Where will it all end..........

[Lawnmowerman]

Speed limiters to be installed in new cars given type approval from 6th July.

Courtesy AutoExpress

 

UK set to adopt EU-mandated speed limiters

The UK will obey the European Commission’s new road safety regulations, mandating speed limiters on all vehicles from 2022

by: Hugo Griffiths

27 Mar 2019

87

New cars sold in the UK will be fitted with mandatory speed limiters from 2022, after the Department for Transport confirmed it will follow a ruling from the European Commission on safety technology, regardless of whether the UK is in the European Union. 

• Safest cars on sale 2019

The limiters, dubbed Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA), use traffic-sign-recognition cameras and/or GPS data to determine the speed limit in a particular area, automatically limiting engine power and a vehicle’s speed to the prevailing limit if the driver does not slow down to the limit themselves.

The ETSC only recommends a “full on/off switch” for the limiters should be included “to aid public acceptance at introduction”, indicating it intends to push for even stricter rules in the future. While it would be possible to override the ISA by pushing hard on the accelerator, the system would be activated every time the car is started.

The ETSC’s recommendations also stipulate that “If the driver continues to drive above the speed limit for several seconds, the system should sound a warning for a few seconds and display a visual warning until the vehicle is operating at or below the speed limit again.” Once the car returns to or below the speed limit, the limiter would automatically reactivate.

[Flatcoat]

Big brother was watching you, his bigger brother is now controlling you. The road to hell was never paved with more good intentions. Eventually there will be civil unrest. 

[Cyker]

Just find a foreign lorry - Every time I get near one the Speed limit nanny in the car thinks the speed limit is 80 or even 120  

But yeah, unless the goal is to remove the need for a driving test and licence, these nannying systems are just going to have the opposite effect, i.e. making drivers less skilled and more dangerous. It's like they haven't learned anything from the way people treat their Teslas when equipped with the auto-pilot software.

That said it'll be funny when we get to the stage where a car thief steals a car with a hard limiter, and then is chased by a police car that also has a hard-limiter   Then again maybe the thieves will have clever workarounds like a portable 120 sign they dangle out the window in front of the camera  

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

This came to light last year. 

[Yugguy1970]

The recognition technology is nowhere near mature enough or consistent enough to be able to do this.

It's wrong more often than it's right and it is dumb.  12 is not a speed limit you are likely to come across yet my car picks it up every time in a certain place.

 

[Catlover]

I thought I read there was an over ride….. pressing accelerator hard.

Is it any different to using a cruise control or a speed limiter now by choice, there are over rides.

I agree though, there needs to be more accuracy, but that will come.

[Broadway One]

49 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

This came to light last year. 

Hi all........would that be April 1st ?

Barry Wright Lancashire.

[Flatcoat]

43 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

The recognition technology is nowhere near mature enough or consistent enough to be able to do this.

It's wrong more often than it's right and it is dumb.  12 is not a speed limit you are likely to come across yet my car picks it up every time in a certain place.

 

That isn’t the point. The very fact that legislators are bringing in such requirements is the issue for me. I know all the supposed arguments in favour but the implications of this tech and how govts will be able to use it in the future make Orwell’s 1984 pale into insignificance. 

[Flatcoat]

1 minute ago, Broadway One said:

Hi all........would that be April 1st ?

Barry Wright Lancashire.

This isn’t a joking matter. 

[Lawnmowerman]

55 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

This came to light last year. 

I know - but as it came up again thought it worth an airing........

[Jack Taylor]

This makes no sense at all. They clearly aren't differentiating between crashes caused by "Excessive Speed" and crashed caused by "Breaking the Speed Limit"

I know plenty of roads where they are 60 zones but there is no way a normal car would be able to cope at 60mph because it's excessive for that road.

Putting limiters on will just make people sit with their foot down sitting on the max "Limit" of the road regardless of conditions and capabilities of the cars. I reckon it'll cause more harm than good as people will think "Might as well use my full limit" all the time, especially new drivers.

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, Catlover said:

I thought I read there was an over ride….. pressing accelerator hard.

Is it any different to using a cruise control or a speed limiter now by choice, there are over rides.

I agree though, there needs to be more accuracy, but that will come.

