HEV or PHEV? More to it than just economy?

[Centaur]

I recently suffered a vehicle breakdown and was given a Rav4 HEV as a loan car to get me home.  I had it for a few days and was able to try it for the long motorway journey home (400+miles) and a mixture of urban and rural local driving.  I had been concerned that the petrol engine would be thirsty on the motorway but was very impressed with the 45mpg that it achieved on the way home.  Very short (less than 2 miles) journeys on cold mornings seemed less exceptional, as the petrol motor initially started up straight away, but appeared to still get mid-40s mpg at milder times of the day when it would start in EV mode.  Over 50mpg was achievable on rural runs too, so I was smitten with the economy.  I think that it was Excel spec, so it had most of the available equipment and it was nice to drive and had good passenger and boot space.

Coincidentally, a friend has just had a test drive of a PHEV and recommended that I try one before making any decisions.  Most of my local driving at home usually only covers a few miles and so would be mostly covered by the EV range but I also spend much of my time 200 miles away, where I would have no access to charging.  I therefore felt that the small savings that I would achieve by running around in EV mode at home wouldn't wouldn't really justify buying the PHEV.  However, having read through many of the posts on the forum and elsewhere, it seems that there is more to the choice than economy alone.  The PHEV is obviously quicker, although the HEV is no slouch, but some have said that it is simply a nicer, quieter drive also.

I would, therefore, be interested to know what sort of mpg a PHEV is likely to get both on the motorway once the EV range has expired and in general driving with and without charging.  Further, I would welcome rather more subjective views on how the two cars compare to drive, how quiet they are etc.

Thank you in advance!

[ernieb]

Mark, this all depends of your driving style and the weather conditions.  In the summer I typically got well into the 50's for EV range and at 65mph indicated on the M1 48miles.  In the winter that drops dependant of temperture under similar driving conditions to very high 30's/low 40's. Once the EV has been used there is still 30% of the traction Battery remaining reserved by the cars systems to give you the full spec. Once I'm in HEV mode I expect to get high 50's summer to high 40's winter on average.  Again this depends on how you want to drive the car if you want to use the full beans then this numbers go out the window.  These are averages and I've seen much better results on some days, low to mid 60's mpg.

The PHEV is better by far than my previous Subaru XV which struggled to get to mid 30's at the very best low 40's mpg. 

The inability to charge the car limits it's worth and you might be better with an HEV but if you do a lot of local mileage and can charge the car even from a 240v granny cable, supplied, then it's a great car to have and drive.

Someone else asked this question recently and there is a long discussion on the subject.

[Flatcoat]

I cannot comment too much on relative economy between the HEV and PHEV however there is no doubt the PHEV is quieter and smoother. The PHEV is also much quicker. I echo Erin’s comments - It depends in part the type of usage you have for the car. 

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Centaur said:

was very impressed with the 45mpg that it achieved on the way home.  Very short (less than 2 miles) journeys on cold mornings seemed less exceptional

You were going too fast ... 🙂 ... you should be able to get 47 / 48 mpg on the motorway at an indicated 70 mph. And, yes, the economy figures for "very short (less than 2 miles) journeys on cold mornings" are pretty rubbish but then account for a very small part of your overall mileage. WLTP figures are realistic at around 47 mpg but as ever will vary depending on your journey profile and "driving style".

If you didn't charge it all the PHEV wouldn't be able to match the HEV for economy - the PHEV is heavier and has a more powerful front electric motor to tempt you to "use energy faster". That said, if you deployed power 'gently' it won't be a lot worse than the HEV though it is difficult to get any reliable comparisons - e.g. a head to head under test conditions.

However, if you can afford the difference and charge the PHEV regularly it will win every time - 50 miles EV range is a decent amount of fuel saved "every trip" ...

[Roy124]

"The main difference is that the Battery is bigger, allowing a PHEV to drive much further on electric power alone. The battery's size means it can't be recharged by the car as it drives along like a regular hybrid. Instead, just like a fully electric car, you have to plug in a PHEV in order to recharge the Battery."

Is this true? I believe the PHEV recharges in the same way as HEV when braking or descending.  Can its ICE also recharge? 

[TonyHSD]

25 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

"The main difference is that the battery is bigger, allowing a PHEV to drive much further on electric power alone. The battery's size means it can't be recharged by the car as it drives along like a regular hybrid. Instead, just like a fully electric car, you have to plug in a PHEV in order to recharge the battery."

