Steering issue with 2006 City Bug.

[DerekHa]

Wonder if anyone here can advise on the above.

My partner has a Peugeot C1 which although it is 16 years old has only 45k on the clock and is still in good overall condition.

Sometime ago I drove the vehicle for the first time and noticed that the steering seemed off! The steering would not self centre to the 12 o'clock position when travelling at speed. Not exactly stiff but the steering wheel tended to want to stay at whichever spot it was at when cornering or in bends.

Nothing obviously wrong so took the vehicle to a local specialist tyre fitters with the proper alignment equipment as I thought the tracking etc was likely the cause. Didn't use the services of the quick tyre people! After the check it was apparent the tracking was out by a good amount although there was no excessive tyre wear, the vehicle only does a few miles a week. Very helpful and knowledgable staff adjusted the tracking having explained first that all three Aygo based vehicles can only be tracked as all the other steering geometry, caster, camber,  and the rear wheels are all non adjustable.

Drove home and there was a definate improvement with the steering, no longer what I would describe as being notchy. Though improved the car wouldn't self centre between the 11 and 1 o'clock positions, have to keep adjusting the steering a little to keep a straight line. The print out from the wheel alignment shows that there is quite a difference in the caster angles of the front wheels, I now gather caster is the magic angle that causes the self centring and not tracking. The printout shows the drivers side caster is green and within spec but the passenger side caster is amber at over 12 degrees. One other thing of note, though I'm told it wouldn't affect the self centring, is that the rear passenger wheel camber is also in the amber at 1 degree 37 mins.

Went back to the tyre centre and was advised that the tracking, the only adjustable, wouldn't cause the symptoms I described, and that the cost of investigating the cause would likely be too prohibitive given the age/value of the car.

Later took to vehicle to a friendly mechanic who test drove the car and had a look underneath from his inspection pit who stated the steering wasn't unusual and couldn't see anything obvious from below.

Have been advised that the car could have been kerbed in the past. Still curious as to the cause jacked up under the bottom engine mount with the front wheels off the ground. Noticed that both rear control arm bushes do not appear to be square onto the underbody mountings, in fact the large mounting bolts appear to be good deal off being perpendicular. I loosened off both bolts to see if I could achieve any movement of the control arms but there was nothing either but did find that the drivers side bush dropped around a 1/4 of a cup of water on the drive when first undone, this was during the long dry spell recently, not sure why the water would be there.

Have photographs of the rear bushes on both sides, the bushes look to be off centre to me. Can anyone advise if this is normal or not? Would consider fitting new control arms if I knew the bushes had worn or flexed too much.

I will try and attach the images, haven't done so here before so not sure it will work.

 

[flash22]

Caster on the front left is way off, camber on the rear is poor

Caster - top mount, shock or bent lower arm

Rear camber - poorly fitted rear hub or a cheap hub or bent rear beam - you can shim out the rear hub

 

IMHO its been up a curb hard, and bent the lower arm

Citroën C1

Peugeot 107/108

Toyota Aygo

95% the same under the skin

[DerekHa]

Thanks for the response Bob.

Regarding your comments are you going off the wheel alignment report or had you noticed anything suspect in the images of the control arm mountings underbody?

Know the delights of changing a rear hub on one of these, previously posted about that but the car had over 100k miles. Was told that there's no adjustment but had toyed with the idea of inserting washers between the hub flange and the mounting on the rear beam axle, which is what I think your suggesting, I wasn't sure it would be safe. Problem I envisage is judging how much to pack out the top of the hub relative to the bottom of the hub bearing? The passenger side rear is out by 1 degree compared with the otherside. Any idea's?

Appreciate it could be a hub thats been badly fitted or even a bent beam axle, the bearing doesn't appear to be noisey at all. Tackling the rear wheel hub is the easier option to try first, I think.

Any idea what effect the camber being out on that rear wheel would have on steering/handling?

As for the front wheel is there any way to check for a bent control arm? Have already tried measuring on the car as best I could to compare left and right but found no real difference. Likewise with that front shock and top mount is there anyway to determine if it's bent or even the top mount has gone without totally dismantling?

 

[Derek.w]

If it not a mot failure I just live with it but give youself plenty of time to check before next mot in case it degrades.

[fordulike]

I've always found my 2013 Aygo and also my wife's previous car, a 2005 Aygo, to have sticky steering around the centre.

At first, I thought they had problems with the steering, but I think it's just a characteristic of Aygos. Probably some feel more sticky/dead than others.

I've been driving mine for so long now, that I don't notice the steering quirk.

[DerekHa]

Another Derek!

