Road Tax Problem

[Roger_N]

15 minutes ago, Hybrid21 said:

Thing is you guys have saved more than the increased road tax.

You've saved on the new car price increases, which could be around £3000.

You've saved by getting probably around another £3000 for your trade in as second hand car prices have went through the roof.

So that's around £6000 savings 👍 

You're still in a win situation even with increase in your road tax. 

Iain

Yes Iain you are right and it's not just the new cars that benefit it has a knock on effect.

The thing is if I were looking now with the price rise on the Excel HEV, it would have pushed me towards the PHEV the Dynamic is only around £2000 more and would suit my needs better.

Also this excess on the VED is now catching more new cars each year, and considering Hybrids are more expensive you are paying more for helping reduce emissions add to this the fact there has been no increase to the point at which it starts, it will not be to long before most cars will be caught by it. so it's just a stealth tax and has nothing to do with any environmental concerns.

[robo1]

It’s cannot be an environment tax. I’m driving around in a 11 month old Dynamic paying £145 VD a year. Someone driving away from the garage today, with the same car, will be paying the higher rate from year 2.

[Catlover]

Cancel it, get the PHEV you want and get a sleep tonight.

[Firecycle]

3 minutes ago, robo1 said:

It’s cannot be an environment tax. I’m driving around in a 11 month old Dynamic paying £145 VD a year. Someone driving away from the garage today, with the same car, will be paying the higher rate from year 2.

Exactly an unfair system that has not kept pace with inflation

[Roger_N]

7 minutes ago, robo1 said:

It’s cannot be an environment tax. I’m driving around in a 11 month old Dynamic paying £145 VD a year. Someone driving away from the garage today, with the same car, will be paying the higher rate from year 2.

It was brought in to try and deter people from buying higher polluting cars (read larger and bigger engines), It is in this context it was an environmental tax.

[Roger_N]

11 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Cancel it, get the PHEV you want and get a sleep tonight.

I will look at changing it next year when the higher tax kicks in, unless there are reasons to make me keep it, I will loose less money that way if the current situation with car prices continues.

 

[nlee]

It's a crazy situation and I sympathise. However, it really comes about due to the current madness of new car shortages and long lead times rather the any particular fault. There is always a risk that list prices change and specs vary as well as trade-in valuations when you have to wait so long. I presume your dealer works on the basis that the price you're paying doesn't change so you won't be too upset. But, they shouldn't assume.

I agree that you should be given the option to cancel the order, without losing deposit, if changes outside your control occur, and I'm sure you could do that. However, where does that get you? To the back of the queue waiting another 6-9 months and paying the new increased price? And who's to say unfavorable changes won't happen again. It seems a lose-lose really.

Life is full of compromises. I compromised, only very slightly by not having a factory fitted tow bar, to get a car that was available sooner. Although I had already accepted mine would attract the higher duty and budgeted for it in the overall package. The chance of reducing the trade-in value was more in my mind.

[robo1]

12 minutes ago, Roger_N said:

It was brought in to try and deter people from buying higher polluting cars (read larger and bigger engines), It is in this context it was an environmental tax.

Would be better if they returned it to being based on emissions as clearly cars of the same value don’t have the same green credentials. Few years back son in law had a diesel Octavia estate and VED was £0. Could never understand that one either.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Whatever the perceived merits or faults of the current Vehicle Tax rates system for new cars, it has been in place since 1st April 2017, and we have what we have. So the trigger point of the additional payments for vehicles with a list price in excess of £40,000 should be more widely known by buyers, salespeople, etc.

Only the first year of vehicle tax is based on emissions. The payments from year 2 are flat rates based on fuel type.

The additional payments for vehicles with a list price over £40,000 weren't based on environmental concerns. For example, originally owners of EV's with a list price of over £40,000 had to pay the additional payments, but this was changed in the 2020 budget.

See: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/car-tax-explained-aqnPf4D3c26Y

As regards keeping pace with inflation, most forms of taxation don't do this.

 

[Roger_N]

4 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

As regards keeping pace with inflation, most forms of taxation don't do this.

Yes unless it suits the government (to their advantage).

[ernieb]

It was originally priced at £50K and dropped I guess because they were not achieving the revenue they had predicted.. The drop from £50K to £40K was a big reduction in my mind and sadly when I bought my PHEV I thought it was at £50K, it was a big surprise but I was committed by the time it finally dawned on me.

I also paid the original price which was significantly reduced a couple of months later, However, that said I still like this car and right now would not know what to buy as an alternative.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Roger_N said:

Yes unless it suits the government (to their advantage).

Whatever - it is what it is and no comments on these forums are going to change that.

[Yugguy1970]

I think this problem is being exacerbated by the unusually long gaps between order and delivery.

[Roger_N]

47 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Whatever - it is what it is and no comments on these forums are going to change that.

Mike

I fully agree nothing will change but it is frustrating.

 

[ianharding]

1 hour ago, nlee said:

It's a crazy situation and I sympathise. However, it really comes about due to the current madness of new car shortages and long lead times rather the any particular fault. There is always a risk that list prices change and specs vary as well as trade-in valuations when you have to wait so long. I presume your dealer works on the basis that the price you're paying doesn't change so you won't be too upset. But, they shouldn't assume.

I agree that you should be given the option to cancel the order, without losing deposit, if changes outside your control occur, and I'm sure you could do that. However, where does that get you? To the back of the queue waiting another 6-9 months and paying the new increased price? And who's to say unfavorable changes won't happen again. It seems a lose-lose really.

Life is full of compromises. I compromised, only very slightly by not having a factory fitted tow bar, to get a car that was available sooner. Although I had already accepted mine would attract the higher duty and budgeted for it in the overall package. The chance of reducing the trade-in value was more in my mind.