Is this true? I believe the PHEV recharges in the same way as HEV when braking or descending.  Can its ICE also recharge? 

Hi, yes phev are similar to hev but not exactly the same and not only batteries sizes are different but few more things and specifically the charging port, on board charger, the HAVAC system, in general it is more complicated car, obviously it is faster and offer some full ev experience. The biggest negative of all is that the phev has two plugs 🔌+⛽️ and so you need to think about two of them to recharge and to refill and in many cases people does prefer to go for the easier one after first weeks of excitement and then stop recharging and use them as regular hybrids and so you actually just ferrying around extra load but not getting the extra benefit, my point is that phev are exceptionally suitable for specific group of people where self charging hybrids suits everyone and all you need is a petrol. For driving experience can not comment. Both cars are good choice. If you more about the ev side of the car then it is also a good idea to consider bz4x since this is actually a polished rav4 on Battery power only., it looks cool and promising. 🔋👍

[philip42h]

54 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

"The main difference is that the battery is bigger, allowing a PHEV to drive much further on electric power alone. The battery's size means it can't be recharged by the car as it drives along like a regular hybrid. Instead, just like a fully electric car, you have to plug in a PHEV in order to recharge the battery."

Is this true? I believe the PHEV recharges in the same way as HEV when braking or descending.  Can its ICE also recharge? 

Where did you get this statement from? It sounds like the sort of 'tosh' written in some of the car magazines ... 😄

Both the PHEV and the HEV have the characteristics of all "mild hybrids" in that they use regenerative braking to recover some of the energy available as the car slows down. Motors MG2 and MG3 (AWD cars) provide this capability.

Both the PHEV and the HEV are "self-charging hybrids" in that they can use the ICE to drive MG1 to generate electricity and thus charge the traction Battery. It would appear that some / many car reviewers don't understand this bit.

The PHEV also allows the driver to plug-in and charge the traction Battery and this is the principal difference between a PHEV and a HEV.

[ernieb]

The traction Battery can be charged from the ICE but of course this is not an economical option in my view. Why would you as the ICE is still going to drive the wheels via the motors and then have to charge the Battery on top.

[philip42h]

9 minutes ago, ernieb said:

The traction battery can be charged from the ICE but of course this is not an economical option in my view. Why would you as the ICE is still going to drive the wheels via the motors and then have to charge the battery on top.

Quite so Ernie ... but when you've used up the charge you've added from the mains, a PHEV will have to switch to HEV mode in order to maintain charge level and performance.

I look at it this way:

• The HEV is just a hybrid vehicle - a good one but all motive power ultimately comes from burning petrol in the ICE.
• The PHEV acts as a BEV (i.e. an almost pure Battery electric vehicle) for as long as there is surplus charge in the traction Battery. Once the charge level drops below a certain threshold it becomes a hybrid vehicle (pretty much the same as the HEV).

The HEV isn't capable of behaving like a BEV; the PHEV is ...

[Toomanytoys]

See my thread and the "500 mile" one on here..  both go a bit "off piste"

From what little I have learnt in my research, I would seriously consider the PHEV if you can charge at home and have lots of shorter trips locally..  of course I didn't look at the price difference from self charge to PHEV as it was going to be a company car and the BIK was off he scale for the self charging..

Just my opinion tho.. 

 

[Roy124]

Philip, regarding my quote, quite right I can't be bothered finding it's source. 

Reassuring that PHEV is rather more than an ICE dragging and empty Battery about, which was the impression from the media. 

[ColinB]

One downside for me would be the extra £335 tax that you have to pay for the first 5 years, which would negate any savings on fuel for me. The extra purchase cost would be partially covered by the increased secondary value in years to come. 

If you are a company car driver this would totally change the equation due to the much reduced company car tax. 

[Roy124]

Colin for the RAV true. 

[Flatcoat]

The PHEV Battery in the RAV does not go flat. It retains 30% charge for giving a power boost when required. So you are never dragging around the weight of a flat Battery. This may not apply to other PHEV’s, it didn’t on my Volvo PHEV. After almost 4 weeks and 700 miles I am absolutely sold on the PHEV. However the PHEV range specs do not mirror the HEV specs so be mindful that options such as PVM and headlamp washers are not available on the PHEV. On the other hand ventilated seats and HUD is. 

[Cyker]

Yeah the 'premium' tax is a bit of a kick in the proverbials - They set it for ICE cars, but it's too low for EVs and hybrids. At least they saw some common sense and changed it to no longer apply to EVs and zero-emission vehicles when they realized almost every EV would command that £335 tax!, but I feel it should be at least reduced for PHEVs too because they naturally cost more, nothing premium about them!

