YC Brakes Sticking

[TonyHSD]

25 minutes ago, corradovr6 said:

This is good info. To an extent, similar to diesels - great economy but not so for short trips, albeit for other reasons.

I've got no experience of Hybrids or EVs and there's no sensible verifiable real-life experience that I've seen, so this is great clarification. Thanks for sharing, and i would be interested in other peoples experiences too.

 

Hybrids are very good for short trips just not good for irregular use imo, for example once every 3 or 4 weeks. If you drive daily even only for a few miles they are still better than anything else. 
In what they are excellent and unbeatable are long hours drive either city or motorways, because they drives very easy and relaxed, they are quiet and smooth, less stressful, very efficient in both situations.
They lasts ages with only regular maintenance. All these above makes them the ideal choice for taxi and trade. The reason why Corolla been offered as TS work van in uk and I started to see often some of these on the streets. Toyota hybrids are still one of the most chosen cars for taxis in many towns except central London where those been replaced now by full evs as government restrictions and requirements. 
My current car was a second in the family with daily use of 4-5 miles within 30 min, plus occasional weekends longer drives of 40 miles for period of 3 years without a single problem.
Back in 2018 the car was taken by me as my business vehicle and I use it to drive between 200-300 miles daily within 12 hours shifts and again no major problems to date. And I don’t want to change for anything else for now., because after all years and miles still deliver it’s promise and doesn’t look too bad. 

[Cyker]

11 hours ago, anchorman said:

I don’t know what the brake thing has to do with it especially when you Showa mid range saloon.  You’re basically proving that all cars with disc brakes right up to Mayback with huge 12v are no good.  It’s a fact that untreated exposed cast iron will corrode overnight in the right climate - not vaguely related to a Yaris.   Drum brakes are used because they are cheap and in fact if they are mechanically operated, provide a better parking brake than a disc brake but they can’t be motorised and stay cheap so that doesn’t fit with the automatic application of the parking brake and there’s a very good reason for them being used more and more and drum brakes being withdrawn - there are a lot of people injured or killed by cars with manual parking brakes that run away.   Nothing mechanical likes a lack of use in exposed conditions including a garden gate and apart from the 12v battery, the rest of these city cars you quote will have all the same problems as a Yaris or any other cars that are little used and that’s just about every other Toyota right up to a RAV4 which is also Hybrid.  I say, rather than roll over and go backwards, start getting used to battery cars because pretty soon there will be no option even for Doris who does 200 miles a year, isn’t she entitled to have a car or does she become life expired at 75.  Every street in the country is jam packed with cars that are all going to have to transition to battery soon, what are they going to do when their Picanto has fallen apart?  What about the smaller family that can manage with a Yaris but not an Aygo?   I think education is the way forward.  Doris might be 75 but if she can drive a car, she isn’t stupid.  

I think you're missing the point he's making; He's not saying that disc brakes are bad.

The problem is they need to be used to stay in good condition, and in low-use hybrids and EVs, the low duty cycle means they will tend to get much rustier than in non-hybrid/EV cars.

Where in a normal car they'd often be deployed at all speeds, from 20-30mph to 70mph, in my Mk4 they basically only get used from 5mph to 0 90% of the time, which just isn't enough to keep them clean. My discs and pads would probably be in much worse condition if it weren't for the other 10%, which are usually 'exciting' moments, thanks to the wonderful selection of suicidal pedestrians, cyclists, scooters, bikers and homicidal trucks, vans, tractors etc. that are a feature of London roads  (I have to say I am always surprised how good the Mk4's brakes are - A few times since owning it I've had to brake so hard the hazards triggered, and the car stopped so hard I winded myself against the seatbelt  )

With all my previous cars, even the crustiest morning brake disc would be mirror smooth by the time I got to the end of my journey!  

It's not just hybrids but EVs too - There's a guy called James who works as a mobile service mechanic for Cleevely and he very often strips and cleans the brake system as part of the service due to how crusty they get. Apparently it's very common for Tesla brakes to get stuck as they are far too big for the car and never get hot or used enough to stay in good condition, so get caked in dirt and debris that never gets cleared until the whole thing jams.

