Stick or twist...........

[Lawnmowerman]

When I purchased my 4.4 hybrid some 4 years ago I was absolutely delighted with Toyota's system. A real joy to own and use. Then, I was intrigued by the PHEV and purchased it just over a year ago.

As much as I enjoyed the 4.4 the PHEV is on another level. Then there is the BZ4thingamy and I was attracted to it also - but rain stopped play as it were and I couldn't test drive it. Still haven't  - if the dealer has it available then they haven't contacted me to offer it for test (and I was on the list originally).

But, this last week of sub-zero weather has reduced my typical 43 miles on a full charge to struggling to get 28 miles (and that in fog crawling along at some points at 20 mph) and at no time above 50 mph.

So, a full BEV in these conditions? Who knows.

Stick or twist?

I think I'll stick...............

[Hayzee]

William..... I've seen a significant reduction in miles per kWh with my PHEV too since the temperature has dropped to single figures. I was seeing around 3.8 miles/kWh during warm weather which is now around 2.7.

However, even with the increased cost per kWh in April 2023, It still looks a fair bit cheaper than petrol/mile. Notwithstanding the costs, I love driving north of 85% of my trips in pure electric mode and am still in love with the vehicle.

[ernieb]

That's a tough one William and honestly only you know your driving pattern. I think right now the jury is out on the bZ4x range and I'd not be looking to make a change until people have had a year of driving and more cars have hit the road.

Although we intend to keep the current PHEV for 5 years we did have a conversation yesterday about what we'd do if we were looking to change and quickly decided the dual fuel option is still a good one to have under the current economic situations. We even discussed potentially keeping the car for the 'relaxed warranty' period.

I look at the PHEV EV range over the year rather than what's going on at any one time of the year and overall I honestly think we are getting around the 46miles averaged over the year. I filled the fuel tank yesterday and the range showed 530miles. (plus the 55miles EV range) There is no EV with a chassis around the size of the RAV which comes close.

I'm of an age where I don't want to be planning a longer trip around where I can get a charge into the car for us to reach my destination, I would not cope well with the anxiety of running out of power.

 

[Flatcoat]

The range of a full BEV will be similarly depleted so personally I would stick with the PHEV. My full charge range has dropped from 57 miles to 51 and actual from high 40’s to mid/high 30’s however mpg has fallen too, it always does on any ICE in winter. 

[ernieb]

One of the guys on the BZ4x posted some numbers for the AWD, 122miles with 53% EV showing getting 3miles/kWh.

I think William in your location and under similar circumstances to the post above you would be achieving much worse numbers than those figures show?

 

[Strangely Brown]

For comparison:

When Tesco announced recently that they would be charging for their EV chargers I had a play with some numbers to compare against my HEV.

Based on E5 fuel @ 171.9/ltr and 53mpg my HEV costs ~£0.15 per mile to run (fuel only) and takes 5 minutes or less to get >100miles of range.

Based on a 50kwh charge @ 50p/kwh and 3 miles/kwh use it costs £0.17 per mile to run and takes 40 minutes to get 100 miles of range.

For a 22kwh charge it is 40p/kwh and costs £0.13 per mile to run and takes 1.5 hours to get 100 miles of range.

For a 7kwh charge it is 28p/kwh and costs £0.09 per mile to run and takes 4.75 hours to get 100 miles of range.

Commercially charging a BEV away from home is not looking at all attractive.

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, Strangely Brown said:

For comparison:

When Tesco announced recently that they would be charging for their EV chargers I had a play with some numbers to compare against my HEV.

Based on E5 fuel @ 171.9/ltr and 53mpg my HEV costs ~£0.15 per mile to run (fuel only) and takes 5 minutes or less to get >100miles of range.

Based on a 50kwh charge @ 50p/kwh and 3 miles/kwh use it costs £0.17 per mile to run and takes 40 minutes to get 100 miles of range.

