Electricity Cost Vs Petrol Cost for PHEV

[Nick72]

8 hours ago, ernieb said:

Mine is similar to Nick’s, but overall since I bought the car the average is 3.3 miles/kWh. Overall I think this is a pretty good figure.

I think that's bang on Ernie. I get 3 in winter and currently 3.6 when hot. Averaging 3.3.

3.3 X the accessible Battery of about 14.4 to 14.8kWhr (I can't recall the exact number given the bottom end no go and top end no go for the battery) or thereabouts is a total of about 48 miles if we average the two. Slightly better than the Toyota claim.

[Cyker]

Don't believe everything you're told about lithium cell recycling - Lead acid batteries are relatively easy to recycle as all the parts can be separated easily and they're able to recycled 90+% of all the materials without major outlay, but lithium cell recycling is one of the most bald-faced lies I've ever seen.

At the moment, most lithium cells past their prime are just re-used in lower-impact applications, usually some sort of static storage, but strictly speaking this is reuse, not recycling (Arguably this is better than recycling as it is far less resource-intensive to do).

Ones that are too far gone to be reused were, up until fairly recently, just being buried in landfill!! Utterly ridiculous! I think because of new regs, they can't get away with this so easily so they're either shipped to a country where they don't care about such rules, or stored in warehouses waiting for...

... attempts at *actually* recycling lithium cells; There are ways to recover the cell materials by deconstructing them, but this don't scale well. The current industrial process just involves grinding the cells up into bashed up bits then either pyrolizing them or using lots of chemicals, to smelt/dissolve out what they want to keep, which in most cases is the nickel and manganese - Bizarrely the lithium often gets chucked away because the amount they can recover is so small it's not worth it to them! Currently the process is really not economically viable, and the only reason it hasn't collapsed is because of subsidies and external funding.

There was some back and forth about this in another thread, and it seems they are refining the techniques so they don't need such vast resources for a tiny return, but to my knowledge lithium cell recycling is still very much in its infancy, and certainly nowhere near the 90+% of lead acid batteries!)

[Hornet3D]

15 hours ago, AJones said:

For the last 100 years every car has been fitted with a lead-acid battery and typically goes through several in its lifetime, they are filled with a mix of neurotoxic heavy metals and sulphuric acid. Nobody worries about those, or the batteries in hybrids because they are recycled, just as the recycling capacity is being created for lithium ion batteries. 

Chargers and charging cables are simple electrical equipment, no different from other electric equipment in the home or commercial premises. Similar materials, similar recyclability, nothing to worry about. Unless you worry about the impact of buying a home appliance or an extension cable, what is there go be concerned about?

Compared to the risks from climate change, the problems from batteries and the chargers are pretty trivial.

All true except with electric vehicles there are more charges and cables being produced and energy is used to produce them.  It is the same old story and was one of the criticisms of the buy back scheme for old cars in that much of the pollution is  created in the manufacture of the car.  Swapping a working car where much of the pollution damage has already occurred for a new one with all the extra pollution is not very rational. 

Taking the standpoint that the impact is minimal, I agree but on that basis as the UK only accounts to about 3-4% of the global pollutants we could take the view that what we do is irrelevant when compared to other countries.  

From a personal point of view I have very little in the game as my driving days are numbered as is life in general so I could take the view, hang it all it is someone else's problem.  For some reason I don't but maybe that is just me.

 

[Lawnmowerman]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:40 PM, Bill65 said:

Bear in mind that many of the public EV chargers are still free or heavily subsidised by the local council, at least up here in Scotland.  For the last month I have paid £12 for 184.6kWh of electricity which at 3 miles per kWh is around 550 miles. Won't get far on £12 of petrol nowadays.

ChargePlace Scotland needs to update their "petrol equivalent" metrics in their app from last year's values 😉

Used ChargePlace Scotland for the first time in view of your post - nearest charger 3 miles away.

20p per KwH as opposed to my cheapest home tariff of 29p per KwH - go figure.

[Cyker]

Ahh, now that there is a good reason to get an EV that can be used to send power the other way!!! Drive to the cheap charger, charge the car up, go home, plug it in to power the fridge etc. on cheaper tariff electricity! Genius!  

