5th generation Prius.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Due to be unveiled 16th November 2022.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-prius-successor-be-shown-16-november

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/11/toyota-teases-new-hybrid-model-for-november-16-could-be-the-new-prius/

[BhxTrev]

Hi Frosty, Thanks for that info. I note that there was mention of a a hydrogen fuel cell version that might be considered but I read the other day that Shell are shutting down their hydrogen service stations because of there being poor demand for hydrogen powered cars on the roads at present. Shell are concentrating on providing hydrogen for commercial vehicles & buses where it thinks the technology will be more likely used.
 

It seems therefore that hydrogen fuel cell cars are unlikely to sell in the UK. Reminds me of Betamax vs VHS where eventually VHS won. If Toyota decided to produce an all electric Battery powered electric Prius, I would be extremely interested. I’d have thought the Prius with all its fuel saving & safety features would be an ideal car to convert to an all electric vehicle. 

[Roy124]

As long as Shell maintains a commercial vehicle capability they could quickly add a hydrogen facility too. 

In the short term, might Toyota provide a facility at dealerships where the HFC cars are sold?  Initially it would tether the car to the dealership, then between two etc.  Once critical mass was in sight..... 

The same was true for EV. 

[TonyHSD]

Nice, can’t wait to see it. Next week will be unveiling in Japan. In UK probably next year and starting price of £39999 👌😂

[BhxTrev]

The one thing I do like about using hydrogen is that it is totally clean & can be produced by non polluting means unlike a lot of the electricity used to charge car batteries. It’s also quicker to fill up taking about three minutes as opposed to the best part of an hour to charge an ev Battery.

A big downside of the hydrogen ev, besides the initial shortage of filling stations in the UK, is the very complex fuel cell, with a lot more to go wrong & cause problems, compared to the Battery on a normal ev.

If Toyota were to manage to bring the price down well below that of the pricey Battery evs there’s a fair chance in my opinion, provided they sort the hydrogen filling stations & a refill isn’t too pricey, that sales of their hydrogen fuel cell evs could take off here.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota's teased images

[Cyker]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:44 PM, BhxTrev said:

The one thing I do like about using hydrogen is that it is totally clean & can be produced by non polluting means unlike a lot of the electricity used to charge car batteries. It’s also quicker to fill up taking about three minutes as opposed to the best part of an hour to charge an ev battery.

A big downside of the hydrogen ev, besides the initial shortage of filling stations in the UK, is the very complex fuel cell, with a lot more to go wrong & cause problems, compared to the battery on a normal ev.

If Toyota were to manage to bring the price down well below that of the pricey battery evs there’s a fair chance in my opinion, provided they sort the hydrogen filling stations & a refill isn’t too pricey, that sales of their hydrogen fuel cell evs could take off here.

You missed the worst thing about hydrogen - The cost!

If you think current dino juice prices are high, they got nothing on hydrogen!

The only reason e.g. the Mirai gets sold is because Toyota give a huge amount of free hydrogen fuel with the car so owners don't realize how expensive it is to run until they've owned the car for a while.

The cost-per-mile is similar to a big SUV but with worse range.

The extraction process for hydrogen is also either very polluting or very wasteful in terms of energy. I think it was something like the amount of energy needed to extract the hydrogen for one car could power 3-4 EVs to the equivalent range.

It's just worse than dino juice in almost every way aside from the CO2 emissions, but if they're really intent on banning petrol and diesel then, even with its huge downsides, there will be a lot of things where hydrogen is the only option as the energy density of batteries is still terrible compared to chemical fuels.

Maybe one day when we get the hang of this Space Travel thing, gathering hydrogen directly from Saturn or Jupiter will be a new industry so we don't have to waste gigawatts on extracting it from water, but alas that's quite a ways away!

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

In more than one offshore wind farms, they are piloting using electro!ysers  to produce green hydrogen. When we were holidaying in Aberdeenshire in September, we found that the Vattenfall wind farm (which was in sight of where we were staying) is beginning one such pilot:

https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/aberdeen-hydrogen

[Cyker]

It's still very wasteful - The amount of energy the wind turbine needs to make the hydrogen could propel 3-4 EVs the same distance.

I like the idea of using 'spare' electricity to make hydrogen, but generating electricity just to make hydrogen when it could be put to better use just seems daft to me.

[BhxTrev]

23 minutes ago, Cyker said:

You missed the worst thing about hydrogen - The cost!

If you think current dino juice prices are high, they got nothing on hydrogen!

The only reason e.g. the Mirai gets sold is because Toyota give a huge amount of free hydrogen fuel with the car so owners don't realize how expensive it is to run until they've owned the car for a while.

The cost-per-mile is similar to a big SUV but with worse range.

The extraction process for hydrogen is also either very polluting or very wasteful in terms of energy. I think it was something like the amount of energy needed to extract the hydrogen for one car could power 3-4 EVs to the equivalent range.

It's just worse than dino juice in almost every way aside from the CO2 emissions, but if they're really intent on banning petrol and diesel then, even with its huge downsides, there will be a lot of things where hydrogen is the only option as the energy density of batteries is still terrible compared to chemical fuels.

Maybe one day when we get the hang of this Space Travel thing, gathering hydrogen directly from Saturn or Jupiter will be a new industry so we don't have to waste gigawatts on extracting it from water, but alas that's quite a ways away!

I certainly take onboard what you are saying but petrol/diesel isn’t cheap, but they’re not renewable either!

[FROSTYBALLS]

If the pilots prove viable, they envisage the hydrogen produced will partly be used to power HGVs and buses, as well as other uses.