Am sure this isn't an MOT issue as my friendly mechanic, also my MOT tester, couldn't identify anything off when he test drove it and a did a proper check from his inspection pit. Have been told to "live with it prior" to this by the wheel alignment garage but things like this become an itch I can't resist scratching but appreciate what your saying, my partner would agree with you too!

[DerekHa]

Thanks David,

I know what your saying, my mechanic said he's had similar sitiations before and despite a lot of money being thrown at a vehicle has still been unable to cure that sticky steering feeling.

[Puglet]

As fordulike says a few owners over the years mentioned issues around self centering steering, some cars seem better than others. Also have you checked for any DTC codes, as known some have had hidden codes which have affected/pointed to problem with electric power steering.

[flash22]

You can get camber shims these a specific thickness, no issues as long as you torque the bolts to factory specs

 

front caster, something is off that is a lot of caster movement, do any of the suspension parts look new ? Are the strut nuts/bolts tight top and bottom do the springs look good

[DerekHa]

Hi Steve,

I've heard/read similar things about self centring myself.

As for DTC codes,  I do have a basic code reader but it only reads and clears the engine and related codes unfortunately.

Think I've read somewhere that the steering control for the power steering or similar can need resetting but I can't do that myself.

                                             ....................................................................................................

Hi Bob,

I wasn't aware that camber shims where available! They sound a more professional way of altering the camber than my Heath Robinson thoughts. Will be searching for something online now.

The car is with me now so tomorrow will make a start on removing that rear hub, weather permitting. Only ever worked on one of these before, last year, and it took me days of hard graft to get the hub out of the axle but hopefully this one will be easier, lower miles and I'm wiser now on what works I hope.

I have been under the front of the car and nothing, especially on the passenger side, caught my eye. It all looks original and nothing out of place I could see. The only thing that I thought was out/odd was how the rear bushes look on the both lower control arms, the heavy bolts don't look central to where the bolt hole must be. Do they look normal to your eye?

I will check the nuts and bolts on the strut for tighteness as you suggest but think they will be ok as there are no unusual bumps knolcks or other noises coming from the car and apart from what I've mentioned the steering seems reasonable. Will be having another look over the coming days!

As for the condition of the springs, they're what you'd expect on a 16 year old car there's some corrosion on all the springs but nothing is broken or bent. These have had advisory's on MOT's going back a number of years and also the roll bar drop link condition but again only advisory's. Will take some photo's of the front suspension if they'd they help.

[DerekHa]

Hi again Bob,

Have come across these on line, at that Bay place,

2x Rear Axle Wheel Camber Alignment 1.0 Adjustment Shims Kit - 5.71533K. Are these the sort of thing you refer to as camber shims?

Seems they can also be used to alter toe on the rear axle as well.

[flash22]

Yes, that's one type

[DerekHa]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for confirming that. I take it there are others then, trouble is that I could only find those specific for the Aygo/C1 /107. Could you point me towards others you seem to be aware of, perhaps I could message you directly Steve.

Bit of an update now:-

Did the rear wheel hub this morning. Wanted to make sure it could be removed easily to shim. Much easier task than the one I tackled last year and employed the same method that I used on that. Couple of hours saw the bearing hub out and  seperated from the back plate/beam axle and back on the car. Rain stopped play just after midday, so tomorrow morning to take a good look at the front before the next lot of showers.

Did check the beam axle, it's straight and undamaged though a touch corroded. Also checked the rear spring which appeared to be in reasonable condition, still good paint apart from corrosion on the first inch or so of the top and bottom of the coil.

 

[DerekHa]

So an update.

Opted to shim out the top of the rear wheel bearing with washers, cheapskate I know. Purchased a bag of ten M10 x 1mm flat washers locally and fitted them no problem. Car test drove ok, thought the steering seemed at little less wooden if thats the right description. Checked the washer thickness, 1.4mm, after the event I know!

A hunt in the shed found some old zinc plated washers the right outer diameter and thickness but had to drill them out to 10mm. 1mm almost bang on when finished. Had the rear wheel and bearing off again and swapped the new washers for my  home grown ones. All back together in short order and the wheel visually looks to have less camber now. Car test drives fine, still feels better than it was.

Took advantage of todays sun, jacked the front up and both wheels off. First thing I noticed was quite a distinct creeking noise coming mainly from the offside top mount when the steering is moved lock to lock, more so when over to the left Visually couldn't find much that was shouting "look at me".

Did notice a very small old dent in the nearside trailing egde of the front web of the subframe close to the front control arm mounting. More corrosion on the nearside subframe and control arm especially around the front bush. Think thats usual given the annual dose of engine oil the drivers side subframe gets on an oil change. Also the rear rubber mounts on the control arm seemed to have lots of tiny veertical splits when pried up and down.

