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R4P... Seriously let me down


Nick72
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Just looked up the data fro the manual

1 red Desulphation High pulse Battery repair mode

2 red leds is softstart

3 red is bulk charging upto 80%

4 ready to use absorrtion

5 Analise (checking how fast voltage drops to 12 volts

6 green led is fully charged float voltage

green plus next  red 7 is maintance voltage pulse mode

I usully start charging with 2 or 3 leds.

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Ok I'm really totally confused.

 

3rd time. Long 1 hour run yesterday. Half hour the day before. Today, laboured wing mirror unfold. Crazy MID messages about hold function. But started. Crazy messages went away. 

Check Battery front the engine fuse box terminal. 19.87V when car off. 14.47V when car switched on in EV mode.

19.87V? Way too high. And this should just read the Battery with no inverter input.

Bad earth or something?

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18 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Ok I'm really totally confused.

 

3rd time. Long 1 hour run yesterday. Half hour the day before. Today, laboured wing mirror unfold. Crazy MID messages about hold function. But started. Crazy messages went away. 

Check battery front the engine fuse box terminal. 19.87V when car off. 14.47V when car switched on in EV mode.

19.87V? Way too high. And this should just read the battery with no inverter input.

Bad earth or something?

Has your car had the software update to address the known 12v Battery depletion problem?

https://www.toyoheadquarters.com/threads/2021-toyota-rav4-prime-depleted-12v-auxiliary-battery-t-sb-0056-22.2733/

Yes I know that is US market but it sounds to me like you really need to just give it back to Toyota and let them sort it out.

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38 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Ok I'm really totally confused.

 

3rd time. Long 1 hour run yesterday. Half hour the day before. Today, laboured wing mirror unfold. Crazy MID messages about hold function. But started. Crazy messages went away. 

Check battery front the engine fuse box terminal. 19.87V when car off. 14.47V when car switched on in EV mode.

19.87V? Way too high. And this should just read the battery with no inverter input.

Bad earth or something?

Well that's great news ... in a totally sad and perverse sort of way. Assuming that your measurement of 19.9v is correct, there is a very obvious fault and not even a Toyota dealer can pretend otherwise. That strongly suggests that there is a fault to be fixed. (I'm a glass quarter full sort of guy)

14.5v in Ready mode suggests that the DC/DC converter is detecting that the Battery needs charging and is attempting to do so. That is perfectly consistent with Nigel's measurements etc.

It is difficult (for me) to see where 19.9v is coming from. The only source on energy is the traction Battery and the only route to the auxiliary Battery is via the DC/DC converter. So, in the spirit of Cluedo, I suspect the DC/DC converter ... maybe? 🤷‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Ok I'm really totally confused.

 

3rd time. Long 1 hour run yesterday. Half hour the day before. Today, laboured wing mirror unfold. Crazy MID messages about hold function. But started. Crazy messages went away. 

Check battery front the engine fuse box terminal. 19.87V when car off. 14.47V when car switched on in EV mode.

19.87V? Way too high. And this should just read the battery with no inverter input.

Bad earth or something?

Something seriously wrong with your car and if the Battery gets anything like the nearly 20v you’ve measured it will have boiled beyond use. If they find a fix they must also replace the 12v Battery. Sounds like you’ve narrowed down the issue to a point that the garage can sort the problem.

 

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6 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Has your car had the software update to address the known 12v battery depletion problem?

https://www.toyoheadquarters.com/threads/2021-toyota-rav4-prime-depleted-12v-auxiliary-battery-t-sb-0056-22.2733/

Yes I know that is US market but it sounds to me like you really need to just give it back to Toyota and let them sort it out.

Not that I'm aware of but that could be it. 

Booked in but couldn't get an appointment for 3weeks.

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5 hours ago, philip42h said:

Well that's great news ... in a totally sad and perverse sort of way. Assuming that your measurement of 19.9v is correct, there is a very obvious fault and not even a Toyota dealer can pretend otherwise. That strongly suggests that there is a fault to be fixed. (I'm a glass quarter full sort of guy)

14.5v in Ready mode suggests that the DC/DC converter is detecting that the battery needs charging and is attempting to do so. That is perfectly consistent with Nigel's measurements etc.

It is difficult (for me) to see where 19.9v is coming from. The only source on energy is the traction battery and the only route to the auxiliary battery is via the DC/DC converter. So, in the spirit of Cluedo, I suspect the DC/DC converter ... maybe? 🤷‍♂️

Could be but the car was off so the only voltage that should have been detected was from the 12V Battery alone. How does a 12V batter get to nearly 20V?

