Nervous New Driver - Aygo or Yaris?

[DAN@ADRIAN FLUX]

Hi.

If you need any help with insurance at all for whatever vehicle you're looking at then please feel free to give us a try if you wish.

Regards.

Dan.

[forkingabout]

6 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

That's because the 1.2 PSA engine uses a wet cambelt!

Currently on generation 4 of the wet timing belt 😂

[SB1500]

17 hours ago, davidif said:

I don't think that the Aygo contains any Citroen or Peugeot DNA and in fact all three use Toyota engine/transmission etcetc.

I would say that the Aygo is every bit as much a 'true' Toyota as the Yaris is.

If we’re talking about the latest model then possibly. But the original Aygo and 2013 onward one were a joint venture. As far as I know, there was a 1.0 and a 1.2 engine, one was a PSA unit and the other was a Toyota unit and were available on all of the three variants. Unless I am seriously misinformed?  Though the fact that it uses a totally different touch screen system, different antifreeze / oil and service requirements in many ways and shares so much with the other two, I don’t think it’s 100% Toyota - definitely some percentage of shared parts. Though they have been restyled panel wise.  The new model could be totally different. 

it seemed to me it was no different than the Up / Citigo / Mii (same car) or at most, like the middle Ford Ka and Fiat 500 (a better job of changing, but still effectively the same car - I wouldn’t call the Ford Ka a Ford, it’s definitely a Fiat with Ford styling). It was my understanding the Aygo was the same, and would lean more on the PSA parts given that Toyota only requires a car this small for the Europe market so went with a big European manufacturer (PSA) to do so rather than investing its own R&D money. Same with Ford? 
 

[PetrolDave]

Having owned a Mk1 Citroen C1 1.0 for 10 years and a Mk2 Aygo since 2020 I can say with confidence that the mechanicals and electrics are 100% Toyota on both when the 1.0 engine is fitted - every modification I did on the C1 needed Toyota electrical and mechanical parts.

The only differences between the Citroen, Peugeot and Toyota are trim and body parts.

Regarding trim and specification levels as the models evolved over the years since 2005 you can clearly see that Citroen increasingly aimed at the 'cheap' sector, Peugeot at the sporty sector and Toyota at the more comfort & 'luxury' sector.

[davidif]

3 hours ago, SB1500 said:

If we’re talking about the latest model then possibly. But the original Aygo and 2013 onward one were a joint venture. As far as I know, there was a 1.0 and a 1.2 engine, one was a PSA unit and the other was a Toyota unit and were available on all of the three variants. Unless I am seriously misinformed?  Though the fact that it uses a totally different touch screen system, different antifreeze / oil and service requirements in many ways and shares so much with the other two, I don’t think it’s 100% Toyota - definitely some percentage of shared parts. Though they have been restyled panel wise.  The new model could be totally different. 

it seemed to me it was no different than the Up / Citigo / Mii (same car) or at most, like the middle Ford Ka and Fiat 500 (a better job of changing, but still effectively the same car - I wouldn’t call the Ford Ka a Ford, it’s definitely a Fiat with Ford styling). It was my understanding the Aygo was the same, and would lean more on the PSA parts given that Toyota only requires a car this small for the Europe market so went with a big European manufacturer (PSA) to do so rather than investing its own R&D money. Same with Ford? 
 

The Aygo only has only ever had a Toyota engine. The 1.2 was only offered in the C1/108

[Cyker]

Don't forget the 1.4 diesel that was the only other engine choice in the original Aygo launch!  

That would have been awesome, except they made one huge mistake: They used some garbage PSA diesel engine instead of the mighty Toyota 1NDTV! I don't know how they did it, but it was somehow worse than the 1.0L engine in almost every way. Even the fuel economy wasn't much better! (In fact I think it was worse...??)

If they'd used the 1NDTV I think we'd have a lot more diesel Aygos bumbling about... that engine would have been hysterically fun in something as light as an Aygo  

It got killed off pretty quickly because it was so awful so they're almost unheard of now...

 

[Crustyoldavensis]

If you are a nervous driver then which ever car gives you the best visibility would be the way to go.

Either of your choices will be fine on the motorway speed wise. 

 

[Puglet]

Some more helpful info for OP regarding our cars 107 and 108 but both with Toyota engine, but will be the same for the Aygo, road tax is cheap, £20 for our 107 and £0 for our 108, so if you chose wisely you can pay £0, know the 1st gen MK1 Aygos went £0 road tax before equivilent Peugeot/Citroen cars, cars after reg 2017 it all changed!, we get over 50mpg on 108 according to its computer and that's with mainly short local trips, it's been good on our 107 too, but no figures cos I never been a slave to economy, life's too short enjoy driving as long as it safe and legal. Insurance is good price as well, but we are older drivers so not true comparison for a new driver, but a lot of young drivers of them round our way so bodes well. Another asset of these cars is they are cheap and simple to maintain nothing too complicated and expensive to go wrong. 

