R4P... Seriously let me down

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

1 minute ago, Derek.w said:

A chain usually rattles a rubber timing belt just snaps without warning.

Of cours if you checked it you might detect cracking or worn teeth before it fails compleatly but that unlickly within a engine.

That’s what I love about my RAV4, one less thing to worry about. At least you get some warning with a chain !

[Cyker]

19 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

A rubber timing belt is a lot cheaper than chain & you do not need a tensioner or chain guides.

 

They're also smoother/quieter than chains, have less mass, are cheaper and easier to replace etc.

But they wear, and need to be checked and replaced regularly to avoid catastrophic engine damage, while a chain should last the life of the engine, if looked after (And not made by the french... I still can't get over those french engines that have chains with replacement intervals! Why not use a belt then!?).

That's the usual pros and cons of chains vs belts

But what does a wet belt bring to the table?! It just seems to take a dry belt and add the disadvantages of a chain but none of the advantages - It'll be more expensive as it will need to be made of a rubber that resists chemical attack from engine oil and dissolved acidic exhaust gasses, it'll be a massive PITA to replace because of the oil, and will need to be replaced regularly. I just don't get why you wouldn't pick a dry belt or a chain over it...!

Personally I much prefer chains on interference engines.

[forkingabout]

25 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

A chain usually rattles a rubber timing belt just snaps without warning.

Or in the case of the Purecrap the rubber degrades, particles break of, pollutes the oil system, blocks the VVT solenoids, brake vacuum pump & the oil pick up which in turn destroys the engine.

[ernieb]

13 hours ago, Hayzee said:

• 355LN2-MF Battery in my Prime. You Hybrid users get this one too? Says "add distilled water" on the label? | Toyota RAV4 Forums

See this link on the rav4world site which goes into detail of your Battery etc.,looks like a lithium glass Battery.

[ernieb]

13 hours ago, Hayzee said:

Ernie can you tell me which battery you have as I'd like to retrofit an AGM version?

Thanks

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

You're making me doubt mine now, I'll try to take a look today if it ever stops raining. ☔

[ernieb]

Just did a quick search and found a couple of explanations which suggest that essentially VRLA, SLA, AGM, MR batteries are all essentially the same type of Battery.

https://www.intercel.eu/frequently-asked-questions/what-does-vrla-agm-sla-and-mf-stand-for/

[nlee]

Mine (PHEV) is the same Battery as Colin's

Interesting that the little sight glass thing is red, which according to the label means the Battery needs charging. This is straight after my journey to work.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

Just did a quick search and found a couple of explanations which suggest that essentially VRLA, SLA, AGM, MR batteries are all essentially the same type of battery.

https://www.intercel.eu/frequently-asked-questions/what-does-vrla-agm-sla-and-mf-stand-for/

Which may be true(ish) - though I suspect that AGM really specifies the technology used to construct a Maintenance Free, Sealed Lead Acid Battery - but it seem quite clear that what Nigel has in his PHEV is none of the above! (And it does seem a little 'odd' to find such a Battery buried in the boot ... )

54 minutes ago, nlee said:

Mine (PHEV) is the same battery as Colin's

Interesting that the little sight glass thing is red, which according to the label means the battery needs charging. This is straight after my journey to work.

 

One other observation - the PHEV Battery appears to have the negative on the left (and the positive on the right) while the images I have seen for the HEV battery show the terminals positioned the other way around. This seems perfectly 'reasonable' since the boot layouts are unlikely to be the same but it would mean that we HEVies can't simply adopt a PHEV 55Ah battery to gain a little extra capacity.

[robo1]

This is the Battery fitted to my 21 Dynamic. Think terminals same way round but only 45 AmpHr. Blue dot

 

 

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

30 minutes ago, philip42h said:

Which may be true(ish) - though I suspect that AGM really specifies the technology used to construct a Maintenance Free, Sealed Lead Acid battery - but it seem quite clear that what Nigel has in his PHEV is none of the above! (And it does seem a little 'odd' to find such a battery buried in the boot ... )

 

One other observation - the PHEV battery appears to have the negative on the left (and the positive on the right) while the images I have seen for the HEV battery show the terminals positioned the other way around. This seems perfectly 'reasonable' since the boot layouts are unlikely to be the same but it would mean that we HEVies can't simply adopt a PHEV 55Ah battery to gain a little extra capacity.

Having spent 14years as a service manager in a Mobility shop I got to know a bit about Battery technology. There were two main types of batteries used for mobility scooters and power chairs and that’s AGM and GEL

AGM stands for Absorbed Glass Mat, SLA is Sealed lead acid and is commonly used abbreviation for all sealed lead batteries, ie no maintenance.

The AGM batteries are manufactured with a type of fibreglass mesh separators between the lead plates which has the Sulphuric acid soaked into it with just a small amount of free liquid in them. This makes the Battery safer if damaged as there is only a small amount of liquid to escape.

GEL batteries are exactly that, they have acid in the form of a gel instead of a liquid which again means they’re safer if damaged.