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

"The main difference is that the battery is bigger, allowing a PHEV to drive much further on electric power alone. The battery's size means it can't be recharged by the car as it drives along like a regular hybrid. Instead, just like a fully electric car, you have to plug in a PHEV in order to recharge the battery."

Is this true? I believe the PHEV recharges in the same way as HEV when braking or descending.  Can its ICE also recharge? 

So, this is a bit weird, but you have to pretend the PHEVs have TWO batteries (They don't any more, instead using software to sortof partition the Battery into two virtual batteries as it were, but they actually used to have two seperate batteries in the first PHEV versions!)

There is a small traction Battery, like you get in the normal hybrids, which the car cyclically charges and discharges just like it does in the normal hybrids, then there is the big honking EV Battery which is charged up from the plug and can power the car purely on electricity.

When you run down the 'big battery, the car will still charge the 'small battery' as you drive and brake just like it does in a normal hybrid, but will not charge the 'big battery', i.e. you can't charge the whole battery all the way up to 100% on ICE alone, only up to the limit of the 'little battery'.

 

[AJones]

56 minutes ago, Cyker said:

When you run down the 'big battery, the car will still charge the 'small battery' as you drive and brake just like it does in a normal hybrid, but will not charge the 'big battery', i.e. you can't charge the whole battery all the way up to 100% on ICE alone, only up to the limit of the 'little battery'.

The Toyota PHEVs can be put into Charge mode where they will recharge the Battery to full using the engine. 

But while they can do it, there's not much benefit to doing so because it's running the engine harder or for longer burning more petrol to charge the Battery which emits more carbon and pollution than plugging it in and charging from the grid, and costs more.

One situation it could be of use is if the Battery is empty and you are driving into a town or city, running the Charge mode outside urban areas, to allow you to drive on electric when you enter an urban area where air quality is more of a concern.

[Red_Corolla]

Do not forget that charging at home and running short range on 100% electrical energy still incurs a cost, and that cost is significant, especially with the impending hike in consumer energy prices taken into account.

I don't know if many PHEV owners are measuring this properly and I am not saying it costs nearly as much as buying petrol, but the gap is going to narrow later in the year, for sure. There really ought to be an initiative such as offering a separate meter & tariff for vehicle charging points, a bit like having Economy 7 but just for the vehicle and not time restricted.

[AJones]

11 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

Do not forget that charging at home and running short range on 100% electrical energy still incurs a cost, and that cost is significant, especially with the impending hike in consumer energy prices taken into account.

There's EV tariffs offering off-peak rates below 10p/kWh, some still as low at 5p/kWh, assuming around 3 miles per kWh, that's around 3p/mile, a lot less than petrol. I wouldn't say that is a significant cost, certainly not compared to the purchase cost of a car.

11 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

There really ought to be an initiative such as offering a separate meter & tariff for vehicle charging points, a bit like having Economy 7 but just for the vehicle and not time restricted.

The low cost off-peak rates reflect that electricity costs are lower over-night, if you extended them to cover more of the day including periods when electricity is more costly, then the discount would need to fall. 

[Hayzee]

11 minutes ago, AJones said:

There's EV tariffs offering off-peak rates below 10p/kWh, some still as low at 5p/kWh, assuming around 3 miles per kWh, that's around 3p/mile, a lot less than petrol. I wouldn't say that is a significant cost, certainly not compared to the purchase cost of a car.

The low cost off-peak rates reflect that electricity costs are lower over-night, if you extended them to cover more of the day including periods when electricity is more costly, then the discount would need to fall. 

These low overnight rates don't appear to be available anymore to new contracts. For instance Octopus Energy EV charging rate for new contracts is 25p/kWh so when all the fixed rates start to unravel the costs per EV mile are looking less attractive.

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, AJones said:

The Toyota PHEVs can be put into Charge mode where they will recharge the battery to full using the engine. 

But while they can do it, there's not much benefit to doing so because it's running the engine harder or for longer burning more petrol to charge the battery which emits more carbon and pollution than plugging it in and charging from the grid, and costs more.

One situation it could be of use is if the battery is empty and you are driving into a town or city, running the Charge mode outside urban areas, to allow you to drive on electric when you enter an urban area where air quality is more of a concern.

Ahh thanks, I keep forgetting that is a thing on the newer models!!