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4 hours ago, ernieb said:

Something seriously wrong with your car and if the battery gets anything like the nearly 20v you’ve measured it will have boiled beyond use. If they find a fix they must also replace the 12v battery. Sounds like you’ve narrowed down the issue to a point that the garage can sort the problem.

 

I think so. Measured it several times and the same result. Over 19V. 

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Update.

At the other end of the country. 3.5hr drive yesterday PM. Stayed at hotel overnight. This AM... Car seemed laboured with wing mirrors and boot opening. Air con would not switch on no matter what I tried, auto, manual hi, fans full etc. This includes the front defroster. Pressed button and nothing. After about 10 minutes with the engine running all is working again.

Not much choice but to use the car until it goes in on 5th December or there abouts. Can't recall. Point for me of a company car is it is hassle free motoring, reliable, new car every 3 years, and a good tax break for PHEV and EV. Not panning out like that at the moment. So frustrating, such a great car up until then.

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1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Update.

At the other end of the country. 3.5hr drive yesterday PM. Stayed at hotel overnight. This AM... Car seemed laboured with wing mirrors and boot opening. Air con would not switch on no matter what I tried, auto, manual hi, fans full etc. This includes the front defroster. Pressed button and nothing. After about 10 minutes with the engine running all is working again.

Not much choice but to use the car until it goes in on 5th December or there abouts. Can't recall. Point for me of a company car is it is hassle free motoring, reliable, new car every 3 years, and a good tax break for PHEV and EV. Not panning out like that at the moment. So frustrating, such a great car up until then.

Sad, really sad that you’re unable to get someone to look at it sooner that the 5th, that’s not good. This is essentially a car off the road situation with something fundamentally wrong with the cars 12v systems. I’d have hoped that the dealership would have responded better than this, have you talked to the service manager?

 

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On 11/21/2022 at 11:03 AM, ernieb said:

Sad, really sad that you’re unable to get someone to look at it sooner that the 5th, that’s not good. This is essentially a car off the road situation with something fundamentally wrong with the cars 12v systems. I’d have hoped that the dealership would have responded better than this, have you talked to the service manager?

 

I didn't no. But I was pretty strong with service reception. They said they are maxed out until 5th and if I wanted a courtesy car for whilst it is in with for 2 days I'd need to wait another week. P*** poor really. But pulling it forward now is also problematic with how pack my diary is. That time of year. Only one long trip remaining until 5th. Got me back yesterday evening from 180 miles without anything weird happening. Anxious though wondering whether it is going to start. Also anxious they may not be competent enough to track the fault down if it is not an obvious one. Hoping that it is just a conclusively demonstrable 12V Battery fault and a straight swap fixes it. If it is earthing, shorting, inverter level complexity I'm half expecting them to try to fob me off. What I can't afford is the same constant backwards and forwards with dealer as I had with the Pregoat. A lot of stress, a lot of time with no car, and total incompetence and lack of customer care.  At which point I'll dump the car back with them and switch back to Mercedes or just go and buy an AWD Dacia Duster for a 3rd the price. They seem to be pretty reliable and good off road.

 

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25 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

I didn't no. But I was pretty strong with service reception. They said they are maxed out until 5th and if I wanted a courtesy car for whilst it is in with for 2 days I'd need to wait another week. P*** poor really. But pulling it forward now is also problematic with how pack my diary is. That time of year. Only one long trip remaining until 5th. Got me back yesterday evening from 180 miles without anything weird happening. Anxious though wondering whether it is going to start. Also anxious they may not be competent enough to track the fault down if it is not an obvious one. Hoping that it is just a conclusively demonstrable 12V battery fault and a straight swap fixes it. If it is earthing, shorting, inverter level complexity I'm half expecting them to try to fob me off. What I can't afford is the same constant backwards and forwards with dealer as I had with the Pregoat. A lot of stress, a lot of time with no car, and total incompetence and lack of customer care.  At which point I'll dump the car back with them and switch back to Mercedes or just go and buy an AWD Dacia Duster for a 3rd the price. They seem to be pretty reliable and good off road.

 

I can fully appreciate your frustration and remember only to well what life was like when I was still working especially the last few years when I was the lead for our UK facilities putting in SAP R3. So much travelling  not the distances you cover but early starts and late returns, would never have been a good day if the car refused to start.