Talking insurance, know that is an issue for new drivers today, don't know much but all I would say whatever you buy check the insurance quote first because that very cheap car could be very expensive to insure. Know from friend's kids don't discount a more expensive newer car cos with insurance they can be better value.

Makes a change from my first car, I had to spend more on a newer car cos all the ones I looked at in my initial budget were rust buckets!, but thankfully that's one thing these cars etc. don't suffer from.

[Roy124]

Cyker said "They just don't have the torque at high speed to do quick overtakes so whichever one you pick you'll need to learn to downshift or take a run up to overtake." 

Remember this well.  Early days for you, but if you learn to position for a run up to overtake you will avoid the pitfall that many 'experienced' drivers make tailgating a lorry.  You can't see ahead and your speed difference when you pull out is zero. 

From further back you get a better view, can accelerate in lane, and pull out when safe to do so: anticipation. 

[Red_Corolla]

On 1/10/2022 at 6:42 PM, Cyker said:

A *wet* cambelt?! Wat? What's the point of that?? 

It does sound very French, doesn't it?

But, it would obviate the need for any shaft seals behind the cam pulleys, allow the idler bearing to be lubricated and possibly yield a minor reduction in frictional losses. I'm not a design engineer, but those are a few small potential advantages that occur to me.

[Stopeter44]

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Remember this well.  Early days for you, but if you learn to position for a run up to overtake you will avoid the pitfall that many 'experienced' drivers make tailgating a lorry.  You can't see ahead and your speed difference when you pull out is zero. 

Oh that's a good one! The number of people that overtake me, because I am lagging behind so I don't have to brake hard, and I can see a bit more, just stick themselves right on the UBIK* of a lorry.

*replacement by system software for anagram of sear.

[Cyker]

Yeah - It's one of the biggest deficiencies of the driving lessons in this country that you don't get any mandatory motorway training.

I remember a friend in germany being horrified that we didn't even touch the motorway until AFTER we'd passed our tests - He had 4 lessons of autobahn driving (One of which on the nordschlife! Imagine being taken onto the nurburgring as a learner?!?!   ) to teach him to how match speeds, merge, overtake safely. You do get a bit of that on A-roads, but nothing to prepare on merging from a 30mph road to a 70mph motorway safely!

I'm glad they've started to change that, so learners can be taken onto the motorway by their instructors, but they need to make that fully part of the driver training. To this day I still see people (Inevitably in some massive stupid SUV) going far too slowly on the onramp to merge properly and instead trying to bull people out the way with their giant land boat. (Or maybe they're just oblivious to other drivers...)

Going from the slow-ass Mk2 to the Mk4 has made dealing with that situation a lot less stressful, since I can now match speed with the next lane at will and just get out of the way and leave them to it...!

3 hours ago, Red_Corolla said:

It does sound very French, doesn't it?

But, it would obviate the need for any shaft seals behind the cam pulleys, allow the idler bearing to be lubricated and possibly yield a minor reduction in frictional losses. I'm not a design engineer, but those are a few small potential advantages that occur to me.

Ah, that's at least something... I was struggling to think up any benefit to overcome the large number of drawbacks! I don't see why you wouldn't just use a chain in that situation, but then the french don't seem to have figured out timing chains yet (Where everyone else at least *tries* to design the chain to last the life of the engine, I've seen several french cars with chains scheduled to be changed every 60,000 miles  )

I just... a wet belt just seems to be the worst of both worlds! The regular changes of a belt, combined with the horrible PITA long messy job of a chain! I bet the engine is interference too for added excitement!  But as you say... sounds very french  

 

[Stopeter44]

21 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Where everyone else at least *tries* to design the chain to last the life of the engine, I've seen several french cars with chains scheduled to be changed every 60,000 miles  

The latest Renault 3 pots are supposed to be devoid of belt/chain changes and PSA put them at 10 years and 200k km in their 3 pots.

[Roy124]

Cyker, when I passed my test I had never been on the open road or exceeded 30mph.

That year twins at school died in a Head On collision at a combined speed of 140. 

Problem with motorway practise is lack of motorways.  There are none in Scotland North of Sterling.  There are none in Lincolnshire. There are none between Edinburgh and Newcastle.  None in Wales except the South. None East of Cambridge. I could go on. 

[Cyker]

Ahh, I guess that's why they held off making it mandatory...!

 

 

[Puglet]

Talking of very french, only had experience of one proper Peugeot engine, big diesel in motorcaravans and just comparing air filter and cabin filter changes with our Toyota engined 107, one was a very awkward and needed tools and one was a breeze and needed none.

[Cheeseberry]

Just throwing my 2 pennies in as a very new, formerly quite nervous driver. I passed my test in January but didn't get my little 2012 Aygo until last month. I actually learned to drive and took my test in the car I have now (it was my old man's car before, who ironically now owns a 2018 Yaris). I've driven several different makes/models of cars for various reasons as I've been learning to drive.

The Aygo for me has been the one I feel most confident driving for sure but for one reason that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread yet which I personally feel has been important to me as a new driver and may not be something you've considered.