For a 22kwh charge it is 40p/kwh and costs £0.13 per mile to run and takes 1.5 hours to get 100 miles of range.

For a 7kwh charge it is 28p/kwh and costs £0.09 per mile to run and takes 4.75 hours to get 100 miles of range.

Commercially charging a BEV away from home is not looking at all attractive.

Right now I’m in limbo as far as a home 7kW charger is concerned. I only have a 60A incoming supply with an old black main fuse which to upgrade is very problematic. There does not seem to be a simple solution.

Charging on the go is as much the time it takes as the cost. I’m not a great coffee drinker and need to eat gluten free food etc. so it would be a pain in the proverbial to be waiting, queuing or looking for an appropriate available charging station. Things will get better for sure but from my prospective it’s still a way to go. There is still the problem of needing multiple apps or accounts to access charging stations and from what I see if they operate via credit card you are likely to pay a significant premium.

[NASY]

I'm getting 2.9 m/Kwh in the cold weather, which seems comparatively good. On the public charging front I'm not convinced that the charger to EV ratio will improve much for a long time as EV's will sell faster than charging points are built. Certainly there will come a real estate issue in the future as the occupation time at a charge point is so long compared to filling stations for petrol. There may be some interesting maths around the ultimate required real estate petrol/diesel  v EV. There are people on this site good that are at that.

[Nick72]

23 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

When I purchased my 4.4 hybrid some 4 years ago I was absolutely delighted with Toyota's system. A real joy to own and use. Then, I was intrigued by the PHEV and purchased it just over a year ago.

As much as I enjoyed the 4.4 the PHEV is on another level. Then there is the BZ4thingamy and I was attracted to it also - but rain stopped play as it were and I couldn't test drive it. Still haven't  - if the dealer has it available then they haven't contacted me to offer it for test (and I was on the list originally).

But, this last week of sub-zero weather has reduced my typical 43 miles on a full charge to struggling to get 28 miles (and that in fog crawling along at some points at 20 mph) and at no time above 50 mph.

So, a full BEV in these conditions? Who knows.

Stick or twist?

I think I'll stick...............

Stick.

[Lawnmowerman]

Thanks for all your thoughts.

Yes, I'll stick I think. Love the rocket ship performance - better than the BZ4x - although only rarely employ it I would miss it if it wasn't there. Enjoy not having range anxiety. Circumstances have changed since I purchased it and no longer is a day's commuting covered by a single charge. Indeed an expected 10,000 miles per annum turned into 17,000 miles - eek!! When I do have to venture south it can be a 360-400 mile round trip in a day - and a comfortable run it is too.

It really is a very capable car. Niggles? Lousy turning circle and no w/washer level warning. But I can (and do) live with it.

 

[Nick72]

10 minutes ago, Lawnmowerman said:

Thanks for all your thoughts.

Yes, I'll stick I think. Love the rocket ship performance - better than the BZ4x - although only rarely employ it I would miss it if it wasn't there. Enjoy not having range anxiety. Circumstances have changed since I purchased it and no longer is a day's commuting covered by a single charge. Indeed an expected 10,000 miles per annum turned into 17,000 miles - eek!! When I do have to venture south it can be a 360-400 mile round trip in a day - and a comfortable run it is too.

It really is a very capable car. Niggles? Lousy turning circle and no w/washer level warning. But I can (and do) live with it.

 

The turning circle is pretty poor isn't it.

[philip42h]

I doubt that relative cost is really a valid consideration. Over the last two tankfulls my HEV is costing me around 17.5p/mile to run. In theory if I had an EV doing 3 miles/kWh at today's current capped rate of 34p/kWh it might cost only 11.3p/mile; come next April that is forecast to rise to 13.6p/mile. But such running costs are totally dwarfed by the cost of depreciation of a new(ish) car.

And, as we are already seeing, the early adopter benefits of EV car ownership are being eroded. It's only a matter of time before we start to see the equivalent of 'fuel duty' applied to EV power (IMHO).