I must admit it has surprised me the prices of EV charging doesn't seem to have shot up as quickly as it has for us domestic users. I mean, they were already higher than domestic power in most cases to begin with, average being about 30-ish and the most ridiculous I know of being 70p/kWh, but they don't seem to have changed, certainly not like petrol has! Maybe the charging companies have longer term contracts with fixed rates or something???

Speaking of petrol, has anyone noticed petrol is coming down? Could this be the light at the end of the tunnel??? I fuelled up at that A406 Texaco at 1.799, but the supermarkets have finally caught up, dropping from ~1.869 to 1.789!!

 

 

[icp44]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:09 PM, philip42h said:

Which equates to an average (summer time?) EV range of around 45.6 miles? (18.1 kWh x 70% x 3.6 miles). That's pretty much what it says on the tin. 🙂

Edit: and having just read your second post ... an average 52 mile EV range at 3.6 miles per kWh would consume 14.44 kWh - which is around 80% of your 18.1 kWh traction battery. That would put the reserve down to 20% which is perfectly plausible but contrary to what other PHEVies have claimed.

Hi All, We have a Rav4 phev  and we regularly get 52 miles from a full charge during the summer months with the dash readout of 3.2 miles per kwh. We are off to France soon and it will be interesting to see how much the 600 miles journey costs with a full charge to start and then recharging the Battery in recharge mode and then switching back to the Battery. 

[Bill65]

2 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

Used ChargePlace Scotland for the first time in view of your post - nearest charger 3 miles away.

20p per KwH as opposed to my cheapest home tariff of 29p per KwH - go figure.

We have a bank of 8 ChargePlace Scotland 22kW chargers in the local sports centre across the road all totally free. 

I'm usually up at 7am drive the 200yds to the EV chargers then walk back home for breakfast and a shower, car fully topped up by 9am.

[AJones]

8 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

All true except with electric vehicles there are more charges and cables being produced and energy is used to produce them. 

The energy it takes to manufacture EV chargers and items like charging cables is next to nothing compared to the energy wasted through the inefficiency of the internal combustion engines throughout the life of a vehicle. 

8 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

It is the same old story and was one of the criticisms of the buy back scheme for old cars in that much of the pollution is  created in the manufacture of the car.  Swapping a working car where much of the pollution damage has already occurred for a new one with all the extra pollution is not very rational. 

It isn't the same old story because nobody is proposing a buy-back or scrappage scheme for old cars, only that new cars need to be as efficient and as low carbon as possible, which means that by 2030 they need to have some electric range (the amount not yet set) and by 2035 need to be fully electric. Over time those existing older cars naturally wear out and get scrapped, getting replaced by the more efficient cars which work their way through the used car market.

8 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

Taking the standpoint that the impact is minimal, I agree but on that basis as the UK only accounts to about 3-4% of the global pollutants we could take the view that what we do is irrelevant when compared to other countries.  

From a personal point of view I have very little in the game as my driving days are numbered as is life in general so I could take the view, hang it all it is someone else's problem.  For some reason I don't but maybe that is just me.

The impact from cars is not minimal, it's very significant, but the impact from things like chargers and charging cables is minimal, its very small compared to the impact of the energy used to propel the car along, the difference in efficiency and emissions between a car using a combustion engine and an EV. 

[Mike2222]

15 hours ago, icp44 said:

We are off to France soon and it will be interesting to see how much the 600 miles journey costs with a full charge to start and then recharging the battery in recharge mode and then switching back to the battery. 

Hi, good luck with your journey, tho if I understand your intentions correctly, I would advise against using the petrol engine to charge the Battery ("recharge mode") solely for the sake of then propelling the car on electric motors, as this is inherently inefficient, especially at higher motorway speeds. Unless you are mandated to do so by local French laws, ie clean air laws within local city boundaries etc. (speaking of, have you applied for and recieved a 'Crit Air' sticker for the Rav? If so, is it straight forward?) 

