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R4P... Seriously let me down


Nick72
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If its reading 19 volts your dc to dc charger is not working presuming you not using a mains charger when taking the reading.

I suspect its reading a voltage across a capacitor with no current flowing for charging Battery.

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On 11/27/2022 at 9:01 PM, ernieb said:

I guess if it’s the inverter/regulator it could be just a random component failure. Sadly, if it’s something like that that would mean a new inverter as they don’t seem to repair items the timescale could be horrendous. Hopefully it’s something simple and an easy, quick fix.

Will find out by close of play Tuesday I guess. Really hoping it isn't. I'm not sure where I would stand. Had these shenanigans with Peugeot. They didn't have any courtesy cars available (ever) and lease company said it's not their problem. It was, and in the end they got me a hire cire. Suspect if it comes to it I'll be on the phone to HR. Grrr.

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6 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Will find out by close of play Tuesday I guess. Really hoping it isn't. I'm not sure where I would stand. Had these shenanigans with Peugeot. They didn't have any courtesy cars available (ever) and lease company said it's not their problem. It was, and in the end they got me a hire cire. Suspect if it comes to it I'll be on the phone to HR. Grrr.

Fingers crossed, 🤞

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Update...

 

Garage just got in touch.

Charged 12v over night. Conducted Battery test and all good.

Conducted DC management system check which I assume means inverter to DC DC to Battery chain. All good.

Has made software update associated with telematics system not shutting down, which was drawing current since that update was absent. 

19v reading on Battery when off not stated as whether they could repeat that. I'll check that again at the weekend.

So this is really a matter of fingers crossed and seeing how I get on over the weeks to come.

Not terribly confident.

 

Thanks for everyone's support.👍😎🤞

 

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1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Update...

 

Garage just got in touch.

Charged 12v over night. Conducted battery test and all good.

Conducted DC management system check which I assume means inverter to DC DC to battery chain. All good.

Has made software update associated with telematics system not shutting down, which was drawing current since that update was absent. 

19v reading on battery when off not stated as whether they could repeat that. I'll check that again at the weekend.

So this is really a matter of fingers crossed and seeing how I get on over the weeks to come.

Not terribly confident.

 

Thanks for everyone's support.👍😎🤞

 

Well, let's hope that is a permanent fix, it would be interesting to know something more about the software update?  I had some updates when I had the car serviced in May but they did not list anything like that one.

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There was a recall for the SOS system that was applied to mine at the last service.

If a fix was applied for "telematics system" (Data Comms Module?) not shutting down then, if that was happening, it could easily explain a flat 12v Battery, especially a little one.

Problem described here in the "electrical issues" section at 12:45.


 

 

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6 hours ago, ernieb said:

Well, let's hope that is a permanent fix, it would be interesting to know something more about the software update?  I had some updates when I had the car serviced in May but they did not list anything like that one.

Thanks Ernie. This is all that was written...

Odd they didn't do this a couple of months ago when it was in for a full service and I said could you update everything especially where there are TSBs. They said yes everything is up to date already. Clearly not then if they've just had to update the telematics system because it is not shutting down. But, if I take their word and the Battery is fine and the right current and voltage is being supplied to charge the 12V then the only remaining explanation is a parasitic current draw when the car is switched off. Odd then that I've had the car 12 months and many times left it for weeks on end with only 5 minute trips before that and yet it started every time with no issues. Why then it would suddenly start now a few weeks ago and 5 times in that period is a total mystery. Especially after 8 hours of motorway driving on one occasion and 6 on another and get a flat Battery within a day or days?

 

In short, I'm not convinced this is the problem. See how I get on but I think I'm making up my mind. If it happens again Toyota will get one more go before I hand the car back through our HR team like the last one, the dreaded Peugeot. I'll switch back to Merc. Never had a reliability problem with a new Merc.

Doesn't matter how good a car is and this has been a great one, if it is unreliable and I'm faffing about in the freezing Biblical rain and gales we get up here to boost the car in my business suit racing to a last minute dot com summons to a board meeting then... ...No. Goodbye Toyota. This isn't 1994 with an old Vauxhall Nova.

