Good news (sort of) for PHEV owners

[nlee]

It looks like the energy price cap review announced yesterday proposes to put a lot of the increase on the standing charge rather than the unit rate for electricity. I guess that's a tactical decision for those that have moved from fossil fuels to electricity, like EVs or heat pumps. It's probably not a popular decision with those that have invested heavily in solar though.

Basically, everyone will fund the bulk of the increase regardless of usage.

On a standard price capped tariff the approx cost per mile for EV journeys will increase from around 6.9p to 9.4p which still retains a gap with the cost of petrol.

* These are average max rates across all regions. OFGEM are supposedly going to publish region by region over the next few days. Price caps only apply to standard variable tariffs.

[philip42h]

On topic first: that is indeed "good news (sort of)" for users of higher amounts of electricity - including EV owners. Whether that is such good news for those living on the bread line with the electricity use at a low level is another question entirely - but this is not a political forum. (And that profiling suits me just fine)

Of on a slight tangent: if I've done my arithmetic correctly, your are basing your calculation on around on the PHEV using 332 Wh/mile. How do you get that figure?

Following discussions on another thread the other day, I attempted to work out how efficient the PHEV was in EV mode. Based on reports from PHEV drivers on this forum, 30% of the traction Battery is 'reserved' for HEV use, while 70% can be dedicated to EV mode motoring. 70% of 18.1 kWh is 12.67 kWh. The WLTP EV range of the PHEV is given as 46.47 miles. This gives an efficiency of 273 Wh/mile which is rather better than you are estimating / using.

It matters not, and my figure is purely 'theorectical' ...

[nlee]

33 minutes ago, philip42h said:

On topic first: that is indeed "good news (sort of)" for users of higher amounts of electricity - including EV owners. Whether that is such good news for those living on the bread line with the electricity use at a low level is another question entirely - but this is not a political forum. (And that profiling suits me just fine)

Of on a slight tangent: if I've done my arithmetic correctly, your are basing your calculation on around on the PHEV using 332 Wh/mile. How do you get that figure?

Following discussions on another thread the other day, I attempted to work out how efficient the PHEV was in EV mode. Based on reports from PHEV drivers on this forum, 30% of the traction battery is 'reserved' for HEV use, while 70% can be dedicated to EV mode motoring. 70% of 18.1 kWh is 12.67 kWh. The WLTP EV range of the PHEV is given as 46.47 miles. This gives an efficiency of 273 Wh/mile which is rather better than you are estimating / using.

It matters not, and my figure is purely 'theorectical' ...

I based the calculation on 3.0 miles/kWh. I get that from the consumption reading on the dash when in EV mode, which I reset occasionally. I was getting 3.3 miles/kWh back in early autumn when I got the car. I'm currently on 2.9 miles/kWh so used a flat 3.0.

To get the 273 Wh/mile would need 3.66kwh/mile. I guess that's possible in summer but I haven't had that yet.

[ernieb]

My years average is 3.3kw/mile but that will be PHEV and HEV mode, the recovered energy not just me charging the car.

if I take my EV distance, overall mileage, and overall mpg then do the calculations my ‘real’ mpg of the ICE alone, no EV or energy recovered etc., is 39mpg.

[Flatcoat]

39mpg is Not shabby for a diesel let  alone a petrol SUV weighing almost 2 tonnes. 

[Nick72]

These numbers hurt. It could have been worst but God, what are some folk going to do?

Think most of us have been there coppering up a few quid to put 3 gallons in the tank! But a few quid is like 2 litres these days.

Has anyone got home solar or other renewable solutions? My wall box has a connector for solar. The same company produces solar systems including inverters. But living in the NW we only get the sun 3 days a year.

[philip42h]

5 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

39mpg is Not shabby for a diesel let  alone a petrol SUV weighing almost 2 tonnes. 

My 2013 4.4 D-CAT Auto returned 37.7 mpg over 62,000 miles. I'm currently on 45.4 mpg with the HEV but suspect it could do better - I must get out more ... 🙂

[nlee]

6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

These numbers hurt. It could have been worst but God, what are some folk going to do?

Think most of us have been there coppering up a few quid to put 3 gallons in the tank! But a few quid is like 2 litres these days.

Has anyone got home solar or other renewable solutions? My wall box has a connector for solar. The same company produces solar systems including inverters. But living in the NW we only get the sun 3 days a year.