Exactly. I tend to keep cars a good while - my current car is 8 years old, bought from new. My intention, assuming I like the RAV 4 after a few months' ownership, would be to keep it rather than sell early. It's one of the reasons I went for Toyota, with its good reputation and long warranty. I will now have to reconsider.

[Roger_N]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

It was originally priced at £50K and dropped I guess because they were not achieving the revenue they had predicted.. The drop from £50K to £40K was a big reduction in my mind and sadly when I bought my PHEV I thought it was at £50K, it was a big surprise but I was committed by the time it finally dawned on me.

I also paid the original price which was significantly reduced a couple of months later, However, that said I still like this car and right now would not know what to buy as an alternative.

Ernie

I really feel for you to see that much change in the value must hurt, you have a much better attitude to this than me.

[Red_Corolla]

5 hours ago, robo1 said:

Would be better if they returned it to being based on emissions as clearly cars of the same value don’t have the same green credentials. Few years back son in law had a diesel Octavia estate and VED was £0. Could never understand that one either.

The problem with that system was it never took into account the fact that how much you pollute is more about how much you drive rather than how much your vehicle is putting out each mile. We actually have a fair tax for that already, it's called fuel duty, but I guess it doesn't put enough in the coffers all by itself.

I could use my father-in-law as an example. He owns a 20 year old Suzuki 4WD, which was one of the early vehicles under that emissions based system. He hardly drives any more, maybe 1000m per year at most. So, his net contribution to pollution is an enormous amount less than the average owner of a new hybrid or electric vehicle. Just the process of manufacturing one would create way more than he will within the remainder of his motoring career. In spite of this, he still has to pay several hundred pounds each year in VED or else give up the vehicle (his choice). Because there was no 5 year reprieve and its a tax system applied for the entire life of the vehicle, it now represents about one quarter of the value. I'm not sure that's entirely fair, but were talking about life and taxation policies, things that have never been fair since time immemorial.

[ernieb]

5 hours ago, Roger_N said:

Ernie

I really feel for you to see that much change in the value must hurt, you have a much better attitude to this than me.

I’m long enough in the tooth to stop pushing against a door that will never be opened, Mod edit happens as they say, time to get on with life.

[Stopeter44]

36 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

Because there was no 5 year reprieve and its a tax system applied for the entire life of the vehicle, it now represents about one quarter of the value. I'm not sure that's entirely fair, but we're talking about life and taxation policies, things that have never been fair since time immemorial.

That's a can of worms we'd best not visit !

[Red_Corolla]

2 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

That's a can of worms we'd best not visit !

On that, we can agree! 😁

[Flatcoat]

Taxation is extortion by any other name. 

[Cyker]

Perhaps, but the alternative is far worse. If we didn't have tax we wouldn't have roads, schools, police, fire brigade, the NHS, an army etc.., and everything would be controlled by private companies. Imagine if Apple Roads or Weinstein Schools or Trump Medical were a thing (Well, I joke but this is the future we're heading for right now. Turns out Neal Stephenson isn't just an author, but a prophet of the future...!).

Just to clarify, my issue is not so much the extra cost of the premium tax; It's where it's been suddenly applied to people who explicitly compromised on their vehicle choice to avoid it, where they would have otherwise picked a different vehicle or spec, and through no fault of their own but due to delays or miscommunication from the dealer.

The cost itself isn't super high compared to e.g. the old tax system - I know several people who're paying over £500 a year on tax because their car was classed under the old CO2-based system and are in the high bands.

And it goes to benefit society, as in Us (Well, some of it at least... we really need to vote in more honest, compassionate and competent leaders...)

 

[Flatcoat]

Capitalism has done far more to lift people out of poverty than any state funded institutions. Apple funded roads wouldn’t be full of potholes. If you paid your income tax as an annual single payment and see the figures on the cheque as does the self employed you might think differently about the amount of tax you pay. 

[Cyker]

They probably wouldn't, but they'd not go everywhere and you'd have to pay to use them. Imagine the dartford crossing, but every stretch of road. With annual price hikes. And you can only use Apple-approved cars on them. And all that only lets you drive on the Apple road, but not the Microsoft or Google ones.

I've already looked at how much of my money goes out as tax as a thought experiment in the past, and when I compare it with what it would cost to do all this stuff privately it seems like a bargain frankly.

I think people badly underestimate how much some things cost. And without everyone contributing, many things cease to become possible - Schools for instance; Why would you pay for schools if you don't have kids? So school fees shoot up dramatically and only the richest can afford to send their kids to school.

Doctors? I haven't been to a doctor in ages, or called on the services of the police or fire brigade - Why should I pay for them?

Suddenly they cease to exist or only serve the rich because only the rich can afford them.

The medical system in the USA is a great example of how things can go - Have you seen how much they charge for a doctors appointment, or an ambulance, or a bed, or a midwife? A friend of mine over there had a kid a few years ago and it is scary how much you have to pay. If he didn't have medical insurance from his employer I don't know he would even have paid for the full cost of it rather than just the excess/deductible.

It is one of the worries I have about the NHS here - We take it for granted and the government has been taking advantage of that, saying it's underperforming and dismantling it slowly so people don't kick up a fuss, and the way they are slowly privatising state schools turning them into 'academies'. We'll never get them back again once they've been sold off, but we never learn - It's happened with power, communications, transport, already - next is medical and education. Once they are all in the private sector we'll have nothing, except when they fail, then suddenly we get corpse to resurrect.

Yuck that got all political. Car forum isn't really the place for this... But I do think we need to look and see what we have before we give it away, as it is a mistake we seem to keep making over and over again...