Still flummoxed by the 19V reading which I'm going to retry this weekend out of curiosity.

New weird thing I've got is on the way home is the car is beeping. No visual warning at all. High pitch beeeep beeeep. Did it 5 times. Not doing anything in particular. Turning aa corner one, straight and level another, crawling in traffic another. Looked through all the settings and nothing obvious. Nothing in RSA since that's set to visual warning only if over speed limit. Have put all other settings back to how they were. But it still does it. No idea what is causing it. It's sounding like a Nintendo Gameboy. 😂😥 

Hopefully I can find it or that will drive me totally nuts.

So, see where we are in a couple of weeks.

 

 

 

 

20221206_165326.jpg

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Just now, Nick72 said:

Thanks Ernie. This is all that was written...

Odd they didn't do this a couple of months ago when it was in for a full service and I said could you update everything especially where there are TSBs. They said yes everything is up to date already. Clearly not then if they've just had to update the telematics system because it is not shutting down. But, if I take their word and the battery is fine and the right current and voltage is being supplied to charge the 12V then the only remaining explanation is a parasitic current draw when the car is switched off. Odd then that I've had the car 12 months and many times left it for weeks on end with only 5 minute trips before that and yet it started every time with no issues. Why then it would suddenly start now a few weeks ago and 5 times in that period is a total mystery. Especially after 8 hours of motorway driving on one occasion and 6 on another and get a flat battery within a day or days?

 

In short, I'm not convinced this is the problem. See how I get on but I think I'm making up my mind. If it happens again Toyota will get one more go before I hand the car back through our HR team like the last one, the dreaded Peugeot. I'll switch back to Merc. Never had a reliability problem with a new Merc.

Doesn't matter how good a car is and this has been a great one, if it is unreliable and I'm faffing about in the freezing Biblical rain and gales we get up here to boost the car in my business suit racing to a last minute dot com summons to a board meeting then... ...No. Goodbye Toyota. This isn't 1994 with an old Vauxhall Nova.

Still flummoxed by the 19V reading which I'm going to retry this weekend out of curiosity.

New weird thing I've got is on the way home is the car is beeping. No visual warning at all. High pitch beeeep beeeep. Did it 5 times. Not doing anything in particular. Turning aa corner one, straight and level another, crawling in traffic another. Looked through all the settings and nothing obvious. Nothing in RSA since that's set to visual warning only if over speed limit. Have put all other settings back to how they were. But it still does it. No idea what is causing it. It's sounding like a Nintendo Gameboy. 😂😥 

Hopefully I can find it or that will drive me totally nuts.

So, see where we are in a couple of weeks.

 

 

 

 

20221206_165326.jpg

Also what bothers me under the test carried out line is "good recharge". A Battery with hardly any capacity left can get a good recharge. Has nothing to do with battery's remaining capacity. Add load and it's gone. Maybe there's much behind it than the one liner but I would have hoped for...

Good recharge 

Voltage correct 

Capacity test good

Maybe I know too much being an engineer for over 33 years.

 

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6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Also what bothers me under the test carried out line is "good recharge". A battery with hardly any capacity left can get a good recharge. Has nothing to do with battery's remaining capacity. Add load and it's gone. Maybe there's much behind it than the one liner but I would have hoped for...

Good recharge 

Voltage correct 

Capacity test good

Maybe I know too much being an engineer for over 33 years.

 

Interesting stuff in both those posts. The 19v is problematic for sure, it will be interesting to see what you measure with a fully charged 12v Battery.

Mine still never seems to come off being charged 14.1/14.2v even after a 21/2 hour, 115mile run, no lights but heating on. 
The 12v Battery will get charged 12.4v indicated if I’ve previously charged the Battery via the NOCO charger then completed a drive locally. 

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If it were my car I would stop messing about with it and just drive it. If the Battery goes flat then use the NOCO to get it going and take things from there.