My worse experience was a Landrover Freelander which had three fuel pumps, they were all intermittent and unreliable. The engine was BMW which was OK, the pump Landrover 🤯

Are you carrying a Lithium Ion 12v Battery jump starter which should within a few minutes be enough to get you going if the worse came to the worse? Fingers crossed it all works out OK and that the dealer can sort the issue.

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21 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Are you carrying a Lithium Ion 12v battery jump starter which should within a few minutes be enough to get you going if the worse came to the worse?

Peace of mind?

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/jump-starters/noco-gb40-1000a-jump-starter-721898.html

Far more than you need to start the hybrid system but useable on other cars too and worth having.

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On 10/28/2022 at 7:56 PM, Nick72 said:

Used moco loco device under bonnet since tailgate inoperable. Started and all is normal ...

If you read the thread, and decode the Nick-ese, you'll know that Nick already has the appropriate jump-start device. And I'm absolutely sure that he is remembering to keep it charged up ... 😉

As to exactly what is wrong I suspect that we are all still pretty much in the dark. It is absolutely clear that the 12v auxiliary Battery is unable to supply the necessary 12v when it comes time to start the car - but whether that is because:

  • the Battery is faulty
  • the charging system is faulty
  • there is a truly parasitic drain / short draining the auxiliary Battery in hours rather than weeks

we just don't know ...

Again, it seems pretty certain that DC/DC converter is providing the required 12.6v when in Ready mode, and, indeed, 14v+ at times to recharge the auxiliary battery, so it seems pretty unlikely that the car will fail during a journey - it just might not start again when needed to for the next one.

Hopefully, it will turn out to be a duff battery 🤞 but the reports of water where it shouldn't be and strange noises worry me ... 😞

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35 minutes ago, philip42h said:

If you read the thread, and decode the Nick-ese, you'll know that Nick already has the appropriate jump-start device. And I'm absolutely sure that he is remembering to keep it charged up ... 😉

As to exactly what is wrong I suspect that we are all still pretty much in the dark.

I'll admit to not having read all of it as the majority is just reports of CTEK results etc.

As for being in the dark, yes probably but I have pointed out that there is a known 12V depletion problem with an associated TSB and "fix". Whether that will prove relevant in this case is yet to be determined. Would that it were so simple.

As you say, I suspect that using the car will be absolutely fine and keeping the booster handy in the meantime should get him to his date with the dealership.

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2 hours ago, ernieb said:

I can fully appreciate your frustration and remember only to well what life was like when I was still working especially the last few years when I was the lead for our UK facilities putting in SAP R3. So much travelling  not the distances you cover but early starts and late returns, would never have been a good day if the car refused to start.

My worse experience was a Landrover Freelander which had three fuel pumps, they were all intermittent and unreliable. The engine was BMW which was OK, the pump Landrover 🤯

Are you carrying a Lithium Ion 12v battery jump starter which should within a few minutes be enough to get you going if the worse came to the worse? Fingers crossed it all works out OK and that the dealer can sort the issue.

Thanks Ernie. That sounds painful.

I think it's the hassle and faff which is part the problem. I'm usually pulled here there and everywhere at the last minute.

Yes, got the NOCO so the worst case is a faff for a few minutes. Just a thought I never checked how many boosts you can get out of one of those. Assumed perhaps 3 or 4 before needing to recharge it but didn't check.

 

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1 hour ago, Strangely Brown said:

Peace of mind?

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/jump-starters/noco-gb40-1000a-jump-starter-721898.html

Far more than you need to start the hybrid system but useable on other cars too and worth having.

Got a NOCO which I've used a few times now. Shouldn't really need to but it does make for a fall back. I thought my days of cleaning points, fixing water pumps, and tightening fan belts in a suit were over. 

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1 hour ago, philip42h said:

If you read the thread, and decode the Nick-ese, you'll know that Nick already has the appropriate jump-start device. And I'm absolutely sure that he is remembering to keep it charged up ... 😉

As to exactly what is wrong I suspect that we are all still pretty much in the dark. It is absolutely clear that the 12v auxiliary battery is unable to supply the necessary 12v when it comes time to start the car - but whether that is because:

  • the battery is faulty
  • the charging system is faulty
  • there is a truly parasitic drain / short draining the auxiliary battery in hours rather than weeks

we just don't know ...

Again, it seems pretty certain that DC/DC converter is providing the required 12.6v when in Ready mode, and, indeed, 14v+ at times to recharge the auxiliary battery, so it seems pretty unlikely that the car will fail during a journey - it just might not start again when needed to for the next one.