That is correct! However, the problem is this is almost certainly the thin end of the wedge - Once this becomes the new normal they'll introduce hard limiters and when people complain they'll just say it isn't much different than the soft limiter so stop complaining.

It wouldn't be so bad if the systems were more accurate, but the fact is they will never be absolutely accurate as there are always signs obscured by muck or overhanging branches, not to mention misrecognition, and partially accurate is just good enough or acceptable when it's something that can make things less safe.

2 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

I know - but as it came up again thought it worth an airing........

Definitely worth publicising - The sad fact with all these decisions from above is either lots of people need to complain about them or, as some of us asked regarding Smart Motorways, how many people need to die before they finally admit they are *not* safer. Anyone with half a brain knew that Smart motorways were never about making the motorway safer, just a way for the incumbent to put their stamp on the road system while they were in office, but they sold it on safety to make it happen. Until the death toll gets enough to overcome their hubris, all anyone can do is spread the word.

The root problem I have with all these things is, it's yet another thing that takes control away from the driver involuntarily. I'm all for driver aids that assist and reduce the workload of the driver, but I draw the line when it takes control away without permission - If there's an accident because e.g. a driver needed to accelerate out of the way of something but was unable to, who gets the blame? I've already documented a couple cases with the auto-brake (e.g. when it triggered for no reason, and when it wouldn't let me pull out of a T-junction) that are potentially dangerous, and this will just add to the pile.

If they change the law to absolve me of any responsibility if my car took control away from me and kills someone then sure, go nuts, but if I am where the buck stops then I should remain the ultimate authority of what the car does.

I also have a real problem with this whole Speed Is Bad message - This is one of the biggest lies perpetrated to drivers. CHANGES in speed is by far the more dangerous thing. Obviously, there are appropriate speeds - I am also of the opinion that idiots who do things like drive at 60mph in a school 20mph zone without a damned good reason should just be perma banned from driving, no retakes - I do not want to share the road with such people, ever, but literally everyone has gone a few mph over the limit to keep up with traffic at least once in their lives, and also driven under the limit where it calls for it - This is a driver training issue, not something that can be fixed with expensive and fallible technology.

Anyone here who's been on a Smart Motorway will have seen what I mean about speed changes being a far greater issue - Scenario: Everyone will be doing 50-70mph happily in their lanes, no dramas, no danger, some lane changes, the odd boy racer weaving but everyone just gets out of their way and lets them go away, then suddenly there's a gantry with 40mph on all lanes and all hell breaks loose - Some people panic brake for the 40, some lift but cross the gantry still above 40 and some just ignore it completely unless they know there's a speed camera in which case they slam on the brakes just before the camera. Meanwhile, half the truckers slow down, while the others keep their foot in and try to pull out into lanes 2 and 3 to try and overtake the people doing 40. I see this so often that frankly I'm surprised there aren't more accidents.

And speaking of speeds, if they want to make hard limiters, they need to review the appropriateness of the speed limits set as drivers will no longer be able to use common sense - Case in point, the proliferation of inappropriate 20mph zones in London is just ridiculous now: Even busses, taxies and the police do not obey some of those limits because it is not appropriate or safe for that road - Example: There is a section that had a 20mph zone past a school, but they extended it to the whole road some years back - Now, this road is a very long and has sections where it becomes very wide, easily 4-wide - I used to try to do 20 down it when it was first put up, but it felt really unsafe (Akin to driving a Twizzy up the M1) and quickly found some people would just overtake me, often accelerating to get it done quickly; I kept at it anyway, until one day even a bus overtook me, and that was it. Now I just keep pace with traffic - This is the only safe thing I can do!

Worse yet, I question whether these 20 mph zones have had any benefit - If anything, they have increased pollution as most cars can't drive at such low speeds at their most efficient gearing, and it's also emboldened pedestrians, cyclists, scooters etc. to try and cross in front of you because your low speed is misleading and throws off their judgement, esp. at night.

phew, apologies, that was quite the rant! but it's something I feel quite strong about, as I really feel the government has been making the road network more and more dangerous for drivers under the pretence of safety or the environment, but I don't know what to do about it!

[FROSTYBALLS]

There is scheduled to be an on/off switch, which I believe will disable the system until the car is next restarted. Whether or not the on/off switch will continue to be available depends on future legislation, etc.