Hopefully more service centres will roll that into their service routines - They need to justify the horrific EV servicing costs somehow, when they can no longer use an oil and filter change  

[anchorman]

4 hours ago, Cyker said:

I think you're missing the point he's making; He's not saying that disc brakes are bad.

The problem is they need to be used to stay in good condition, and in low-use hybrids and EVs, the low duty cycle means they will tend to get much rustier than in non-hybrid/EV cars.

Where in a normal car they'd often be deployed at all speeds, from 20-30mph to 70mph, in my Mk4 they basically only get used from 5mph to 0 90% of the time, which just isn't enough to keep them clean. My discs and pads would probably be in much worse condition if it weren't for the other 10%, which are usually 'exciting' moments, thanks to the wonderful selection of suicidal pedestrians, cyclists, scooters, bikers and homicidal trucks, vans, tractors etc. that are a feature of London roads  (I have to say I am always surprised how good the Mk4's brakes are - A few times since owning it I've had to brake so hard the hazards triggered, and the car stopped so hard I winded myself against the seatbelt  )

With all my previous cars, even the crustiest morning brake disc would be mirror smooth by the time I got to the end of my journey!  

It's not just hybrids but EVs too - There's a guy called James who works as a mobile service mechanic for Cleevely and he very often strips and cleans the brake system as part of the service due to how crusty they get. Apparently it's very common for Tesla brakes to get stuck as they are far too big for the car and never get hot or used enough to stay in good condition, so get caked in dirt and debris that never gets cleared until the whole thing jams.

Hopefully more service centres will roll that into their service routines - They need to justify the horrific EV servicing costs somehow, when they can no longer use an oil and filter change  

No I might not be a genius but I’m not stupid either but thanks for trying to put me right.  It’s another suggestion that the biggest car manufacturer in the world has somehow overlooked something Tony knew all along.  If you’re going to have a car you’ve got to have brakes and the fact they go rusty if not used isn’t an oversight it’s no different for a Yaris than it is any other car.  What he’s saying is a Yaris is no good for low mileage users and that was backed up with photos of rusty Auris brakes.  Small hybrids should have drum brakes front and rear?  65% of the work done by brakes is done at the front and only disc brakes are capable of meeting the European braking standards.  I agree that dealers might do more to assess customers needs and advise them of potential issues and they might even supply jump packs or chargers depending on the situation. 

[YarisHybrid2016]

I changed the discs/pads on my car last week at 85k miles. Still 7 mm of pad left. The discs were corroded to hell and were borderline MOT failure. Not sure what can be done to stop it.

[corradovr6]

10 hours ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

I changed the discs/pads on my car last week at 85k miles. Still 7 mm of pad left. The discs were corroded to hell and were borderline MOT failure. Not sure what can be done to stop it.

Is it feasible just to use the brakes a few times during the last 15mins of every drive? That way you'll get some heat into them and clean off any corrosion. As earlier, i dont have any EV experience so perhaps its just not the way they're used.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, corradovr6 said:

Is it feasible just to use the brakes a few times during the last 15mins of every drive? That way you'll get some heat into them and clean off any corrosion. As earlier, i dont have any EV experience so perhaps its just not the way they're used.

The problem with hybrids and evs is that not always possible to let the actual brakes do much because  this will depend of how and where you drive.
The brakes on these cars are always cold which is the biggest trouble.
Cars as new as under a year old can get their slider pins stuck and cause rust on the discs. Another problem is the larger alloys with huge openings between the spokes that let any light rain into the brakes, imagine the heavy storms. Add the horrible salt and grit thrown during winter that sticks immensely to the metal and act as catalyst and make corrosion many times worse. 

Non hybrids small cars are very different and much more suitable for infrequent use. They and any other standard cars without powerful regenerative braking always use the brakes when slow down, creating heat and heat from the friction  cleans the rust and evaporates any moisture locked inside the pins or pistons. In hybrids and evs that can only happen if you have excess use of the brakes in certain conditions, energetic town and country lanes drive, quick and often slow downs on motorway exits. If you are relaxed driver and do anticipate the road ahead avoiding unnecessary braking and quick slow downs your brakes will always be cold and will lack enough use that will bring all the issues with later. I often purposely do late brakes just to keep everything in order but I still do at least once a year proper brake service. 

