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2.0 hybrid judder /missfire


taxidriver50005
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11 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Replacement engine on Toyota? Or I misunderstood? 

Yes, apparently he had the missfire for a while.. Had visited dealers who acknowledge they could feel it but didn't know what it was and sent him on his way. 

On a follow up visit still complaining of misfire.. Getting worse dealer took car for test drive and apparently damage the motor ( would love to see what really happened)... Anyhow motor was replaced.. ( 3 months without car) and now the misfire is back. 

The second dealer he has taken it too says only 1 injector was replaced when the motor was replaced, so 4 injectors for him next week. 

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3 minutes ago, taxidriver50005 said:

Yes, apparently he had the missfire for a while.. Had visited dealers who acknowledge they could feel it but didn't know what it was and sent him on his way. 

On a follow up visit still complaining of misfire.. Getting worse dealer took car for test drive and apparently damage the motor ( would love to see what really happened)... Anyhow motor was replaced.. ( 3 months without car) and now the misfire is back. 

The second dealer he has taken it too says only 1 injector was replaced when the motor was replaced, so 4 injectors for him next week. 

These aren’t a good news. Most Corolla private owners does not drive much but I see the 2.0 versions are getting popular within taxi trade doing higher mileage, and this could be a serious problem, costly at least. In USA they have these engines since 2019 on many models even non hybrid versions and if they were any problems would be full with YouTube videos. 
I suspect quality of the fuel, not just the e10 but the quality itself.
I drive more than a taxi in most of my days and used fill up whenever I can and noticed that no two petrol stations has the same fuel quality, I know my car well and I can feel how engine sounds and accelerate. I found Tesco momentum e5 99 best price -quality ratio , local bp also good. , but again not all Tesco or bp garages are the same., or Shell for example. Some Shell petrol stations sell rubbish petrol, the car can show us the best. Find the petrol station and type of fuel that your engine likes the most and stick with it is my only suggestion. 

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If you fancy trying a different fuel use Esso 99 …. Badged as E5 but the only Uk fuel that for much of the Uk has actually got zero ethanol.  E5 means between 0 and 5% ethanol.  Esso state other than I think some of the North East and South West the rest of the Uk is at zero ethanol in their 99.  I use it when I can for that reason.  

The Esso 99 has, like most of the 99 Ron fuels, double the cleaning agents of the normal 95 Ron fuels too.  I used to use 99 Ron as my turbo BMW was remapped for it.  Obviously now with a Phev I don’t need to … but am continuing for the cleaning aspect and as it is habit.

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2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

These aren’t a good news. Most Corolla private owners does not drive much but I see the 2.0 versions are getting popular within taxi trade doing higher mileage, and this could be a serious problem, costly at least. In USA they have these engines since 2019 on many models even non hybrid versions and if they were any problems would be full with YouTube videos. 
I suspect quality of the fuel, not just the e10 but the quality itself.

I drive more than a taxi in most of my days and used fill up whenever I can and noticed that no two petrol stations has the same fuel quality, I know my car well and I can feel how engine sounds and accelerate. I found Tesco momentum e5 99 best price -quality ratio , local bp also good. , but again not all Tesco or bp garages are the same., or shell for example. Some shell petrol stations sell rubbish petrol, the car can show us the best. Find the petrol station and type of fuel that your engine likes the most and stick with it is my only suggestion. 

I think E10 in itself is probably a red herring. E10 has been available in parts of the US for over a decade and as you say there don't seem to be any reports of injector problems on their 2.0 engines. The general consensus of US mechanics that I've seen talking about this series of engines is that they are very reliable. So, is it caused by general UK quality fuel as you suggest? Or do the versions sold/built in Europe use different injectors to the US versions perhaps?

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Annoyingly Esso announced they will start adding ethanol to their E5 towards the end of the year, confirmed on their website :sad: 

 

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31 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Annoyingly Esso announced they will start adding ethanol to their E5 towards the end of the year, confirmed on their website :sad: 

 

That is sad news.

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I am working on the egr at the moment, what a difficult job. Here how the valves and injectors look on 1.8 2zr-fxe after 245000 miles. 
A lots of oil into the intake but on the exhaust side looks better than before. Last clean up was 100000 miles ago
image.thumb.jpeg.e059064eb3012a8825e105d2ea92f5c0.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.214f4b078fd96444fe7da73a33209477.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.e70f35c4aa3b708707fe7472b1748f5d.jpeg

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I wonder if the 2.0L engine on the MY23 would be any different than the MY22 , or the so called 5th gen hybrid system is composed by the same engine and new electric motor , power control unit

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5 hours ago, DC_Ms said:

I wonder if the 2.0L engine on the MY23 would be any different than the MY22 , or the so called 5th gen hybrid system is composed by the same engine and new electric motor , power control unit

From my understanding motor is the same with more powerful electric motor added. 