[Firecycle]

Great, so I presume when my new 2022 RAV arrives it will have one fitted at Derby before I take delivery, I just hope the flaming on/off switch is easily accessible!!!!! 

 

[philip42h]

8 minutes ago, Firecycle said:

Great, so I presume when my new 2022 RAV arrives it will have one fitted at Derby before I take delivery, I just hope the flaming on/off switch is easily accessible!!!!! 

 

No ... the new legislation applies to newly type approved models after a given date. Type approval of the current RAV4 models was completed some time ago so the new legislation will not apply to your car ... 😉

[Firecycle]

5 minutes ago, philip42h said:

No ... the new legislation applies to newly type approved models after a given date. Type approval of the current RAV4 models was completed some time ago so the new legislation will not apply to your car ... 😉

Phew that's a relief, whilst I am all for road safety taking too much control  away from a driver is potentiality more dangerous. There will always be accidents where human beings are involved, measure such as this could lead to driver frustration and actually cause more accidents rather than reduce them.

[philip42h]

As usual the media attention is 'sensationalist" and coverage in the motoring journals not entirely accurate or informative - but it isn't entirely wrong either.

The EU legislation is published in English here: Official Journal of the European Union and is a rather challenging read! But it is clear that the legislation takes affect from 6 July 2022 and requires that data on the use of these systems is collected and shared with the Commission by 7 July 2024 and every six months for a period of two years thereafter. So it will be at least 2026 before things go further than giving overspeed warnings and we have those on our cars today - albeit turned off by default; the next generation of type approved models will have such warnings turned on by default (I think).

More readable are reports published in the European Transport Safety Council (ETSC) journal on Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA). These guys are, of course, all for this sort of thing ... but they do give semi-readable reports ofthe direction of travel and on what they believe they want to do.

As others have said, current road sign recognition technology isn't good enough so support their ultimate aim. I guess on mine it shows the correct speed limit better than 50% of the time but less than 80% of the time. A solution is needed that is correct at least 95% of the time - more if it is going to be used to withdraw control from the driver. And there appear to be moves towards having the correct and applicable speed limit broadcast / available to the car without the need for sign recognition ...

The whole thing is presented as rather too much 'stick' and not enough 'carrot'. Ignoring the fact that I don't really approve of speed limits in principle, I'd be really happy if I could set my radar cruise control to the 'limit' speed and have the car correctly adjust that as I passed through road works and variable speed limit zones - just so long as it allowed the excess speed to wash off rather than 'hitting the brakes' to slow down (as the current system does if you reduce the set speed rapidly)!

[TonyHSD]

This is a great idea and a bit too late, it should had been introduced long ago, unfortunately it will be possible to disable it like the acoustic safety sound in latest cars so not exactly up to the job just another annoying thing to think about and do before you are driving off. 
These days people are insane, out of touch about speeds or safety, really bad times, lorry drivers along with most others from the trade like van drivers, taxi thinking their journeys has priority over the rest and racing on the streets, private cars too, no one even watching their speeds, just pushing to the limit, no sense, nothing, and most importantly those who drive like that has no experience at all to control the vehicles  and once they go over the limits of the machines that’s it losing control and crash 💥.
Plus when we live in times where emissions and pollution are important we can not accept fast and furious drive as these actually creates as twice or even more pollution than anything else, there is no point switching to alternative fuels like hydrogen or batteries if drivers continue this trend of stupidity. I spent 12 hours + a day driving and watching/ monitoring drivers behaviour, driving style, speeds, and I can assure you that this is exactly what we need these days real speed limits and one more change about overtaking limits., because basically there are two elements that cause bad traffic jams in rush hours, speeding and overtaking. There is plenty to talk about all that but I am stopping here., just sharing my thoughts and I believe this is only the beginning of a new era where the private car ownership and use will be very different, and it will belong to the wealthy only and all others if they can pay can have a driverless Uber ride or public transport, perhaps an e scooter if they legalise them. 🤣👌

[Stopeter44]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

...because basically there are two elements that cause bad traffic jams in rush hours, speeding and overtaking.

Spot on, Tony !

Traffic flow follows the laws of fluid dynamics, and anything that causes instability in the flow, will break up the flow. So if someone goes too fast, they will try to overtake, will often have to cut in, which causes the driver overtaken too slow down, which ultimately leads to the accordion effect. Of course, inordinately slow drivers will have a similar effect.