[Cyker]

12 hours ago, anchorman said:

No I might not be a genius but I’m not stupid either but thanks for trying to put me right.  It’s another suggestion that the biggest car manufacturer in the world has somehow overlooked something Tony knew all along.  If you’re going to have a car you’ve got to have brakes and the fact they go rusty if not used isn’t an oversight it’s no different for a Yaris than it is any other car.  What he’s saying is a Yaris is no good for low mileage users and that was backed up with photos of rusty Auris brakes.  Small hybrids should have drum brakes front and rear?  65% of the work done by brakes is done at the front and only disc brakes are capable of meeting the European braking standards.  I agree that dealers might do more to assess customers needs and advise them of potential issues and they might even supply jump packs or chargers depending on the situation. 

Oh right, fair enough. That said, I must admit I'd tend to agree it's a bit daft getting a Yaris hybrid if you're only doing low miles - It is a *very* expensive vehicle, and unless you're doing a decent amount of miles a year you'll never make that back, vs a normal car.

Even in my case, with the mileage I do, I'm unlikely to get through £20,000 worth of fuel in this car's lifetime to off-set the difference in cost to the Mk1 and Mk2. (Hopefully the resell value will claw some of that back, but who knows what the future holds, esp. with per mile charging looking like it will come into force across the country within the next decade!  )

That plus the 12v Battery not getting enough charge issue, both would make it less suitable, unless they were willing to put up with those issues for the benefits of having such a good car  . It's tricky as they are relatively minor issues and shouldn't be overblown like what tended to happen in that other thread, but they can't be glossed over either. People just need to be made aware of them so they can make their own decision with all the facts.

And I think it's not so much that Toyota didn't think of them, more that they didn't consider them big enough issues to divert R&D to, as they both are more or less avoided by using the car regularly.

While drum brakes might help with that specific issue, you're right that they're dead on newer cars as it's difficult to have as effective ABS and traction control due to their propensity to lock up the wheels much more easily than disc brakes. I did like them on my older cars as they were basically maintenance free, and made handbrake implementation much simpler (No need for weird hacks like drum-in-hub or cams and cantilevers to allow enough force to be applied to a disc), but with EPBs becoming ubiquitous and the high priority on safety, I doubt we'll see them any more except on very specialist vehicles.

Having felt how effective they are on the Mk4 - Not just the stopping power, but also things like the torque-vectored braking when it senses I'm understeering, I have no complaints about having all discs   . It's funny as when I was younger I always saw rear discs as the purview of high-powered sports cars and it still amuses me that my Mk4 has them  

 

 

11 hours ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

I changed the discs/pads on my car last week at 85k miles. Still 7 mm of pad left. The discs were corroded to hell and were borderline MOT failure. Not sure what can be done to stop it.

Do what I do and go for a mad hoon on some fun roads on the occasional weekend  

That would be better when you get the Mk4 tho'; It's not so fun in the Mk3 as you kinda feel it doesn't really want to be driven like that..

.You could also try Tony's trick of finding a clear road and shifting to N and firmly braking a few times - The regen braking is disabled in N so that's one of the few ways to force it to use the friction brakes.

Or maybe see if whoever services your car would be willing to strip them and wire brush the calipers and stuff come service time.

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Oh right, fair enough. That said, I must admit I'd tend to agree it's a bit daft getting a Yaris hybrid if you're only doing low miles - It is a *very* expensive vehicle, and unless you're doing a decent amount of miles a year you'll never make that back, vs a normal car.

Even in my case, with the mileage I do, I'm unlikely to get through £20,000 worth of fuel in this car's lifetime to off-set the difference in cost to the Mk1 and Mk2. (Hopefully the resell value will claw some of that back, but who knows what the future holds, esp. with per mile charging looking like it will come into force across the country within the next decade!  )

That plus the 12v battery not getting enough charge issue, both would make it less suitable, unless they were willing to put up with those issues for the benefits of having such a good car  . It's tricky as they are relatively minor issues and shouldn't be overblown like what tended to happen in that other thread, but they can't be glossed over either. People just need to be made aware of them so they can make their own decision with all the facts.