Tried comparing various measurements taken on the drivers side with the those from the passenger side and everything was within a millimetre or two.

Wondering if the front subframe could have taken a knock when the car was being being reversed? This would fit with the dent I found and could have shunted the offside subframe further forward than the drivers side.  Would also fit with the wheel alignment print out. Would creeking top mounts indicate any wear or damage and need changing?

[flash22]

The top mount is effectively a bush and bearing in one, that is your most likely cause of the caster issue

The part isn't too expensive, it's just the work involved, compressing the spring is the dodgy bit

KYB or febi

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234585841545

Febi Reference

https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.com/en/article/febi/37771?make=Citroën

 

 

[CablesD11]

On 9/6/2022 at 6:07 PM, DerekHa said:

Wonder if anyone here can advise on the above.

My partner has a Peugeot C1 which although it is 16 years old has only 45k on the clock and is still in good overall condition.

Sometime ago I drove the vehicle for the first time and noticed that the steering seemed off! The steering would not self centre to the 12 o'clock position when travelling at speed. Not exactly stiff but the steering wheel tended to want to stay at whichever spot it was at when cornering or in bends.

Nothing obviously wrong so took the vehicle to a local specialist tyre fitters with the proper alignment equipment as I thought the tracking etc was likely the cause. Didn't use the services of the quick tyre people! After the check it was apparent the tracking was out by a good amount although there was no excessive tyre wear, the vehicle only does a few miles a week. Very helpful and knowledgable staff adjusted the tracking having explained first that all three Aygo based vehicles can only be tracked as all the other steering geometry, caster, camber,  and the rear wheels are all non adjustable.

Drove home and there was a definate improvement with the steering, no longer what I would describe as being notchy. Though improved the car wouldn't self centre between the 11 and 1 o'clock positions, have to keep adjusting the steering a little to keep a straight line. The print out from the wheel alignment shows that there is quite a difference in the caster angles of the front wheels, I now gather caster is the magic angle that causes the self centring and not tracking. The printout shows the drivers side caster is green and within spec but the passenger side caster is amber at over 12 degrees. One other thing of note, though I'm told it wouldn't affect the self centring, is that the rear passenger wheel camber is also in the amber at 1 degree 37 mins.

Went back to the tyre centre and was advised that the tracking, the only adjustable, wouldn't cause the symptoms I described, and that the cost of investigating the cause would likely be too prohibitive given the age/value of the car.

Later took to vehicle to a friendly mechanic who test drove the car and had a look underneath from his inspection pit who stated the steering wasn't unusual and couldn't see anything obvious from below.

Have been advised that the car could have been kerbed in the past. Still curious as to the cause jacked up under the bottom engine mount with the front wheels off the ground. Noticed that both rear control arm bushes do not appear to be square onto the underbody mountings, in fact the large mounting bolts appear to be good deal off being perpendicular. I loosened off both bolts to see if I could achieve any movement of the control arms but there was nothing either but did find that the drivers side bush dropped around a 1/4 of a cup of water on the drive when first undone, this was during the long dry spell recently, not sure why the water would be there.

Have photographs of the rear bushes on both sides, the bushes look to be off centre to me. Can anyone advise if this is normal or not? Would consider fitting new control arms if I knew the bushes had worn or flexed too much.

I will try and attach the images, haven't done so here before so not sure it will work.

 

Hi DerekHa

Your issue sounds exactly the same as the issue my sons C1 had. 

There's a stored DTC that needs cleared that's not allowing your steering column to read the wheel speed of the vehicle. 

Once the DTC is cleared your steering wheel should self centre again.

[DerekHa]

Hi Stephen,

Have been advised the steering could need a DTC code clearing.

As things stand at present the steering geometry on the front passenger side is definately out by a good amount even though the wheel aligners adjusted the tracking to be within spec. If you take a look at the before and after prints I posted you'll notice how correcting the tracking made the caster angle increase. Something mechanical is out.

After changing what parts are needed and another, hopefully successful, wheel alignment, if the steering doesn't feel right I'll get my friendly mechanic to check the codes for free, he's good like that.

                                    ...........................................................................................................................

 

Hi again Bob,

I noticed a few posts ago I suddenly referred you as Steve, my appologies!

Thanks for your input again, very greatful to have the benifit of your knowledge, extensive having read some of your other posts.

What you're saying makes sense and would account for skant evidence of anything obvious being the cause, the top mount/bearing being hidden from view both ontop and underneath.