My pet hate is the "voiturette", this is something that, IIRC, doesn't exist in the UK. It's a Smart sized vehicle for which no driving license is required. Way back in the day, it was often a form of transport for elderly drivers who had never passed a driving test. Nowadays, it's more usually driven by people who have had their drivers license suspended. These are vehicles, limited to 50 kph, are tolerable in urban areas, but on country roads you can imagine. (They exist in turbo sport versions, well, they have the badges and the stripes, but don't actually go any faster)

[Yugguy1970]

Driving back down the M6 just before Christmas through a long section of finished StupidMotorway, it was 10pm, fairly quiet.

The gantries had been set to 60mph.  I wonder if it was one of these experiments in lowering pollution levels but it was really annoying and seemed utterly pointless.  Had they been set earlier in the day and not turned off?

If these things become mandatory then we will be subject to any arbitrary decision or mistake.

And it will be hilarious when we are all sitting in our limited vehicles while someone in a 2020 car goes speeding by 🤣

[philip42h]

41 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Driving back down the M6 just before Christmas through a long section of finished StupidMotorway, it was 10pm, fairly quiet.

The gantries had been set to 60mph.  I wonder if it was one of these experiments in lowering pollution levels but it was really annoying and seemed utterly pointless.  Had they been set earlier in the day and not turned off?

If these things become mandatory then we will be subject to any arbitrary decision or mistake.

And it will be hilarious when we are all sitting in our limited vehicles while someone in a 2020 car goes speeding by 🤣

If you'd been driving "with due care and attention" you'd have read the signs saying that it is indeed one of these emissions controlling zones - my wife read the signs for me! 🙂 ... assuming that is, you are referring to the section through Birmingham ... 😉

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Stopeter44 said:

My pet hate is the "voiturette", this is something that, IIRC, doesn't exist in the UK

The UK does have a very limited market for these, with companies importing from France, and the licencing requirements are different. 

[Puglet]

Good idea in principle, but there always going to be problems, not keen on an outside 'force' in control my actions. Never been one for speeding, but good to know extra power is there just incase it needed. Often found some speed limits are bit odd and even dangerous, been on unlit winding country roads with high hedges in daylight with a 60mph limit, half that has felt uncomfortable! Round our way the only speeding I seen recently are the police, even then people panic and slow down or stop in silly places.

As for the 'smart' motorways, just finished M4 stretch near me and within 2 weeks saw car broken down, no speed limit and it hadn't made a refuge area, luckily driver managed pull off carriageway onto gap/grass verge, then again saw cars broken down in refuge area, still no speed limit, but recovery vehicles there so why not slow the traffic just in case, spent enough money on the damn things, for a few weeks it was restricted to 60mph as it was before being fully open, but now it full fat 70!

[Yugguy1970]

Indeed.  On the same journey I saw a broken down van.  The poor sod had driven it as far up the grass verge as he could as I gueas he didn't trust StupidMotorways either.

I don't really speed so I don't have an issue with limiters in principle but the tech just isn't good enough yet.

🤣 yes I must have missed the emissions signage.  Obviously we need tech to recognise those signs as well. 🤣

[Cyker]

That's another of my biggest complaints about the smart motorway - It's bad enough the hard shoulders are gone, but they need to step up their game massively with monitoring it; As it is, you're looking on average of 30 minutes before they notice a breakdown and that's just no use to anybody. Then they don't turn the signs off for ages when the problem has been resolved - What this is doing is teaching drivers to ignore the signs! I see it every time there is a lane closure sign; At the beginning, people would move over, but now people actually jump into the closed lane and shoot up it at 70mph until it becomes an X, and even then they ignore it until they see something then just force their way back in. The problem is most of the time it pays off as there is nothing there, and this sort of positive reinforcement just encourages poor behaviour.

IMHO they should just reinstate full time hard shoulders - All they need to do is set it on the gantry signs; I don't understand why they are so reluctant do to this and instead insist it'll cost billions of pounds to do, when all they need to do is flick a switch. Making all-lanes running has literally done nothing to improve traffic flow - If anything it's made it worse as everytime someone has a problem, often the whole motorway gets shut down instead of them just being able to pull over and everyone else carrying on as normal.