PHEV owners have problems, expensive problems by not using the ICE for a long time (6m or more).  Alcohol adsorb water and stay at the bottom of fuel tank, corrode the fuel pump, injectors, fuel lines, etc. E5 has less effect and may benefit to PHEV owner. For regular hybrid, there is no harm from E10 and we used it in  USA since 2008. Some older cars may have running too lean detonation issue but very mild. I had this problem on my Altima 02, Prius 06, and Sienna 04 but not on my Auris 15. 

Putting Premium or higher octane hurts our wallet and engine too. Higher octane is harder to be burned and designed for high performance cars with higher compression. There is no single benefit from running higher octane unless the engine is full of carbon builds up and getting higher effective compression 

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, AisinW said:

E10 is Ok if you drive the car often. Only few PHEV owners have problems, expensive problems by not using the ICE for a long time (6m or more).  Alcohol adsorb water and stay at the bottom of fuel tank, corrode the fuel pump, injectors, fuel lines, etc. E5 has less effect and may benefit to PHEV owner. For regular hybrid, there is no harm from E10 and we used it in  USA since 2008. Some older cars may have running too lean detonation issue but very mild. I had this problem on my Altima 02, Prius 06, and Sienna 04 but not on my Auris 15. 

Putting Premium or higher octane hurts our wallet and engine too. Higher octane is harder to be burned and designed for high performance cars with higher compression. There is no single benefit from running higher octane unless the engine is full of carbon builds up and getting higher effective compression 

My auris hybrid runs so much better on 99 E5 and it’s the same price as regular 95 E10 if I buy from certain garages, every time I fill up 99 I feel the difference, it’s like driving a different car.     

[AisinW]

7 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

My auris hybrid runs so much better on 99 E5 and it’s the same price as regular 95 E10 if I buy from certain garages, every time I fill up 99 I feel the difference, it’s like driving a different car.     

What is the mileage in yours? The carbon build up may increase the compression.  Auris is tuned for Super 95 and the timing will not change if we put premium 99. Switching from E5 to E10 theoretically reduce 1.75% energy and do not effect naturally aspirated engines much. I read a report long ago that E10 effects more in small turbo engines because of higher oxygen content fools the O2 sensors.  I avoid E10 unless it is more than 10% cheaper. 

But i may be wrong if Auris can benefit higher octane. Or may be we get some benefit from higher detergent cleaning the fuel lines and injectors. I know that ShellV has 2x detergent than regular Shell.  

[nielshm]

I've been doing some research that surprices me. 

In terms of energy content in e10 fuel, there are quite a difference between brands. 

Datasheets are hard to find, but I did mange to find Shell and Q8. 

Q8 fuel Goeasy products, has a energy content 43,9 MJ/kg. Borh E5 and E10. 

Shell Fuelsave is much worse, only 42,6 MJ/kg. 

Shell V-power is in between with 43,3 MJ/kg. 

Now, if thats true, we should be able to see a difference in range. It's rougly 2,5%, and Shell beeing the worst, that's really a surprice. 

I know that additives makes a huge difference in terms of performance in any other way, not only energy content, maybe Shell is better choice overall. 

I think I'll try to info from find Esso, BP and other major brands. 

[TonyHSD]

Before the switch to E10 since beginning of September I was filling up mostly at local BP/M&S regular 95 E5, the car had best performance and efficiency, opposite this garage is located a Shell one and I was very disappointed from their 95 E5, there was noticeable difference how the car drives similar to what I found now with 99 E5 from Tesco against 95 E10 from the same BP/m&s. The engine is a lot quieter, the transition from electric to petrol is seamless, no thud at all in almost all scenarios, under light or moderate load there is almost no noise from ice it’s like keep going on electric but actually it’s both petrol and electric, it’s super smooth drive with 99 E5. Fuel consumption is exactly the same in comparison to 95 E10. Mileage is 184000 and keep going by 1000 every week. The car still drives as day one. 👍

[Roy124]

Is it true or is it subjective? 

Decades ago petrol was, IRCC, 97 or 98 octane. Super 101 octane was produced for higher compression engines. Rumours abounded that you got more power if you switched to super octane. Many people did and swore by it. 

It made *** all difference to a Standard 8.

In a SAAB once, running on Cypriot 98 octane I switched to Turkish 90 octane.  It made no discernable difference to its running. 