The DCM causing flat batteries is/was a known problem and a software fix is available for that. Your report does not say, specifically, that an update was applied in this respect so you could already have it and the "reset" procedure will get it functional. The "reset' could also mean re-flashing the DCM. Either way, they do appear to be aware of the issue and have done "something" to address it.
 

It will be interesting to see if your problems continue or if they go away. Meanwhile, personally, I would do absolutely nothing to the car. No chargers, Battery monitors, nothing. Just use it as Toyota gave it back to you and see what happens.

Just my £0.02. Other opinions are available.

 

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Thought:

If the DCM is now active, properly, I wonder if you are now receiving over the air updates for things like speed and red-light cameras.

When I first got my car I noticed that it beeped at me, seemingly at random, just as you describe. It was only purely by chance that one day it beeped as I happened to be glancing at the screen and I saw camera symbol and a distance pop up in the bottom right-hand corner.

Since I have the map visible in the main section of the "Home" screen all the time I do not know if the beep still happens if the map is not visible.

Just a thought. Probably more a wild stab in the dark.

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10 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Not terribly confident.

I fear that I would be in that camp too ...

They have done nothing to diagnose the fault.

They have recharged the 12v Battery, and then demonstrated that it is good - so not the fault you reported.

And they've carried out a telematics / DCU ECU reset which may well reduce parasitic drain - i.e. meaning that you can now leave the car standing for 4 weeks rather than 3 - but doesn't really seem to cover the fault.

If I am understanding correctly, you had a car the worked just perfectly for many months, and then relatively recently has let you down three times. That sounds like a 'fault' that has developed relatively recently rather than a software "feature" that has been present in the car from new.

And they haven't addressed the 19v anomaly at all ... I shall be interested to learn what you find when next you have time to check that ...

I sincerely hope that I am being unnecessarily pessimistic ... 😞

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2 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

If it were my car I would stop messing about with it and just drive it. If the battery goes flat then use the NOCO to get it going and take things from there.

The DCM causing flat batteries is/was a known problem and a software fix is available for that. Your report does not say, specifically, that an update was applied in this respect so you could already have it and the "reset" procedure will get it functional. The "reset' could also mean re-flashing the DCM. Either way, they do appear to be aware of the issue and have done "something" to address it.
 

It will be interesting to see if your problems continue or if they go away. Meanwhile, personally, I would do absolutely nothing to the car. No chargers, battery monitors, nothing. Just use it as Toyota gave it back to you and see what happens.

Just my £0.02. Other opinions are available.

 

Thanks. Yeh, that's what I've been doing for the past 3 or 4 weeks whilst I've been waiting for an appointment. But I've had to boost it 5 times now. 5 times in fewer weeks despite a lot of driving. Not for a new car, no. Not messing under bonnet and faffing. It's not 1986. Happens again I'm going to park it outside of the main entrance at Toyota and take to SM. If it's not fixed at that point they can take it back. Simple really and I don't think this is unreasonable.

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2 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Thought:

If the DCM is now active, properly, I wonder if you are now receiving over the air updates for things like speed and red-light cameras.

When I first got my car I noticed that it beeped at me, seemingly at random, just as you describe. It was only purely by chance that one day it beeped as I happened to be glancing at the screen and I saw camera symbol and a distance pop up in the bottom right-hand corner.

Since I have the map visible in the main section of the "Home" screen all the time I do not know if the beep still happens if the map is not visible.

Just a thought. Probably more a wild stab in the dark.

That's worth a try for sure. Thanks. Though I had Waze running on android auto at the time rather than the stock Sat Nav. Maybe I'll just try it with the stock Nav running and see if I can spot any symbols.

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44 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I fear that I would be in that camp too ...

They have done nothing to diagnose the fault.

They have recharged the 12v battery, and then demonstrated that it is good - so not the fault you reported.

And they've carried out a telematics / DCU ECU reset which may well reduce parasitic drain - i.e. meaning that you can now leave the car standing for 4 weeks rather than 3 - but doesn't really seem to cover the fault.

If I am understanding correctly, you had a car the worked just perfectly for many months, and then relatively recently has let you down three times. That sounds like a 'fault' that has developed relatively recently rather than a software "feature" that has been present in the car from new.