 

[RavLab]

As others have mentioned, BIK changes the equation dramatically in favour of the PHEV.

However if you are a private buyer, one thing to consider (that not many here have an issue with) is boot space. While the HEV and PHEV seem to have the same external and passenger cabin dimensions, the PHEV has circa 70L less of boot space. Depending on your needs, that may (or not) sway you to the HEV. I have a Labrador I currently take in a crate in the boot, and I don’t think the crate would fit height-wise in a smaller boot. 
Of course if you get a dog divider and barrier, then even the PHEV would work. 

[Cyker]

33 minutes ago, Hayzee said:

These low overnight rates don't appear to be available anymore to new contracts. For instance Octopus Energy EV charging rate for new contracts is 25p/kWh so when all the fixed rates start to unravel the costs per EV mile are looking less attractive.

I just looked on their site and they still offer the 7.5p rate, albeit only for 4 hours between midnight and 4am.

However their standard rate varies - They say 14p on their site, but if I punch in my postcode it's 30p which is nearly double what I am paying at the moment  

Charging your car at the 30p rate would be nearly as expensive as public charging...!

[Nick72]

Power. Rocket ship power.

And if you're a company car driver only 7pc BiK tax vs the 40 or 45pc wage tax.

My two main reasons. And needed AWD SUV sized car.

 

Then for some...

Environment. If you do a lot of short trips. Minimise local pollution in terms of particulates, various gases. Thinking, kids and asthma. And CO2 if you get your electric through a renewable provider. Not much TBH but it adds up in terms of cultural momentum.

[ZZYGY]

It would be great if someone could do an objective cost benefit analysis of the various UK HEV/PHEV Models to include purchase price, petrol price, KWH cost, Tax benefits V Private owners etc. I used to be an MS Excel wiz but am too rusty now. There must be a some sweet spots in the data that would give us a pointer to the best option.

FWIW I went for an HEV Excel FWD with a metallic paint option. £35K OTR @ 0% which suits me given the trade-in value etc.. The nearest PHEV was +7.5K which I could not justify as I have had 4WD for 3 years and never been off road and now even less likely to.

I live in the Highlands and have driven all all over Scotland over 40 years and have never been stuck due to the absence of 4WD. Worst I had was an E Class MB where I forgot there was an option to disable the traction control and had the whole office laughing at my attempts to park in the iced up carpark. 

I bought my current 4WD (GLC)with the intention of towing boats and caravans but sold the boat and lost the will for caravanning so FWD Hybrid seems sensible but I think time will tell, but who knows where all these markets will go.

[Centaur]

Thank you for all the swift replies to my earlier post and especially for the initial replies from Ernie, Adrian and Philip, which got to the heart of what I was asking.  I apologise if it is thought that I am raising old issues but I spent some time going back through earlier posts but I didn't find anything that seemed to tackle these specific questions.

With regard to economy, what it appears to come down to is, if I can somehow get to a charge point whilst I am away, I would be able to run about for much of the time on EV power alone whilst at home and away but I would still run out of electrical juice on the 200 mile trip each way there and back.  The running back and forth, though, may make up between a quarter and a third of my overall annual mileage, so it would be useful to know if there is likely to be any significant difference in economy on these trips with either the HEV or PHEV.  As Philip pointed out, the first 50 or so miles may be 'free' with the PHEV and, if the remaining 150 HEV miles are largely similar with either car, the PHEV would surely win every time?  Is this a reasonable assumption or will the heavier PHEV start to lose out to the lighter HEV?

Secondly, as I referred to in the post's title, there appears to be more to it than just economy.  From the responses above, the PHEV is clearly a lot faster in the real world, although I have a relaxed driving style and found the HEV to be adequately fast even with four people on board and a boot crammed full of luggage, climbing equipment, rucksacks and other kit.  However, road and wind noise were more apparent than the engine, so the extra sound deadening of the PHEV is appealing and the ride was, for me, a touch on the firm side, so the supposedly better ride appeals too.  Again, is the PHEV significantly better than the HEV or are we only talking marginal differences?  To me, significant added refinement may be worth the extra cost of the PHEV irrespective of mpg differences.

Lastly (a bit of thread drift), I don't think that I am alone in wondering why Toyota confuse things so much in terms of the Grades offered and the specification differences between Grades in the two models.  Personally, I would go for the Excel grade (for the comprehensive spec) and grey leather but these are not available in the PHEV but the Dynamic Premium then gets a few bits that the Excel doesn't.  Odd but there we are!