 

You'd be much better off just letting the car sort itself in hybrid mode once electric range is depleted. Unless you specifically want to save some electricity for manoeuvring on&off ferry/eurostar/etc, in which case you can force it into hybrid mode once down to 5-10miles of indicated electric range (note - the car will not necessarily keep the electric purely 'safe' for later use, as it will be used in process of HEV mode, albeit very slowly, so I'd want to save more than 2-3miles if this is part of the plan). You should get over 45mpg in hybrid mode on a long journey. 

 

If there's time before you're due to go, you may want to sign up to the octopus 'electric juice' app, then charge opportunistically at the local 'hypermarche' instead. They post you a single rfid card to use at certain chargepoints, and the map on the app suggests it works with a range of European chargepoint providers. I haven't used it yet myself, but very curious to see if it works on the continent. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mike2222
Clarified point about battery use in hev mode

[Hornet3D]

15 hours ago, AJones said:

The energy it takes to manufacture EV chargers and items like charging cables is next to nothing compared to the energy wasted through the inefficiency of the internal combustion engines throughout the life of a vehicle. 

It isn't the same old story because nobody is proposing a buy-back or scrappage scheme for old cars, only that new cars need to be as efficient and as low carbon as possible, which means that by 2030 they need to have some electric range (the amount not yet set) and by 2035 need to be fully electric. Over time those existing older cars naturally wear out and get scrapped, getting replaced by the more efficient cars which work their way through the used car market.

The impact from cars is not minimal, it's very significant, but the impact from things like chargers and charging cables is minimal, its very small compared to the impact of the energy used to propel the car along, the difference in efficiency and emissions between a car using a combustion engine and an EV. 

I respect your views.

[Crustyoldavensis]

15 hours ago, AJones said:

The energy it takes to manufacture EV chargers and items like charging cables is next to nothing compared to the energy wasted through the inefficiency of the internal combustion engines throughout the life of a vehicle. 

It isn't the same old story because nobody is proposing a buy-back or scrappage scheme for old cars, only that new cars need to be as efficient and as low carbon as possible, which means that by 2030 they need to have some electric range (the amount not yet set) and by 2035 need to be fully electric. Over time those existing older cars naturally wear out and get scrapped, getting replaced by the more efficient cars which work their way through the used car market.

The impact from cars is not minimal, it's very significant, but the impact from things like chargers and charging cables is minimal, its very small compared to the impact of the energy used to propel the car along, the difference in efficiency and emissions between a car using a combustion engine and an EV. 

But if you are truly thinking about your own personal impact upon the environment then rescuing an end of life vehicle is better than buying a brand new all singing all dancing EV.

[icp44]

11 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

Hi, good luck with your journey, tho if I understand your intentions correctly, I would advise against using the petrol engine to charge the battery ("recharge mode") solely for the sake of then propelling the car on electric motors, as this is inherently inefficient, especially at higher motorway speeds. Unless you are mandated to do so by local French laws, ie clean air laws within local city boundaries etc. (speaking of, have you applied for and recieved a 'Crit Air' sticker for the Rav? If so, is it straight forward?) 

 

You'd be much better off just letting the car sort itself in hybrid mode once electric range is depleted. Unless you specifically want to save some electricity for manoeuvring on&off ferry/eurostar/etc, in which case you can force it into hybrid mode once down to 5-10miles of indicated electric range (note - the car will not necessarily keep the electric purely 'safe' for later use, as it will be used in process of HEV mode, albeit very slowly, so I'd want to save more than 2-3miles if this is part of the plan). You should get over 45mpg in hybrid mode on a long journey. 

 

If there's time before you're due to go, you may want to sign up to the octopus 'electric juice' app, then charge opportunistically at the local 'hypermarche' instead. They post you a single rfid card to use at certain chargepoints, and the map on the app suggests it works with a range of European chargepoint providers. I haven't used it yet myself, but very curious to see if it works on the continent. 

Many thanks for the advice, i have joined Electric Juice and will let you know how we do on mpg.