And they haven't addressed the 19v anomaly at all ... I shall be interested to learn what you find when next you have time to check that ...

I sincerely hope that I am being unnecessarily pessimistic ... 😞

5 times it failed in the last 3 or 4 weeks. No start, had to boost. Perfect prior to that in the 14 months I've had the car. That's an unusual software problem for sure. 

I just hope this is not a fob me off job to reduce warrantee claims or I think I'll go thermo nuclear.

Now it was in the dealership for an annual first service and the brake actuator software recall plus fob reprogramming about 2 months ago. They tried to update the brake software but the technician couldn't do it after trying many times and needed Leroy to sort it. But Leroy was off. As I said to reception, I really don't give a f... about Leroy. It was booked in for a service and 2 other things including the recall and you haven't done any of those two. Surely you make sure Leroy is in if you need Leroy. They also told me all software was up to date. Weird thing is, they're now saying they've updated all my software. What? You said it was all up to date 2 months ago so which is it? I specifically asked before, during, and after and you said yes.

Hypothesis then... They messed up the updates 2 months ago and potentially ended up resetting everything or something to an earlier buggy software load given it was probably Jimmy not Leroy who was doing it. This causes the problem I've experienced. Then, Leroy is now on the case today and thinks hang on, lots of updates required here so I'll update everything including this old bug fix on the telematics.

Guessing.

It's all starting to smell like Peugeot and I can't stand that smell.

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Lets hope Leroy fixes it.

Next day after a full recharge my Battery voltage is around 98% to 100% fully charged.

Note a full charge is indicated at 12.6 volts or more.

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10 hours ago, Nick72 said:

5 times it failed in the last 3 or 4 weeks. No start, had to boost. Perfect prior to that in the 14 months I've had the car. That's an unusual software problem for sure. 

I just hope this is not a fob me off job to reduce warrantee claims or I think I'll go thermo nuclear.

Now it was in the dealership for an annual first service and the brake actuator software recall plus fob reprogramming about 2 months ago. They tried to update the brake software but the technician couldn't do it after trying many times and needed Leroy to sort it. But Leroy was off. As I said to reception, I really don't give a f... about Leroy. It was booked in for a service and 2 other things including the recall and you haven't done any of those two. Surely you make sure Leroy is in if you need Leroy. They also told me all software was up to date. Weird thing is, they're now saying they've updated all my software. What? You said it was all up to date 2 months ago so which is it? I specifically asked before, during, and after and you said yes.

Hypothesis then... They messed up the updates 2 months ago and potentially ended up resetting everything or something to an earlier buggy software load given it was probably Jimmy not Leroy who was doing it. This causes the problem I've experienced. Then, Leroy is now on the case today and thinks hang on, lots of updates required here so I'll update everything including this old bug fix on the telematics.

Guessing.

It's all starting to smell like Peugeot and I can't stand that smell.

Well that makes sense.  The sad thing is that this is not directly a Toyota issue by the sounds of it, it's potentially the dealer.  I know to my cost the difference between good and bad dealers. The trouble is that it's the dealers who represent the brand regardless of how good or bad the car might be. I've owned good cars screwed up by a dealer and poor cars made even worse, e.g., Freelander where they swapped out a faulty fuel pump for a second hand one from a crash car. Guess what it failed a few weeks later when I critically needed the car to work, I was driving a new Subaru Forrester the following week.

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10 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Hypothesis then... They messed up the updates 2 months ago and potentially ended up resetting everything or something to an earlier buggy software load given it was probably Jimmy not Leroy who was doing it. This causes the problem I've experienced. Then, Leroy is now on the case today and thinks hang on, lots of updates required here so I'll update everything including this old bug fix on the telematics.

Guessing.

It sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

If, as they now say, that the DCM is up to date (along with everything else) then, if the DCM sleep issue was the cause of your problems, the car should be back to how it was for your first 14 months of ownership. I do hope that is the case.