The visibility from the driver's seat, not only up front but also out of the back has been a massive benefit for me when it comes to settling in to driving alone. Being able to see all around with very few obstructions is something that helps me feel safe at all times, but the the key thing for me is the visibility out of the back window when reversing, especially in busy car parks.

It probably sounds silly to an experienced driver but to someone who's only been driving alone for a couple of months, having few obstructions and clear visibility when making the kinds of manoeuvres driving lessons don't really prepare you for has really helped settle my nerves. I really do notice a big difference in most other cars, my dad's new Yaris included.

Food for thought at least.

Meh, may as well mention low insurance and zero road tax while I'm here.

[Hornet3D]

I purchased an ex demonstrator Aygo last month the road tax was £155, which I believe goes up to £165 next month.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[PetrolDave]

1 hour ago, Hornet3D said:

I purchased an ex demonstrator Aygo last month the road tax was £155, which I believe goes up to £165 next month.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

That's correct, after realising that cheap road tax for low emission cars was losing them an enormous amount of income the Government changed the Road Tax rules again in April 2017 to increase the amount with the only exception being zero emission cars (i.e. EVs).

Vehicle Tax Rates from April 2017

[Stopeter44]

6 hours ago, Cheeseberry said:

It probably sounds silly to an experienced driver but to someone who's only been driving alone for a couple of months, having few obstructions and clear visibility when making the kinds of manoeuvres driving lessons don't really prepare you for has really helped settle my nerves. I really do notice a big difference in most other cars, my dad's new Yaris included.

I didn't pass my driving licence until I was past 26, I rode motorcycles but for a variety of reasons never passed a test with them. In the UK, I thought driving a car was way to difficult. I learned how to drive in the USA, and passed an EU driver's test in France in 1996.

Anything, structural, about the car that helps you feel relaxed is good. It's true that you can barely see out of the rear window of a MY21 Yaris, but for reversing there's the rear view camera. Once you have had a car with that you will not wish to go back to the old fashioned way. There are many features available on newer cars, that once you have them you don't want to be without them.

[Hornet3D]

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

That's correct, after realising that cheap road tax for low emission cars was losing them an enormous amount of income the Government changed the Road Tax rules again in April 2017 to increase the amount with the only exception being zero emission cars (i.e. EVs).

Vehicle Tax Rates from April 2017

Thank you for the information, I was a bit slow I should have looked there before posting but I any potential new Aygo or Yaris owner what the latest was on tax so I posted hoping someone would correct me if I was wrong.  Thanks again.

[FROSTYBALLS]

As regards the post April 2017 vehicle tax, only the first year is based on the vehicle's CO2 emissions, with the second and subsequent years being a flat rate depending whether the vehicle is petrol/diesel or alternative fuel.

Additionally there is an extra payment for vehicles with a list price of over £40K at the time of first registration, payable for years 2 to 6 inclusive.

[Hornet3D]

4 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

As regards the post April 2017 vehicle tax, only the first year is based on the vehicle's CO2 emissions, with the second and subsequent years being a flat rate depending whether the vehicle is petrol/diesel or alternative fuel.

Additionally there is an extra payment for vehicles with a list price of over £40K at the time of first registration, payable for years 2 to 6 inclusive.

How dare anyone have that much money they can afford to spend it on a frivolous item such as a car, it's only fair they should be taxed differently. 

[Stopeter44]

46 minutes ago, Hornet3D said:

How dare anyone have that much money they can afford to spend it on a frivolous item such as a car, it's only fair they should be taxed differently. 

Are you joking ? Either way, there are ways where the owner doesn't really pay the retail price of the car, either through leasing arrangements or because it comes as part of BIK package.

[Hornet3D]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:34 AM, SB1500 said:

Good luck with the test when you get around to it! 

My vote here is for the Yaris. We had one in the family from new in 2013 which went 8 years needing nothing but tyres and service items. They exhibit Toyota’s legendary build quality. 

I have nothing against the Aygo, but personally I wouldn’t choose it over a Yaris. It isn’t a true Toyota - it’s built in a shared factory with the C1 / 108 and having just had a lot of trouble with a Citroen myself, I’d not recommend them or any thing dependent on their parts and engines to anybody. It’s not that they’re bad, but they just don’t have a shade on Toyota. 

Buy the best you can afford at the time. The Yaris is a better car objectively. It has more Toyota DNA from top to bottom. Shares some with Mazda but that’s another Japanese quality driven car brand 🙂 

Such collaborations have been quite common in the past and I don't think it makes one car better than the other, just different.  Of course outside of car manufacturing rebadging is rampant and is almost the norm rather than the exception.  Whether car manufactures will continue to collaborate is less clear,  with the shortage of chips, the strain the pandemic has put on deliveries, and the 'just in time' system difficulties, things are changing.  Add in the move from petrol and diesel to electric throws in another major variable.  That is before the you try and factor in the influences from outside the industry due to world events.

I have no real idea where this is all going but I am fairly certain in my own mind we are never going back to what we used to call normal.