The only noticeable difference was the need to apply full choke to stop the engine after switching off. 😆

[AndrueC]

I've noticed this year that my summer mpg hasn't been as good. However I can think of three possible explanations:

* The weather. It's been a bit odd and we know that can have an effect.

* E10 fuel. No idea if/when that's what I started filling up with. I  normally buy from Tesco so it's anyone's guess what ends up in my tank.

* No commuting. Hybrids are best when pottering around town and I've done very little of that over the last 18 months. Most of my driving is on the open road and that's just not where hybrids are at their best.

I'm still managing over 60mpg but only just. The car is usually showing 64 on the dash where's previous summers it was 69.

I did think last summer was pretty normal though so perhaps the lack of commuting isn't the answer.

[AisinW]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:11 AM, TonyHSD said:

Before the switch to E10 since beginning of September I was filling up mostly at local BP/M&S regular 95 E5, the car had best performance and efficiency, opposite this garage is located a shell one and I was very disappointed from their 95 E5, there was noticeable difference how the car drives similar to what I found now with 99 E5 from Tesco against 95 E10 from the same BP/m&s. The engine is a lot quieter, the transition from electric to petrol is seamless, no thud at all in almost all scenarios, under light or moderate load there is almost no noise from ice it’s like keep going on electric but actually it’s both petrol and electric, it’s super smooth drive with 99 E5. Fuel consumption is exactly the same in comparison to 95 E10. Mileage is 184000 and keep going by 1000 every week. The car still drives as day one. 👍

That makes sense, at 184 000 miles probably you start to have significant amount of carbon built up on the piston and increase the compression slightly. Therefore, you feel the benefit of premium fuel. I prefer the cheapest E5 fuel from BP, Total, Costco, or Shell that usually have higher detergent content to keep the engine clean.  Ethanol react with phosphorus in engine oil, reduce the lubricity and kill catalytic converter, that is why we are limited to E10 now. 

[Stivino]

13 minutes ago, AisinW said:

I prefer the cheapest E5 fuel from BP, Total, Costco, or Shell that usually have higher detergent content to keep the engine clean.

I would be interested to see the source of that information. Can you provide a link, please?

[AisinW]

https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/  or 

It is in USA but give enough info which one that usually have good detergent.  Total (not available in USA) and BP were not listed in toptiergas but they have their own claims and this video shows BP has high detergent too.  I do not want to put premium fuel that practically have no benefit if your car has no higher compression or tuned for premium. I just need high enough detergent, not bare minimum. 

[Stivino]

Are we in the USA?

You really must stop watching that YouTube rubbish.

if you believe all you hear, you’ll eat all you see.

i’m quite sure that with a 2 minute search I could find the exact opposite to their claims.

[AisinW]

Off course no. It is absolutely your choice and your cars.  For me, those are still   good guidance and most importantly, we have Toyota that are not that sensitive to gasoline that  clog injectors and fuel related issues.   You can do your own tab tests on gasoline near your home and help us with more accurate data.  

[TonyHSD]

I do prefer to trust my car how it drives and pick the garage and fuel with whom the engine runs the best and its most efficient. Previously was my local BP after I had some issues with other Shell and Tesco fuels, I am talking about 95 E5, rarely used 99 before the ethanol change. I am not going to be like if there is no 99 I am not driving the car but at the same price per litre will fill up where possible Tesco momentum 99 E5 over 95 E10 from other garages. Thinking of trying the regular 95 E10 from other garage different from my BP to see if any difference again. 👍

[Stivino]

36 minutes ago, AisinW said:

You can do your own tab tests on gasoline near your home and help us with more accurate data. 

The results of my tests are as such;  I’ve used nothing but the cheapest supermarket fuel I can get my hands on for as long as I can remember, probably since the supermarkets started to dominate the fuel market and, I can honestly say that I’ve not seen any deterioration in performance, economy, or reliability.

[AisinW]

Yes, I agree with you. Cheapest gas stations usually get fresh fuel because many people fuel theirs there. Higher detergent than minimum mandatory value may show higher effects on people who do a lot of short trips and rarely in motorway or who drive GDI VW. We do not have real data in most UK supermarket gas stations yet, probably they are as good and Costco is actually Top Tier. 

Does 99 BP contain no ethanol? But pure ethanol is actually graded as 108 RON octane rating. But ethanol 33% less energy. 

[Cyker]

It's funny seeing how different the news is presented over there to here!  

But good grief, imagine having a 100 mile school run every day here?! All parents would be bankrupt with our fuel prices!!!