What really matters is the practicality and convenience of running an EV vs. a PHEV / HEV / ICE. A nominal 200 mile range from a full EV will easily cover the average to long daily commute. Mine used to be 40 miles each way and pretty much any EV would cover that. The issue comes when you need to "venture south and it can be a 360-400 mile round trip in a day" - which was pretty much the same for me - and you then know for certain that you will need to recharge once in the day. If that is easy and convenient then 'twist' if you fancy it; if not 'stick' until it is ... 😉

[Cyker]

My Mk1 Yaris also had a surprisingly bad turning circle, and you could hear the tyres dragging at full lock because the steering geometry wasn't quite right! (They probably ran out of space in the engine bay  )

[Phil E]

On 11/24/2022 at 8:04 PM, Lawnmowerman said:

When I purchased my 4.4 hybrid some 4 years ago I was absolutely delighted with Toyota's system. A real joy to own and use. Then, I was intrigued by the PHEV and purchased it just over a year ago.

As much as I enjoyed the 4.4 the PHEV is on another level. Then there is the BZ4thingamy and I was attracted to it also - but rain stopped play as it were and I couldn't test drive it. Still haven't  - if the dealer has it available then they haven't contacted me to offer it for test (and I was on the list originally).

But, this last week of sub-zero weather has reduced my typical 43 miles on a full charge to struggling to get 28 miles (and that in fog crawling along at some points at 20 mph) and at no time above 50 mph.

So, a full BEV in these conditions? Who knows.

Stick or twist?

I think I'll stick...............

I had pretty much the same experience 31 miles on a full charge. Weather wasn’t that cold but very wet and windy with lots of standing water. Gave me a good insight to what life would be like living with a BEV in terms of range reduction and having to charge regardless of weather. A full BEV is certainly not for me now or the foreseeable future

[Flatcoat]

2 hours ago, Phil E said:

I had pretty much the same experience 31 miles on a full charge. Weather wasn’t that cold but very wet and windy with lots of standing water. Gave me a good insight to what life would be like living with a BEV in terms of range reduction and having to charge regardless of weather. A full BEV is certainly not for me now or the foreseeable future

Same here. Out and about today the range has been much less than in summer although I will admit to not having set up the Battery conditioning which will probably help extend winter range. I suspect a lot of new BEV owners will find winter use frustrating and rethinking their choice. 

[Dippy]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:40 PM, Lawnmowerman said:

Circumstances have changed since I purchased it and no longer is a day's commuting covered by a single charge. Indeed an expected 10,000 miles per annum turned into 17,000 miles - eek!! When I do have to venture south it can be a 360-400 mile round trip in a day - and a comfortable run it is too.

For me it is this, not the finances, which clearly answers your question. The vast majority do less than 100 miles/day, and they could live with full electric and charge at night. Your situation is different. Stick and reconsider in a few years when charging capacity increases. 
The financial discussion is volatile for oil and electric and I wouldn’t make a 2-3 year decision based on prices in the last weeks or months. 

[TonyHSD]

The bz4x would be an upgrade only if you almost never used your petrol engine but do your journeys in ev. It’s basically very similar car without the engine and normal speedo. If you are about these longer miles trips Evs are nothing but trouble and any owner after the honeymoon period misses it’s hybrid or ice car for sure. Bev only good for short to medium trips and if the range allows two to three charges per week , anything more often it’s a huge burden. We have an bev and hev, I know well what I am saying. Perhaps stick with the rav4. Or rent a bz4x for two weeks if possible and you will see. 

[duncerduncs]

Interestingly, I've been working out the difference between the RAV4 PHEV and a Motion (silly trim name!) AWD.

The RAV4 PHEV still works out cheaper per month (for me) even accounting for the 'Luxury Tax' from year 2!

I have no idea what Toyota UK are trying to achieve with the prices of the bZ4X, that's before we start on the prices of the Lexus RZ450e - £62k starting price?!