And I think it's not so much that Toyota didn't think of them, more that they didn't consider them big enough issues to divert R&D to, as they both are more or less avoided by using the car regularly.

While drum brakes might help with that specific issue, you're right that they're dead on newer cars as it's difficult to have as effective ABS and traction control due to their propensity to lock up the wheels much more easily than disc brakes. I did like them on my older cars as they were basically maintenance free, and made handbrake implementation much simpler (No need for weird hacks like drum-in-hub or cams and cantilevers to allow enough force to be applied to a disc), but with EPBs becoming ubiquitous and the high priority on safety, I doubt we'll see them any more except on very specialist vehicles.

Having felt how effective they are on the Mk4 - Not just the stopping power, but also things like the torque-vectored braking when it senses I'm understeering, I have no complaints about having all discs   . It's funny as when I was younger I always saw rear discs as the purview of high-powered sports cars and it still amuses me that my Mk4 has them  

 

 

Do what I do and go for a mad hoon on some fun roads on the occasional weekend  

That would be better when you get the Mk4 tho'; It's not so fun in the Mk3 as you kinda feel it doesn't really want to be driven like that..

.You could also try Tony's trick of finding a clear road and shifting to N and firmly braking a few times - The regen braking is disabled in N so that's one of the few ways to force it to use the friction brakes.

Or maybe see if whoever services your car would be willing to strip them and wire brush the calipers and stuff come service time.

It depends why you want the car.  Trying to get its value back in fuel savings was non existent in my choice but it’s residual value will be.  My buying experience isn’t flawless.  I had all that nonsense of it being registered before the end of the year just to frig Toyota’s carbon figures was utterly distasteful and despite being warned on here I made the foolish naive mistake of trusting the dealer which I will never do again.  They argued it was only so they could tax it on the fake promised day, well if that was the case, why does the PDI show up on the 31/12 when it never even arrived on the transporter until the 3rd.  I don’t blame the dealer for following Toyota’s instructions (if indeed they didn’t’ frig their own sales figures for 2022) but I do for being dishonest and complicit.  Now to the car itself.  There were a few things I found disappointing.  The interior lighting is pathetic and only acceptable now by adding LED bulbs and LED rear lighting.  The horn is another cheap money saving disappointment.  I’ve also improved the sound deadening which has transformed the car considerably for the better.  However, I will only buy Japanese cars and I trust the engineering implicitly.  There is this general consensus that they under develop the cars and don’t consider every possibility (low use being the favourite topic).  It’s something that can only come out of never being in a vehicle development environment.  The likes of Toyota consider things that the every day user would never consider and I can 100% guarantee that low use will have been but they balance risk with cost and why should the majority of users have to pay to have a vehicle that caters for extremes?  You can build in a remote jump pack and you can add a bigger Battery but it makes no sense when your heading out to 3 standard deviations because it adds cost, it adds weight and it increases emissions.  In my opinion that should be addressed by the dealer.  If a customer rocks up with a 3 year old car with 9000 miles on the clock it then alarm bells should ring and just by looking at a customer you can often work out whether they are likely to be capable of using a charger or a jump pack and it wouldn’t take many questions to find out  Then a hundred quid for a decent jump pack or charger is nothing for the dealer to supply - its all about customer satisfaction not maximising profit.

Now this business of drum brakes.  I was in brake development for 17 years and there are extreme reasons when a drum brake might lock before a disc brake but just wondered what your reasoning for saying that was?

[Cyker]

Yes, totally! Absolutely agree. They have a budget to build the car with so they have to prioritise where to allocate it. I'm happy that the majority of it has gone into the structure and drivetrain, and where they've compromised in other areas is acceptable to me. This won't be the same for everyone - I know a lot of people would prefer more go into the interior comfort, which is why e.g. the german and french brands are still around, but the choice is there. Each to their own and all that.

 

re. drum brakes - I could be wrong, as this is just what I've read, but I was led to believe the biggest reason we moved from drums to discs was specifically because a brake disc has a much higher... threshold? before they lock up, so you can apply a much higher clamping force and thus braking force, without it locking up.