[BhxTrev]

Hi Cyker, the fact is you’re considering that Hydrogen can only be produced by electricity. From what I understand Hydrogen can can be produced by other chemical means. Mind you unless the infra structure is put in place my next car will be a Battery ev, Hopefully a Toyota Prius ev!!!!

[Cyker]

I was just talking about doing it with electricity as that's what we moved on to with the wind turbine; I did mention that some of the extraction processes can be be very polluting as well - Up 'til now, pretty much nobody used electricity to make hydrogen because it uses so much energy it wasn't considered economically viable do do it in bulk.

The main industrial process uses something called steam reformation and generates a lot of pollution, but it is much more efficient on an industrial scale.

The thing is, hydrogen *wants* to be attached to something, it really hates being on its own, so trying to pull it off other elements requires a lot of effort - It's been said that if someone invents a catalyst for hydrogen they would be set for life, but so far the only one I know of was platinum ceramic, which catalyses the reaction one way, but due to physical limits can't go the other way back to hydrogen.

Other methods proposed have included bio-engineering plant life/algae/bacteria that already emits hydrogen as a waste product to make more of it, which showed some promise but alas has gone quiet.

 

[TonyHSD]

I can’t comment on hydrogen as fuel but the new Prius silhouette looks very similar to Toyota crown recently introduced in America. , perhaps a bit smaller. 👍

[BhxTrev]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:09 PM, Cyker said:

I was just talking about doing it with electricity as that's what we moved on to with the wind turbine; I did mention that some of the extraction processes can be be very polluting as well - Up 'til now, pretty much nobody used electricity to make hydrogen because it uses so much energy it wasn't considered economically viable do do it in bulk.

The main industrial process uses something called steam reformation and generates a lot of pollution, but it is much more efficient on an industrial scale.

The thing is, hydrogen *wants* to be attached to something, it really hates being on its own, so trying to pull it off other elements requires a lot of effort - It's been said that if someone invents a catalyst for hydrogen they would be set for life, but so far the only one I know of was platinum ceramic, which catalyses the reaction one way, but due to physical limits can't go the other way back to hydrogen.

Other methods proposed have included bio-engineering plant life/algae/bacteria that already emits hydrogen as a waste product to make more of it, which showed some promise but alas has gone quiet.

 

Hi Cyker, I was involved in research as an inorganic materials chemist for which I have a PhD research degree. I did do some work on oxide ion conductive materials for use in fuel cells & was looking at lowering the temperature at the time, that fuel cells operated at, which then needed extremely high temperatures while the technology used stabilised zirconias. Things have obviously moved on since then!

[Yugguy1970]

That's one of the fields my daughter is interested in, she's doing chemistry and biology for a level but also sociology, so shes at a real crossroads in where to go.

[dannyboy413]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:50 PM, Cyker said:

Maybe one day when we get the hang of this Space Travel thing, gathering hydrogen directly from Saturn or Jupiter will be a new industry so we don't have to waste gigawatts on extracting it from water, but alas that's quite a ways away!

 

Can you imagine the pipeline required! 

[BhxTrev]

5 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

That's one of the fields my daughter is interested in, she's doing chemistry and biology for a level but also sociology, so shes at a real crossroads in where to go.

Hi Guy,

I’m retired now so have not been involved with anything research wise for some years. However, my advice to your daughter is to try if she can to include A level Physics &/or Maths as well as her Chemistry & Biology since these are the subjects Universities want. If she wants to pursue a Chemistry career she needs to get good A level grades & choose a Chemistry MSc/BSc honours degree course at a University offering the course. 
 

To be considered for a PhD/DPhil in Chemistry she would need at least an upper second class, (2.1), if not as I had, a first class honours degree. There are many areas of Chemistry that she could then consider doing research in. I would definitely advise her to choose an area that she’s really interested in to be successful & apply to an appropriate University that can offer her the relevant research opportunity. Hope this helps. 

[TonyHSD]

One more day. Anyone counting the hours 😂👍

 

[Harters]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

One more day. Anyone counting the hours 😂👍

 

Yes me 😃.
 

I’ll be checking YouTube first thing in the morning 👍

[AJones]

As it's been announced it will be a hybrid, hopefully it'll be a PHEV with a decent sized Battery, say 15 or preferably 20kWh or more, so giving a comfortable 50+miles of EV range, with an uprated motor to improve the acceleration so it's a bit quicker when needed.

And the Battery under the seats or under the boot, unlike the Prime where it takes up most of the boot.

[TonyHSD]

But the question is, will it be available in uk at all ? 🤔

[Harters]

All I can say WOW and where do I sign 😀 

Hopefully it starts at the reveal, if not it's at 6 minutes. 

[AJones]

It looks a nicely styled car, very smart, but I'm not sure I would go as far as "hybrid reborn" it seems more "hybrid improved".

It's gone from a 1.8L engine to a 2L engine, which is going somewhat against the flow given the Prius history as a ground breaking Eco car, going for more petrol engine capacity not less no doubt helps with performance, but the point of a PHEV is you don't want to be firing up the engine. Be interesting to see how much of the improved acceleration relies on the engine kicking in, vs comes from the EV side.

The Prime (Plug in) had an 8.9kwh Battery and so this has been pushed up to 13.6kwh, but that isn't ground breaking, a lot of PHEV models have had Battery capacity increases after several years into production so these kind of capacities are now typical, not exceptional.

The launch was pitching it as being a better solution than pure EV because it is affordable and accessible to more owners, be interesting to see if it is more affordable than the EVs hitting the market recently. To date the Toyota PHEVs have tended to be very expensive, more expensive than many EVs so I wonder if they've been able to get the price down to make it more competitive.

[Jimota]

Just saw the first pictures of the new Prius.  What a difference from the outgoing model.  Toyota have got the design of this model spot on.