[Phil E]

Going back to Adam’s original post I looked into relative costs of electric vs petrol a few weeks ago

In my own experience, a full charge is usually a maximum of 14kWh which at 28p/kWh works out at £3.92. I get around 45 miles per charge (often more) which works out at 9 pence/mile

I used a figure of £1.70/litre for petrol which is 1.70 x 4.54 = £7.72 per gallon.  I also get around 45mpg when running purely as a HEV which works out at 17 pence/mile

So the electricity unit rate has to virtually double before running as an EV becomes more expensive than petrol 

 

 

[Hornet3D]

16 minutes ago, Phil E said:

Going back to Adam’s original post I looked into relative costs of electric vs petrol a few weeks ago

In my own experience, a full charge is usually a maximum of 14kWh which at 28p/kWh works out at £3.92. I get around 45 miles per charge (often more) which works out at 9 pence/mile

I used a figure of £1.70/litre for petrol which is 1.70 x 4.54 = £7.72 per gallon.  I also get around 45mpg when running purely as a HEV which works out at 17 pence/mile

So the electricity unit rate has to virtually double before running as an EV becomes more expensive than petrol 

 

 

The problem is that electricity is expected to double and keep increasing in price according to some reports.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Phil E said:

Going back to Adam’s original post I looked into relative costs of electric vs petrol a few weeks ago

In my own experience, a full charge is usually a maximum of 14kWh which at 28p/kWh works out at £3.92. I get around 45 miles per charge (often more) which works out at 9 pence/mile

I used a figure of £1.70/litre for petrol which is 1.70 x 4.54 = £7.72 per gallon.  I also get around 45mpg when running purely as a HEV which works out at 17 pence/mile

So the electricity unit rate has to virtually double before running as an EV becomes more expensive than petrol 

I am on the last few weeks of my current rate. If I switch to a standard variable today it would be 29.58p / kWh; if I switch to a long term fixed (2 year) it would be 59.81p / kWh. That would work out at 18.6p per mile by your calculation.

I guess you have the option to switch back to petrol as and when things get that bad - though we've no idea quite where the petrol price will get to. The outlook isn't too great for any of us ... 😞

[nlee]

12 hours ago, philip42h said:

I am on the last few weeks of my current rate. If I switch to a standard variable today it would be 29.58p / kWh; if I switch to a long term fixed (2 year) it would be 59.81p / kWh. That would work out at 18.6p per mile by your calculation.

I guess you have the option to switch back to petrol as and when things get that bad - though we've no idea quite where the petrol price will get to. The outlook isn't too great for any of us ... 😞

I agree it will be a grim winter. However, I can't understand why EV owners would pay those sort of rates. Although high daytime users are reluctant to switch to EV tariffs because of a marginally higher daytime rate, as the gap gets wider between the two rates, it will make more sense. Effectively, EV drivers will be pushed towards time of use tariffs, which is probably the right thing to do. I would imagine most charge overnight anyway, so why not take advantage of cheaper rates. I currently pay 5p off peak 27p peak (fixed for 12 months). If I signed up today, it would be 7.5p/42p, again fixed for 12 months. I'm expecting when mine needs renewing in Nov that it will be 10p and around 55p (which will be somewhere close to whatever the OFGEM cap is. But when I charge my car from empty to full, that's more than 50% of my use that day, and that's just a PHEV, so better to have it at 10p than 55p, and still only 3p/mile.

[philip42h]

11 minutes ago, nlee said:

I currently pay 5p off peak 27p peak (fixed for 12 months). If I signed up today, it would be 7.5p/42p, again fixed for 12 months.

You must be with Octopus - which seems to be one of the few suppliers still offering new EV tariffs. As far as I can tell, from limited research, most suppliers have given up on EV tariffs for now ...

And you are perfectly correct - if your EV charging is a significant proportion of your electricity usage, and you can get hold of an attractive EV off-peak rate then "you'd be mad" not to go for that option. As things evolve and there are increasingly more EVs on the grid I can't see those benefits lasting - enjoy them while you can ... 😉

[Donrald]

….and I am to take delivery of a new petrol car, no electricity, in a couple of week’s time. I made the decision on the basis that in 10 years time the electric market should have sorted itself out and I also need to think whether I will still be driving then! Mind you it was a bold move for Toyota, when there is a ban on anything other than electric from 2030, to produce a new petrol only Aygo X. I suspect they have rightly calculated it will sell well.

[Cyker]

What was bold was making a small agile rally homolgated 260HP AWD performance hatchback when everyone else is pivoting to gigantic land-barge EVs!!