12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Dala]

the killer of car batteries is smart charging!
12.8V-13.2V is not a Battery charging voltage!
the capacity is lower in winter - e.g. -20°C is only 60% of the Battery capacity
the solution for the 35Ah Battery is to return the charge to a value higher than 13.6V

[Llynyfan]

Thanks @Roy124 Im parting with it in September for a Mazda Yaris. Well thats the plan, from one hybrid to another, so Ill note all the advice 👍

[flash22]

18 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Sue, I suspect too late to get it changed on warranty, but for others, I monitored battery voltage over a number of days and showed the garage the steady and quite rapid drop over 4-5 days.  They eventually changed the battery without arguing. 

Obviously you need to have a period of 4-5 days without using the car.  I think it was TonyHSD that advised  not opening the driver's door as that activates and deactivates the fuel pump. 

 

That would be the vacuum pump for the brake booster

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Nah, lead acid batteries can take quite a lot of current - A lot more than NiMH and Li+ can - It's one of the reasons they're still used in cars despite NiMH and Li+ batteries being much lighter and having better energy density.

There is a limit, where if you go past it hydrogen will literally boil out of the battery, but this is a known quantity and charging can be limit or cut off before that becomes a problem. Additionally, most car batteries are sealed to stop being a problem, allowing the hydrogen to re-combine safely into the acid, with over-pressure valves to stop extended hydrogen build-up getting too dangerous (read: explosive) pressures.

The charge limit is lower in AGM and Gel batteries than it is in flooded batteries, but it's still pretty high.

AGM is a Low <4A and slow, as it's a deep cycle type too much current can fry the gel and break the mats down, the Mk4 uses an LN calcium-metal Battery yet another type

[Llynyfan]

I know my radio in the greenhouse has 2 aa. I bow to your knowledge which I just cant get my head around 😃

[Derek.w]

I wired my Yaris up for both CTEK 3.8 amp charger or solar charging.

Normal charge voltage 14.4 summer winter mode 5 degrees or lower 14.7

Float charge ither mode 13.6 volts

Solar output upto 22 volts Battery pulls this down have not fitted a solar controller.

[Dala]

[MikeSh]

48 minutes ago, Llynyfan said:

I know my radio in the greenhouse has 2 aa. I bow to your knowledge which I just cant get my head around 😃

All batteries are - ultimately - consumables. When they're done, they're done, like oil and filters.

In the overall costs of running a car for a few years a new 12V Battery is a blip.

It letting you down because it wasn't changed out when it should have been (because the AA or some other 'experts' said it was OK) is another level of annoying. Personal choice whether you want to pay now or gamble for a bit more life (Battery life that is 🙂 )

[Mikw]

6 hours ago, Roy124 said:

 

Sue, yes it's still a problem.  Thursday to Monday is a very short period for failure.  Usual questions - has it happened before - yes, lock down, which leaves the other question. 

How much had you driven in the days before Thursday? 

In my 8 day case I think it was its first failure and it had been driven for 3 hours before being garaged. 

 

That would be my question too.

How was it driven in the days before Thursday? If a couple of short journies then i can see that depleting it enough for it not to have enough charge after a few days of non use.

However, if it had been in "ready" mode for an hour then it shouldn't have had a problem being left for a few days.

 

Edit : just seen the reply, so it seems it's because it's run down a couple of times before it's probably damaged

[taff109]

On 8/6/2022 at 8:39 PM, Cyker said:

Annoyingly this problem has existed for ages; I remember it being an issue with the 1st gen Auris when that came out too. That said, I do think it's more down to the car not being used enough. Maybe they should have put a higher current DC-DC converter to charge it faster?

 

The newt shock is the very high cost of a vehicle 12v battery?

 

[flash22]

AGM batteries run £120 - £170, the New LN type are £70-110 there are only a few manufactures of these batteries, the main 2 being Yuasa and Panasonic

[Dala]

I hope this is not a toyota.

 

https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/

[Roy124]

Dala, not just batteries, they all do in including Toyota. 

You can buy a BMW with a heated steering wheel.  You either specify it when you buy it, or later for a subscription or one off fee. 

My Corolla was capable of but not enabled for Android Auto. 

We know that wiring looms are common but the plugins are extras. 

In the Tesla Battery case, the full price (profit) might be unaffordable for some.  Why forego a sale because its too expensive or profit when someone can pay more?

[Dala]

I 

I meant the information that the manufacturer can reduce the Battery capacity in this way.  Can't he do it remotely?  What else can he do?  What do we not know about?  Can't it destroy the 12v car Battery sooner?  Get users to shop more often?