As with so many other things the quality of the job that you get seems to be entirely down to the individual that does the work. Whether it is changing the oil in a RAV4 (overfilled), balancing the new tyres on a Mercedes (3 attempts to get it right) or overhauling the entire intake path on a Saab TTiD (superb job). If the technician does a poor job then the dealership looks bad, and therefore, the brand.

I look forward to hearing how it behaves over the next few weeks.
 

ETA: Just out of interest. Is the dealership a Toyota only franchise, or do they deal with other marques too?

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16 hours ago, ernieb said:

Well that makes sense.  The sad thing is that this is not directly a Toyota issue by the sounds of it, it's potentially the dealer.  I know to my cost the difference between good and bad dealers. The trouble is that it's the dealers who represent the brand regardless of how good or bad the car might be. I've owned good cars screwed up by a dealer and poor cars made even worse, e.g., Freelander where they swapped out a faulty fuel pump for a second hand one from a crash car. Guess what it failed a few weeks later when I critically needed the car to work, I was driving a new Subaru Forrester the following week.

I've heard similar stories before like that Ernie. Close friend of mine used to work at a VW dealer. They'd Rob parts from new cars on the lot to fix older cars and sometimes old parts ended up on new cars. Shameful.

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15 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

It sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

If, as they now say, that the DCM is up to date (along with everything else) then, if the DCM sleep issue was the cause of your problems, the car should be back to how it was for your first 14 months of ownership. I do hope that is the case.

As with so many other things the quality of the job that you get seems to be entirely down to the individual that does the work. Whether it is changing the oil in a RAV4 (overfilled), balancing the new tyres on a Mercedes (3 attempts to get it right) or overhauling the entire intake path on a Saab TTiD (superb job). If the technician does a poor job then the dealership looks bad, and therefore, the brand.

I look forward to hearing how it behaves over the next few weeks.
 

ETA: Just out of interest. Is the dealership a Toyota only franchise, or do they deal with other marques too?

Toyota only. And it has been superb for my wife for best part of 8 years when she had her Aygo. Problem here I think is the PHEV. Only Leroy knows what he is doing on it. Not used it since returning from the dealer. In the office tomorrow and it's all frozen solid so I'll try the preconditioning and see what happens 🤣

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6 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Toyota only. And it has been superb for my wife for best part of 8 years when she had her Aygo. Problem here I think is the PHEV. Only Leroy knows what he is doing on it. Not used it since returning from the dealer. In the office tomorrow and it's all frozen solid so I'll try the preconditioning and see what happens 🤣

Well, at least you will have given it a decent "test". 🙂
 

It's a real shame about the dealer having only 1 tech that can deal with PHEVs. I wonder if that had anything to do with the amount of time that it took to get your appointment? Sounds like they need a few more like Leroy / Ahmed  but I guess one of the problems is finding the time to train the technicians while also running a busy workshop, especially with so much new stuff coming along and skills being perhaps less transferable. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

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I suspect that having limited tech support for the PHEV's is not uncommon just think what it's going to be like for the bZ4X?  There is so much reliance on connecting the computer to the OBD port and resting on the results print out, 'sorry Sir there are no fault codes'.

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I noted on my recent replacement of the charging port flap, it said "only to be carried out by {technicians name was here}. I believe they had to remove the socket assembly so I suspect it is something to do with only limited technicians are qualified to work on the higher voltage systems.

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1 hour ago, nlee said:

I noted on my recent replacement of the charging port flap, it said "only to be carried out by {technicians name was here}. I believe they had to remove the socket assembly so I suspect it is something to do with only limited technicians are qualified to work on the higher voltage systems.

Very likely to be the case, once again how on earth are they going to cope with the bZ4X? Obviously there must have a lot of experience with the HEV cars but……..

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12 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Very likely to be the case, once again how on earth are they going to cope with the bZ4X? Obviously there must have a lot of experience with the HEV cars but……..

... but the HEV, PHEV and bZ4X all have essentially the same high voltage electric drive system. The traction batteries may have very different capacities but they all have the same "technician killing" voltages ...

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