Hopefully, it will turn out to be a duff battery 🤞 but the reports of water where it shouldn't be and strange noises worry me ... 😞

Good summary Philip. I'll be sure to post what the findings are. Hopefully Toyota can sort it and my prejudice based upon a chronic experience with Peugeot and a sublime experience with Mercedes is irrelevant. 🙏🤞

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39 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

I'll admit to not having read all of it as the majority is just reports of CTEK results etc.

As for being in the dark, yes probably but I have pointed out that there is a known 12V depletion problem with an associated TSB and "fix". Whether that will prove relevant in this case is yet to be determined. Would that it were so simple.

As you say, I suspect that using the car will be absolutely fine and keeping the booster handy in the meantime should get him to his date with the dealership.

Thank you. I've added that to the "please check" list for the dealer so a comprehensive set of investigations are performed. I don't want a replacement Battery fix of the Battery was just a symptom of another cause.

 

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The problem with monitoring it from accessory socket it goes dead when you turn off the engine.

A low reading ie red light on using ctek traffic light monitor your Battery voltage will recover somewhat after switch off so not a exact reading of Battery voltage.

A more accurate reading is given 3 or 4 hours later unless to do that you wake up the computers from sleep mode, your mirrors swing out & possibly your vaccume pump start running.

Thats a good reason for monitoring the Battery away from the car.

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9 hours ago, Derek.w said:

The problem with monitoring it from accessory socket it goes dead when you turn off the engine.

A low reading ie red light on using ctek traffic light monitor your battery voltage will recover somewhat after switch off so not a exact reading of battery voltage.

A more accurate reading is given 3 or 4 hours later unless to do that you wake up the computers from sleep mode, your mirrors swing out & possibly your vaccume pump start running.

Thats a good reason for monitoring the battery away from the car.

I agree with that but for most people a simple accessory socket digital voltmeter costing a few pounds on Amazon (other suppliers are available) is a good place to start. Monitoring the voltage when the car is put into accessory mode, then READY mode gives reasonable account of the Battery state. The voltage can be monitored whilst you drive and when you stop. I'm surprised with this simple set up how long my PHEV takes to reduce the charge voltage to 12.4v (charged state). Even though I'm regularly doing trips of over 20 miles and maybe 40 mins it still reads 14.2V.

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8 hours of motorway driving last Sunday and Monday. By yesterday the Battery was completely dead. Wouldn't even unlock. Had to take the emergency key out of the fob to get in. Bizarre loop then followed. Put the booster on and tried to start. Wouldn't start because the traction Battery charger cable was plugged. Warning message. But the charger cable wouldn't disconnect because not enough 12V juice to unlock the port solenoid. What a faff. NOCO needed charging so then I waited an hour for it to charge enough to try again. Managed to unlock the port then start. Meanwhile I'm late for yet another event. 

Getting tired of this. Car not in until 5th December. Earliest they could do.

I think the 12V Battery is a goner. Still reading over 19V when car off. Assuming something has gone wrong with cells, going from parallel to series as the only thing I can think of that could cause this.

This may be preventing the car from charging the battery if there's a threshold trigger which is rarely reached given the excessive voltage reading.

Soooo painful.

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11 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

8 hours of motorway driving last Sunday and Monday. By yesterday the battery was completely dead. Wouldn't even unlock. Had to take the emergency key out of the fob to get in. Bizarre loop then followed. Put the booster on and tried to start. Wouldn't start because the traction battery charger cable was plugged. Warning message. But the charger cable wouldn't disconnect because not enough 12V juice to unlock the port solenoid. What a faff. NOCO needed charging so then I waited an hour for it to charge enough to try again. Managed to unlock the port then start. Meanwhile I'm late for yet another event. 

 

Getting tired of this. Car not in until 5th December. Earliest they could do.

 

I think the 12V battery is a goner. Still reading over 19V when car off. Assuming something has gone wrong with cells, going from parallel to series as the only thing I can think of that could cause this.

This may be preventing the car from charging the battery if there's a threshold trigger which is rarely reached given the excessive voltage reading.

 

Soooo painful.

Really looks likely it’s a boiled Battery and the inverter fried?

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1 hour ago, ernieb said:

Really looks likely it’s a boiled battery and the inverter fried?

I think so Ernie. Seems that way. Not sure what would have caused that.

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3 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I think so Ernie. Seems that way. Not sure what would have caused that.

I guess if it’s the inverter/regulator it could be just a random component failure. Sadly, if it’s something like that that would mean a new inverter as they don’t seem to repair items the timescale could be horrendous. Hopefully it’s something simple and an easy, quick fix.

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