With drums, I'm led to understand they have a tendency to self 'bite' or whatever the term is, which is why they stuck around for so long for use with the handbrake - Once engaged and locked, they have a tendency to stay locked and you can't do what you can do with brake discs, i.e. loosen off a bit to let it turn, but instead you have to practically release the drum for it to start turning again and then re-engage to re apply braking force.

But again, as someone who knows nothing about anything, I am by no means an authoritative wossname on the subject!  

[anchorman]

42 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Yes, totally! Absolutely agree. They have a budget to build the car with so they have to prioritise where to allocate it. I'm happy that the majority of it has gone into the structure and drivetrain, and where they've compromised in other areas is acceptable to me. This won't be the same for everyone - I know a lot of people would prefer more go into the interior comfort, which is why e.g. the german and french brands are still around, but the choice is there. Each to their own and all that.

 

re. drum brakes - I could be wrong, as this is just what I've read, but I was led to believe the biggest reason we moved from drums to discs was specifically because a brake disc has a much higher... threshold? before they lock up, so you can apply a much higher clamping force and thus braking force, without it locking up.

With drums, I'm led to understand they have a tendency to self 'bite' or whatever the term is, which is why they stuck around for so long for use with the handbrake - Once engaged and locked, they have a tendency to stay locked and you can't do what you can do with brake discs, i.e. loosen off a bit to let it turn, but instead you have to practically release the drum for it to start turning again and then re-engage to re apply braking force.

But again, as someone who knows nothing about anything, I am by no means an authoritative wossname on the subject!  

Well you certainly picked up some of the correct terminology in whatever you read.  Threshold is the effort required to put the shoes or pads in contact with the braking surface so drum brake return springs have a higher threshold than the piston seals in a disc brake.  Disc brakes don’t have a return spring it’s just the piston seals returning to their relaxed state and maybe a bit of disc contact that pushes them clear.  The main advantage of a disc brake over a drum brake is that it has a completely linear output where a drum brake output rises exponentially with friction. As you rightly allude to, it has a self servo action that can lock (called spragging) but only if the friction is high enough.  The bottom line is that a disc brake output changes very little with changes in friction and drum brake output has very large changes in output in only small changes in friction. Drum brakes are considered unstable by comparison.  I might have some graphs in an Alan Baker book somewhere if I can find them.  Going back to your original comment about them locking up, they would only normally sprag if the friction went up but it is more likely to go down than up.  

[Cyker]

Thanks, every day is a learning day!  

[Derek.w]

All disc rotors rust more so in winter if your callipers are sticking its time they were striped down or at least the slider pins removed cleand and regreased but if you doing that might as well do the brake pads & guides.

If you have a deep grove on the edge of the rotor its aids removal of the pads if you grind off the lip first.

[Knorton]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:42 PM, TonyHSD said:

I think Toyota hybrids aren’t suitable for people who drives very occasionally and most of the time the car just seats outside on the driveway/ street. Cars like Aygo or vw Up, kia Picanto, Suzuki ignis, the most basic of all are the most suitable. They have less amount of ecu’s, drum brakes on the rear, wheel covers, 12v battery that lasts ages, manual parking brake in some, they also super easy reaching working temperature and quickly cool down, pretty much the perfect run around. Sometimes we need cars very occasionally, nothing wrong to have one if you love and enjoy driving. Here btw how look brakes on a car that is driven in the worst possible scenario during winter in uk, early mornings just after the gritters, and this is only one full day without use. , when I parked the car had clean and shiny discs all around, now only front left is so so, the rest are horrible

 👍

I am trading in my up gti for a YC and i can comfirm that the brakes do exactly the same. It is used regularly but sometimes stands a couple of days between use and on driving of there is sometimes a bang as the brakes free but always the grind as they skim the surface rust away. But I do live on the coast in SE Kent.

 

[YarisHybrid2016]

So far, the wheel covers are doing their job! No stuck brakes today!

[Derek.w]

I just drive a hybrid occasionally and my brakes dont stick.

[Cyker]

Good! I mean, it's not something that happens normally - Usually you need some unusual factor, e.g. the car's left stationary for a really long time, there's been torrential rain for several days, freezing temperatures etc.