Will replace the top mount/bearing in the very near future. Have replaced road springs in the past, still basic spring commpressors to hand and appreciate the care needed taking one off a strut. Hoping the compressors fit the C1 as they were bought for another vehicle.

Thanks for the links also Bob. Presume its best to replace left and right top mounts when doing this? Ideally would completely overall the suspension on both sides if money were no issue.

Will replace the drop links as they're both corroded/perished and caused advisories on past MOT's even though there's no excessive play.

As an aside my partner drove the car yesterday and commented the steering felt better now the rear camber has been "adjusted". Will have another alignment completed once the work is done, interested to see how much my washers moved the camber angle too. Bit of luck and there'll be no need to clear any DTC too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DerekHa]

Thought I'd post a couple of the photo's, of the many, I took while the front car was up with the wheels off.

I thought I could see a misalignment with the n/s front compared with the o/s. At the time I had set the steering wheel to the 12 o'clock position. Since looking through all the photo's I'd taken everytime I look at the two pictures it seems that the when viewing the n/s strut and drawing a line down the centre line towards the wheel axle it does not run as close to the axle centre as when the same comparision is made to the drivers side.

Anyone else see the same or is my eyes. I did my best to take the shoots from the same angle and distance on each side of the vehicle. Would this be consistant with a bad top mount?

Have ordered the top mounts with bearings and a full drop link kit  

 

.

 

                                             

[flash22]

As a rule of thumb, do suspension work as an axle pair

 

i have a health fear of spring compressors, there is a lot of energy in a compressed spring

[fordulike]

15 minutes ago, flash22 said:

As a rule of thumb, do suspension work as an axle pair

 

i have a health fear of spring compressors, there is a lot of energy in a compressed spring

I replaced the shocks on an Almera once and I agree, not a nice experience.

I leave stuff like that to garages these days. Just takes one slip of the compressors and it ain't gonna be pretty 😐

[DerekHa]

Hi Bob and David,

Doing this the same as brakes,  always do both sides! So I've ordered, top mounts/bearings and drop links as pairs. Deeper pockets, plus not having my own vehicle, and i'd be changing springs, shocks, control arms and drop links left and right. I know I may end up doing that as it isn't an exact science but my time costs nothing.

I have replaced springs in the past, a while back though, and do have a healthy respect for the forces involved with car springs and compressors Thanks for your warnings though!!👍 I can always chicken out and ask the chap better with the spanners anyway.🔧 May be a 2hr job for a fully equipped garage.

[Puglet]

Just a word of warning, hopefully your top strut nuts etc are in good condition as heard few owners had issues getting them loose/off due to corrosion and access. Good luck with the spannering hope all goes well.

[DerekHa]

Thank for the heads up on that Steve, hadn't considered it to be honest. 👍 From memory everything inside the engine compartment is clean with very little rust, might be different I know once I start! Will take a quick look tomorrow and get some wdforty on and around the upper and lower nuts in preparation.

[DerekHa]

Right everybody, back with an update.

Well they defeated me! Removed the wiper, plastic cover and metal skuttle to give best access having already dosed the 17mm top nuts with WD40. Some signs of being a bit rusty but seen far worse. Started on the n/s first at it's where things are out.

A large 17mm cranked ring spanner and repeated tries with a 6 hex allen key not having it. Noticed the allen key had started to twist after a while. Resorted to a torx key only to have this snap inside the damper shaft! Managed to drill the broken piece out with a carbide glass drill but the inside of the shaft was all chewed up afterwards.

Decided to have a go at the drivers strut, wouldn't budge again with the allan key even with a long tube attached. Applied penetrating oil instead of WD40 and still didn't move. Remembered I had a 1/2" Hex set so used the 6 in there with a rachet drive attached, oh it's moving! No such luck the Hex drive snapped just like the in the n/s one. So carbide drills out again. Only managed to remove half of the broken Hex before the drill broke. Gave up for the day!

A fresh day after some googling and decided to try a mole grip high up between the coil springs to stop them rotating. Not a hint of freeing off. Applied another pair of grips and tried with my breaker bar and a 17mm socket, still no joy as the damper shaft was still turning despite the grips being applied really tight! I gave up dejected!

So after more time on google and the tube have decided to invest in an impact wrench, found a 240v Makita one on the Bay, very well used and old but working, at the right price!

 

[flash22]

Pull the strut out of the car ?? You will not undo the top nut without compressing the spring

strut diagram

https://www.megazip.net/zapchasti-dlya-avtomobilej/toyota/aygo-38483/kgb10-56113/kgb10r-ahmrkw-919798/front-spring-shock-absorber-17856448