  Quote

[Parts-King]

Manufacturers often over engineer a product and you can "purchase" an upgrade in one way or another. For instance, they often make a car at say 150 BHP, but also another souped up version at 180 BHP, the only difference is the mapping of the engine ECU, but they sell the car for considerably more but it is basically the same car 

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Dala said:

I 

I meant the information that the manufacturer can reduce the battery capacity in this way.  Can't he do it remotely?  What else can he do?  What do we not know about?  Can't it destroy the 12v car battery sooner?  Get users to shop more often?

  Quote

No that's just Tesla limiting the use of the traction Battery behind a paywall, nothing to do with the 12v - They used to sell P60s with P90 Battery packs, but artificially limit them to sell them at a lower price point, with an option for the owner to 'upgrade' to a P90 by paying the extra few thousand difference later.

It's one of many reasons why I try to avoid always-connected cars, and why I'd never buy a Tesla, as they are bringing the frankly disgusting business practices of the software world to cars, and everyone that buys one of their cars only has themselves to blame when such practices become so widespread they're defacto acceptable.

One of the most awful ones is their full self driving package, which is 'licensed', so it only applies to the driver of that car - If you sell the car and they find out, they remotely disable it! This is also what happened to the Battery in that article, as they fit a bigger battery to the car than it was specced for, but forgot to limit it from 90 to 60kWh, until it came in for a service. Instead of just being a good company and letting it go, they limited it and tried to extort more money out of the new owner. They consistently treat their customers like this as soon as they step out of the boundaries they want to keep them in. Absolutely disgusting company.

It's because of them that BMW have tried this sickening subscription service for things like a heated steering wheel to see if they can get away with it.

The 12v battery isn't something anyone could limit 'remotely'; I don't think anyone has even thought of that as it's so nonsensical. The closest thing I know of that is german cars, where a new 12v battery needs to be coded to the car to work properly, otherwise lots of car functions don't work properly, but that requires a garage visit to do anyway.

Thankfully Toyota don't seem to have achieved this level of awfulness yet - The only subscription services they have are for on-line stuff and stuff that needs regular updates, which is at least reasonable, unlike BMW's monthly subscription for a fixed heated steering wheel!!!

(If this becomes a common practice, I really hope everyone just buys the base-spec car and hacks all the features on for free!)

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

 

(If this becomes a common practice, I really hope everyone just buys the base-spec car and hacks all the features on for free!)

 

And avoids franchised dealers less they override the hack. 

What about Toyota Smart Connect?  By all accounts the Satnav doesn't work if you are not connected.  I think Smart Connect is free for 4 years? 

What happens after that?  With Touch 2 Go you can continue to use it; your choice to update. 

 

[Cyker]

That's the rub... I guarantee Toyota won't keep the servers for all that stuff on-line forever so don't get used to having it in the long term.

Anything that relies on 'The Cloud' is only temporary.

It's why I wasn't too broken up about not having SatNav in the Mk4 - I'd much rather use AA/ACP as even if those go away you can still use the device.

The other problem we're going to run into is the 3Gpocalypse - A lot of cars use 3G to connect to the internet, but 3G is being turned off soon and no manufacturer will offer an update for older cars so they will permanently loose their cell connections!

[isnsiie]

Toyota  service finally charge me £160  including VAT for replacing the Battery. They quoted £180 in the beginning. 

[Dala]

16 minutes ago, isnsiie said:

Toyota  service finally charge me £160  including VAT for replacing the battery. They quoted £180 in the beginning. 

Yuasa HJ-S34B20L-A or another ?

https://www.countybattery.co.uk/images/companies/1/HJ-S34B20L-A.pdf?1536313603283

add:

sorry , I found it late - Yaris 2016

[Derek.w]

Thats Battery wont fit new model Yaris MK4 if you look at the base no lugs to hold it down.

Look at silver calcinm by Yuasa HSB202 Part no YB5202 45AH 440 volts

You need a EFB type with lugs around base.

Note MK 3 no lugs around base but Battery post are opposite polarity.

[Dala]

great solution from hyundai 

[Roy124]

And Kia I am told

[Dala]

yes also KIA

 

[Derek.w]

I fitted a Battery Monitor plus a ctek charge option that at least I am not using in the summer

and a 20 watt solar panel without a solar controller but with a 4 amp blocking diode.

[Cyker]

Toyota need to steal this idea!!!