Mobility batteries aren’t suitable for cars as they’re designed with thicker lead plates whereas the car equivalent have thinner plates capable of delivering the Oomph needed to start a car.

VRLA refers to Valve Regulated lead acid which is a valve built into the Battery cells to vent gas if the battery overheats when charging. This used to happen occasionally if a battery with a duff cell was put on charge, and you get Hydrogen Sulphide gas ( rotten egg smell ) given off - not very pleasant in a workshop and quite dangerous !

In my early days I took a couple of completely flat batteries and cut one of each in half to look at the make up.

There’s a lot of newer technology coming along now for car batteries with Calcium being added to the lead plates a common thing now as well, done to improve the strength of the plates and also to reduce corrosion and extend the life ( there are other advantages too ).

Norm

[Hayzee]

I think we may have an EFB (Enhanced Flooded Battery) fitted to our vehicles. Lower cost option for Toyota. Maybe the same as VRLA that Norman mentions above. From the Yuasa website....

"For high volume production vehicles beginning in 2008/09, two advanced development modifications of the conventional flooded Lead Acid Battery are currently being installed. The first generation of these vehicles is now starting to enter the aftermarket. These are:

• AGM technology installed on high performance vehicles featuring advanced Stop/Start and charge management/regenerative braking systems
• EFB technology installed on entry level Start/Stop vehicles, usually where fuel economy and CO₂ reduction requirements are reduced. EFB provides a more cost effective solution over AGM as the design is based a conventional flooded Lead Acid Battery but with improved specification and performance."

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

Battery technology is an interesting and often completely confusing subject these days. It’s sometimes hard to know exactly what you’ve got and how it differs from other types.

We’ve come a long way from the old standard lead acid car Battery with screw plugs in each cell to top them up !

I do occasionally  wonder if some of the phrases used by manufacturers are slightly ‘smoke & mirrors’ to persuade you that their batteries are better 🤔.

 

[nlee]

Who knew Battery identification was so difficult!

It would appear both types of batteries posted above are Yuasa Y6 Series, at least they are the only ones that have that type of product code. Search for GS-Yuasa Y6 Series on Google and there is a 2 page PDF information sheet. It appears it isn't a AGM Battery and it also specifically states that it isn't suitable for Stop/Start vehicles (not that that is a concern for us). Although neither specific variants mentioned are listed on that sheet.

The coding does not align with any of the several standards that are used that I could see. The LN1/LN2 refers to the size in mm. LN1 is 207x175x190 (LxWxH) and LN2 is 242x175x190. MF means maintenance free, which is an oxymoron when the label talks about topping up with distilled water! All the Y6 series have L type terminals (i.e. negative on the left with the terminals towards you). I couldn't see anywhere in the UK/EU selling this specific type of Battery. I did a quick search for replacement batteries for the PHEV. Many sites say no suitable battery found! The Yuasa UK site gives options but none match the capacity or cold cranking amps of this battery.

 

[ernieb]

3 hours ago, nlee said:

Mine (PHEV) is the same battery as Colin's

Interesting that the little sight glass thing is red, which according to the label means the battery needs charging. This is straight after my journey to work.

Rechecked mine and it’s the same.

[Hayzee]

This is the AGM Battery that the Yuasa site suggests can be used on the PHEV (and HEV)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/hj-s46b24r.html

Capacity Ah (20-HR): 45 .....same as the HEV Battery but imagine fine for the PHEV too.

CCA is lower too but not needed for the RAV4

[philip42h]

4 minutes ago, nlee said:

Who knew battery identification was so difficult!

It would appear both types of batteries posted above are Yuasa Y6 Series, at least they are the only ones that have that type of product code. Search for GS-Yuasa Y6 Series on Google and there is a 2 page PDF information sheet. It appears it isn't a AGM battery and it also specifically states that it isn't suitable for Stop/Start vehicles (not that that is a concern for us). Although neither specific variants mentioned are listed on that sheet.

The coding does not align with any of the several standards that are used that I could see. The LN1/LN2 refers to the size in mm. LN1 is 207x175x190 (LxWxH) and LN2 is 242x175x190. MF means maintenance free, which is an oxymoron when the label talks about topping up with distilled water! All the Y6 series have L type terminals (i.e. negative on the left with the terminals towards you). I couldn't see anywhere in the UK/EU selling this specific type of battery. I did a quick search for replacement batteries for the PHEV. Many sites say no suitable battery found! The Yuasa UK site gives options but none match the capacity or cold cranking amps of this battery.

Exactly so ... I finally had to go rip out panels from the boot to find that mine is exactly the same as Keith's (robo1) - I wouldn't want to do that again ...

I also found this Yuasa press release which suggest that LN0, LN1 and LN2 define more that just the size:

pdf_gs_160304201730.pdf

As others have said, if you look for a replacement it would probably have to be AGM ...