 

[TonyHSD]

The salt on the roads is the major factor that causes so much of a trouble. The rain only causes rust but not as much as the salt adds up. 
Any car brakes will form rust if the car not been used regularly but quickly they get polished as soon as you start driving the car.

The difference in hybrids and electric cars is that the regenerative braking takes away a large percentage of the regular brake system work , the friction is less and it takes longer time to get the rust removed. 
The other factor is heat, the hev and bev has cold brakes.
This does not prevent moisture evaporate and locks inside the callipers slider pins, with the time the moisture  mixed with the grease will change the grease lubricating properties and the pins will stop moving freely and outer pad will have no stopping power but will stay stationary like support only., the disc will become scored and rusty.  
Driving in towns actually  helps to clean the discs quickly because you are using more often the actual brakes coming to a complete stop and cowling in traffic jams. Just have a look at taxi and mini cab Priuses, they all have polished to shine brake discs. 👌

[Tel 2]

Have driven Hybrids for 10 years & never suffered disk break issues.

Had my Cross for 20 days & cleaned it once-----no brake issues whatsoever & the discs are pristine.

I am not a Taxi Driver & never had new Discs, even when I was consuming Company Cars commuting to Coventry daily.

Tel

 

[Stivino]

2 hours ago, Tel 2 said:

Have driven Hybrids for 10 years & never suffered disk break issues.

Had my Cross for 20 days & cleaned it once-----no brake issues whatsoever & the discs are pristine.

I am not a Taxi Driver & never had new Discs, even when I was consuming Company Cars commuting to Coventry daily.

Tel

 

At last, someone who talks sense.

[Derek.w]

First Brick under two wheels then handbrake moved into off position.

If brakes are sticking lift wheel up and check if it you can turn it.

If one side is not turning then thats the problem.

 

[cruiserOAP]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:17 AM, YarisHybrid2016 said:

I changed the discs/pads on my car last week at 85k miles. Still 7 mm of pad left. The discs were corroded to hell and were borderline MOT failure. Not sure what can be done to stop it.

I believe Brembo make a rust free disc, but I don't know if there is a Toyota fitment. My BMW bikes always had stainless discs, for appearance but they were always shiny and spotless without that crusty outer ring you get with car discs

[TonyHSD]

The only rust free discs will be the ceramic ones but except new supra (bmw) I don’t know any other Toyota has those, perhaps some trims of Yaris gr4., but I am not sure. Any car steel discs will rust if the car been left seating about without use and there is rain, wind and moisture. In some dry sunny regions of the world rust won’t be a problem but in uk it is and it’s big one. During lockdown 2020 my brand new fitted brakes all around turned really bad in a short period of of time. The reason is obvious, lack of use and rainy days.

First picture 14/02/2020 


then 22/03/2021 

 

High quality aftermarket parts with anti corrosion paint on them., nothing helps really against the elements and particularly the salt and grit mixed with water. 👌

[JohnWE]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:11 AM, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Hi,

The Cross doesn't get driven for days at a time, and for the second time now, the brakes got stuck on quite significantly. More power than was comfortable was needed to get the car moving, accompanied by an almighty bang so loud my wife (who was in the house) thought I'd crashed into the garage door. 😳

It's currently +1 deg. C., and the car was iced over.

Anyone else have the brakes stick badly on the Cross? It seemed it was the front brakes that had stuck, and maybe the rear, too. Ours is FWD and there was no hint of it pulling against the rear brakes, so I'm 99% sure the front was stuck on.

I'm now looking for a set of wheel covers.

 

[tumpboy]

How do I leave my car in park mode, but with electronic handbrake disengaged?

I switch off engine and handbrake engages automatically!

[anchorman]

10 hours ago, tumpboy said:

How do I leave my car in park mode, but with electronic handbrake disengaged?

I switch off engine and handbrake engages automatically!

With it in Park and the ready mode, press and hold the park brake switch in the off position.  Once you’ve done that, you’ll have to do the opposite to reinstate it and keep in mind, you have to do it every time you want the park brake on until it’s reinstated.