Haven't got solar, my roof is 90deg in the wrong direction, but considered a storage Battery of around 12kwh and charging during EV tariff window. It still doesn't add up for me though until Battery costs come down. Even with these increases, it's still around 8 year payback.

This is not a joyous time for solar owners though. Even if they use no power from the grid, the standing charge will cost them £75 more a year for the pleasure of having a meter. I think feed-in rates have just increased with some suppliers though so that might offset some of the pain.

[nlee]

2 minutes ago, philip42h said:

My 2013 4.4 D-CAT Auto returned 37.7 mpg over 62,000 miles. I'm currently on 45.4 mpg with the HEV but suspect it could do better - I must get out more ... 🙂

I think what Ernie is saying is just ICE. He's taken all EV mileage off including hybrid EV miles. Not plugging in and using as a hybrid would give more than that.

Using the same calculation, I'm getting 37 mpg but in reality without EV range left, I'm getting high 40's sometimes low 50s.

[nlee]

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

On topic first: that is indeed "good news (sort of)" for users of higher amounts of electricity - including EV owners. Whether that is such good news for those living on the bread line with the electricity use at a low level is another question entirely - but this is not a political forum. (And that profiling suits me just fine)

Of on a slight tangent: if I've done my arithmetic correctly, your are basing your calculation on around on the PHEV using 332 Wh/mile. How do you get that figure?

Following discussions on another thread the other day, I attempted to work out how efficient the PHEV was in EV mode. Based on reports from PHEV drivers on this forum, 30% of the traction battery is 'reserved' for HEV use, while 70% can be dedicated to EV mode motoring. 70% of 18.1 kWh is 12.67 kWh. The WLTP EV range of the PHEV is given as 46.47 miles. This gives an efficiency of 273 Wh/mile which is rather better than you are estimating / using.

It matters not, and my figure is purely 'theorectical' ...

You might have hit on something here. I effectively did the brim to brim method for Battery the other day.

I started with a full Battery, did a round trip to the office, all on EV. Round trip was 19 miles. I plugged in that night and put 5.6kwh into the Battery to full capacity. That works out at 3.39 miles/kWh. I reset the consumption when I set off and at the end of the journey, it registered 2.9miles/kWh on the dash. So it seems the consumption is being over estimated on the dash reading. I'm going to try this again a few times and see if I get similar results.

I suppose the other alternative is my wall charger is under-reading!

[philip42h]

9 minutes ago, nlee said:

I think what Ernie is saying is just ICE. He's taken all EV mileage off including hybrid EV miles. Not plugging in and using as a hybrid would give more than that.

Using the same calculation, I'm getting 37 mpg but in reality without EV range left, I'm getting high 40's sometimes low 50s.

Yes, indeed ... and Adrian said that wasn't to shabby for a diesel - so I reported what my diesel RAV managed. And then noted what I get from the HEV - to compare with Ernie's PHEV results. I'd have assumed the PHEV figures would be closer to my HEV figures ...

[ernieb]

Nigel, that’s exactly what I’ve done and I think as Adrian said it’s not bad for the size and weight of the car. It says something for the engine design and optimisation of the energy recovery systems. I did not average anything like that on my last car, Subaru XV.  Like you when I take into account running in HEV mode, including recovered energy etc., it get between mid 40’s to low 50’s. 

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Has anyone got home solar or other renewable solutions? My wall box has a connector for solar. The same company produces solar systems including inverters. But living in the NW we only get the sun 3 days a year.

1 hour ago, nlee said:

Haven't got solar, my roof is 90deg in the wrong direction, but considered a storage battery of around 12kwh and charging during EV tariff window. It still doesn't add up for me though until battery costs come down. Even with these increases, it's still around 8 year payback.

This is not a joyous time for solar owners though. Even if they use no power from the grid, the standing charge will cost them £75 more a year for the pleasure of having a meter. I think feed-in rates have just increased with some suppliers though so that might offset some of the pain.

I put in solar under the FIT scheme as it was in 2012. My micro generation enterprise gets paid for every kWh I generate, the scheme assumes that I export half of it and pays me for that, and I get free electricity if I can use what I generate. It repaid the initial investment over about 7 years and now returns a small income - the inverter is expected to have a lifetime of around 10 years ... 😉

Back then there were no viable Battery storage options - believe me I looked - and the joy of solar is that it generates power in the summer when you don't need it which develops some weird behaviours like running the dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier on sunny days. I also have spare power diverted to the immersion heater which saves on running the boiler just to get hot water.