[ernieb]

29 minutes ago, Hayzee said:

This is the AGM battery that the Yuasa site suggests can be used on the PHEV (and HEV)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/hj-s46b24r.html

Capacity Ah (20-HR): 45 .....same as the HEV battery but imagine fine for the PHEV too.

CCA is lower too but not needed for the RAV4

Boy I started a ‘hare running’ when I incorrectly identified my cars Battery as an AGM. Sorry about that guys. 

[philip42h]

2 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Boy I started a ‘hare running’ when I incorrectly identified my cars battery as an AGM. Sorry about that guys. 

Yes, but it should be ... and you probably ought to switch the setting on your trickle charger ... 😉

[nlee]

32 minutes ago, philip42h said:

Exactly so ... I finally had to go rip out panels from the boot to find that mine is exactly the same as Keith's (robo1) - I wouldn't want to do that again ...

I also found this Yuasa press release which suggest that LN0, LN1 and LN2 define more that just the size:

pdf_gs_160304201730.pdf 275.33 kB · 3 downloads

As others have said, if you look for a replacement it would probably have to be AGM ...

Yes, I'm sure it does. Possibly the L means left neutral, not sure about N, as that's consistent but 1 or 2 is the size. It's just capacity and CCA also increases with size. This is the PDF I mentioned earlier.

Y6_for_General_passenger_cars.pdf

[Hayzee]

52 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Boy I started a ‘hare running’ when I incorrectly identified my cars battery as an AGM. Sorry about that guys. 

Ernie....no apologies necessary.....you raised a great point

[ernieb]

21 minutes ago, Hayzee said:

Ernie....no apologies necessary.....you raised a great point

Thanks Colin.

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, Hayzee said:

This is the AGM battery that the Yuasa site suggests can be used on the PHEV (and HEV)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/hj-s46b24r.html

Capacity Ah (20-HR): 45 .....same as the HEV battery but imagine fine for the PHEV too.

CCA is lower too but not needed for the RAV4

Just used the site to lookup the Battery for my VIN and I get the same one.

Interestingly it says:

 

[philip42h]

OK, so drifting back towards the original topic ... 😉

We know that if you leave any car standing idle long enough it's Battery will go flat. Toyota hybrids have relatively modestly sized auxiliary batteries and modern cars have higher 'idle drain' currents than earlier cars so that the auxiliary Battery will run flat in a relatively short time. Toyota suggest 60 minutes a week of Ready / run time to overcome the 'idle drain'.

We've had one or two owners do silly things (in hindsight) like leaving the car in Accessory mode, and one or two relatively inexplicable auxiliary Battery issues, but most of us just drive the car with no issues at all. The wife has  a C-HR, isn't aware of the problem and doesn't need to be. We are both retired, have no regular commute and drive infrequently, irregularly or both. Looking back through the MyT data I managed to drive for a total of two hours in June (so less that 30 minutes per week) and the car was just fine - maybe I was just lucky ... 🙂

There does appear to be some anecdotal evidence that the issue is more prevalent on the PHEV than the HEV - which is perhaps 'odd' since the PHEV has the higher capacity battery ... so, why?

I suspect that the remote aicon / preconditioning feature (available on the PHEV but not on the HEV) may have something to do with this. We know that the PHEV is equipped with a heat pump for more efficient heating and cooling when the ICE isn't running. We know that the heat pump is powered from the traction battery - I don't know but my guess would be that it is a standard 230v / 110v AC compressor that is used to drive the heat pump. But I would guess that everything else - heated windows, mirrors, fans etc. - are powered from the 12v auxiliary battery in the normal way, and that would drain a relatively modestly sized auxiliary battery quite quickly.

So, my question would be do we know whether or not the auxiliary battery is charged from the traction battery while remote aircon / preconditioning is active irrespective of whether the PHEV is plugged in for charging or in Ready mode? I begin to suspect not ...

[Roger_N]

36 minutes ago, philip42h said:

We know that if you leave any car standing idle long enough it's battery will go flat. Toyota hybrids have relatively modestly sized auxiliary batteries and modern cars have higher 'idle drain' currents than earlier cars so that the auxiliary battery will run flat in a relatively short time. Toyota suggest 60 minutes a week of Ready / run time to overcome the 'idle drain'.

As the Rav takes between 28- 35 !Removed! on the carrier to arrive in the UK what is the possibility of the original Battery already having been run flat?

[nlee]

From the data I saw previously, it suggests that the traction Battery did charge the auxiliary Battery during cabin preconditioning. However, I've got myself one of those bluetooth Battery monitors (plus a ctek male plug so I can easy connect it up to my eyelet connector) out for delivery today so I will be testing all sorts of scenarios and sharing the results.

I have to agree, I've not had a problem yet either, but there is definitely something peculiar with the charging arrangement and curiosity is getting the better of me.

I haven't used the cabin preconditioning since the hot spell in the summer and I'm still seeing low battery voltages some mornings (11.2v this morning having not used the car yesterday but seems plenty for the car to go into Ready though), so it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back but there seems to be other gremlins at play.