One of the really dumb things they did was limit domestic systems to a maximum of 3kW - I've got roof space for more. As things stand I generate around 3.5 MWh per year in mid Wales (where it never ever rains, honest), You should be OK up north ...

Anyhow, it requires light rather than direct sun and will generate happily on a sunny day in winter but direction and angles are important.

[Cyker]

I think that was just to access the grants/tariffs/whatever they are called - A few-doors-down neighbour's one expired and now his roof is literally full of solar panels now as, without the grant, there's no advantage to having less panels. I think they're at 8-10kW now!

It sucks that there's no gov incentives to install them now - Getting paid for every kW you generated whether you used it or not was really nice, but now it's just what you save on bills as the money you get for feeding excess back into the grid is a pittance (If you get paid at all!), and that'll take a while to recoup (Although, with these energy price hikes maybe it'll make more sense now...!)

 

[Centaur]

Interesting about the very good EV range.  Incidentally, what is the likely total range from a PHEV, if you went on one long trip with only one full charge at the start?

[Flatcoat]

17 minutes ago, Centaur said:

Interesting about the very good EV range.  Incidentally, what is the likely total range from a PHEV, if you went on one long trip with only one full charge at the start?

How long is a piece of string? Too many variables but my guesstimate is between 300-600 miles. 

[philip42h]

The maximum range for an HEV is greater than 500 miles - I fill the tank and it tells me that the range to 'empty' is 500+ miles. The PHEV's Battery should add another 50 miles, so, theoretically, the PHEV should manage 550+ miles. Both cars have a 55l fuel tank. But the real range is far more dependent on road conditions and how the car is driven ...

[ernieb]

550 miles is typical.

[Nick72]

Generally getting circa 500 miles on the PHEV to reserve. But I understand theres another 2 gallons after that to true empty?

[ernieb]

7 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Generally getting circa 500 miles on the PHEV to reserve. But I understand theres another 2 gallons after that to true empty?

I've certainly noticed what I'd say is a non linear fuel gauge it seems to fall after the 50% make and then runs towards to empty mark very quickly.  I've estimated as Nick's comment that there might be another couple of gallons left?

[Flatcoat]

I understand there is a fuel reserve of about 2 gallons. This is to prevent running out of petrol which could in turn cause system problems if forced to use the Battery that also might be running low on charge. I have also read in the good old US of A there is a class action against Toyota because the fuel tank can only be filled up with 10 gallons when it actually holds over 12….. you couldn’t make it up. 

[Broadway One]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:33 AM, nlee said:

On a standard price capped tariff the approx cost per mile for EV journeys will increase from around 6.9p to 9.4p which still retains a gap with the cost of petrol.

Mornin' all.....couldn't resist this aside:   

Ball park EV related exercise associated with my daily commute pre retirement.

Using the Toyota PHEV from my previous address at the bungalow. 

Home charging using off peak electricity (12.30am to 4.0am) @ 5p per unit from 13amp socket in garage.

Based on 15kwh per. charge, home to office journey 35mls. 75p tops.

Work place nil charge, therefore office home zero cost. 

Same trip from my new address within apartment block, charge from pedestal EV point (3hrs @ £2).

Home to office journey 35mls. £6.

Work place nil charge & return home etc. as above.

Considerable increased cost plus inconvenience of charging outdoors.....no thanks!

Barry Wright, Lancashire.

 

 

 

[ernieb]

6 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

I understand there is a fuel reserve of about 2 gallons. This is to prevent running out of petrol which could in turn cause system problems if forced to use the battery that also might be running low on charge. I have also read in the good old US of A there is a class action against Toyota because the fuel tank can only be filled up with 10 gallons when it actually holds over 12….. you couldn’t make it up. 

That interesting in particular because the US gallons are smaller than UK?

[Flatcoat]

To be honest my figures are approximate and not sure if the article was quoting US or imperial measures. However you get the gist…… 

[Flatcoat]

To be honest my figures are approximate and not sure if the article was quoting US or imperial measures. However you get the gist……