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6 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

I am working on the egr at the moment, what a difficult job. Here how the valves and injectors look on 1.8 2zr-fxe after 245000 miles. 
A lots of oil into the intake but on the exhaust side looks better than before. Last clean up was 100000 miles ago
image.thumb.jpeg.e059064eb3012a8825e105d2ea92f5c0.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.214f4b078fd96444fe7da73a33209477.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.e70f35c4aa3b708707fe7472b1748f5d.jpeg

Are you burning oil tony, I know old prius / Auris 1.8 was renowned for oil consumption 

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7 hours ago, SO8 said:

That is sad news.

Yeah it sucks, esp. for classic car owners who were using it in vehicles which are totally incompatible with ethanol due to seals or hoses etc.

I do wonder why Esso have made that change, wonder if the government are leaning on them, or just refineries are now pre-mixing some ethanol into the fuel before distribution so they can't get any ethanol-free fuel?

It's funny - If the idiots in charge had ignored the scumbag that pushed lead as an anti-knock additive, ethanol would likely have been used from the get-go instead and we wouldn't have to deal with all these inherited problems (From both the ethanol and the lead!!)

 

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4 minutes ago, taxidriver50005 said:

Are you burning oil tony, I know old prius / Auris 1.8 was renowned for oil consumption 

Oh yes, a lot . I see the manifold and throttle body full of oil straight from the pcv valve. Been working 6 hrs today and cleaned everything. Tomorrow I hope I can put back in all the parts, new pcv and new gaskets. 

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11 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

These aren’t a good news. Most Corolla private owners does not drive much but I see the 2.0 versions are getting popular within taxi trade doing higher mileage, and this could be a serious problem, costly at least. In USA they have these engines since 2019 on many models even non hybrid versions and if they were any problems would be full with YouTube videos. 
I suspect quality of the fuel, not just the e10 but the quality itself.
I drive more than a taxi in most of my days and used fill up whenever I can and noticed that no two petrol stations has the same fuel quality, I know my car well and I can feel how engine sounds and accelerate. I found Tesco momentum e5 99 best price -quality ratio , local bp also good. , but again not all Tesco or bp garages are the same., or shell for example. Some shell petrol stations sell rubbish petrol, the car can show us the best. Find the petrol station and type of fuel that your engine likes the most and stick with it is my only suggestion. 

I’m certainly going to use better fuels more regularly. I try to give mine a good blast from time to time to help get plenty of heat in and use a higher flow rate of the injectors to keep things clean too. 

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28 minutes ago, Gray86 said:

I’m certainly going to use better fuels more regularly. I try to give mine a good blast from time to time to help get plenty of heat in and use a higher flow rate of the injectors to keep things clean too. 

What exactly do you mean by giving a good blast ? What exactly are you doing ?

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Pushing the accelerator more. There is no need really to push it to the floor often or at all. As long as you drive normally and sometimes longer than 20-30 min journeys on motorway or A roads this will be enough to get everything hot and clean. Do you know that the cat gets as hot as 600C° and more? , I was checking some live data with Carista and when I looked at the cat temperature was  shocked how hot it gets and this with just normal drive no high speeds or brisk acceleration. Here but went down very quickly, it was showing 601C° image.thumb.png.29bd55ab567faebb0f0f816978d8d713.png

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2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Oh yes, a lot . I see the manifold and throttle body full of oil straight from the pcv valve. Been working 6 hrs today and cleaned everything. Tomorrow I hope I can put back in all the parts, new pcv and new gaskets. 

I was under impression newer 1.8 in corolla had sorted this issue out, right I still own 2 gen 3 prius.. 350 thousand and 250 thousand on other. 

Both cars don't burn oil at least to the point they never need topping up between services, the wife's car now with 250 thousand was an oil burner when we bought it, I have cured this nasty habit by doing a piston soak over a week and periodic engine oil flushing. This reduced oil consumption from a couple of litres evey 10,000 to not needing to top up at all. Other car has never burnt oil but has had oil flushed evey 3rd oil change since it had done 140,000 miles. 

Now the car with 350,000 has just had head gasket replaced but was exceptionally clean and free from wear and secondly EGR cooler. EGR. And manafold where not clogged up as had been the case when I originally cleaned them at 140,000 and started to do the engine flushes. 

So it may be worth a go with the engine flush.. Starting with piston soak to clear up the oil rings which from what I've read is the main problem. 

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Yeah, the exhaust temp of petrol engines is scary high, esp. compared to diesel! It's one of the reasons turbos are a no-brainer on diesel, but I wouldn't trust one long term on petrol...

 

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On 5/17/2023 at 11:40 PM, taxidriver50005 said:

I was under impression newer 1.8 in corolla had sorted this issue out, right I still own 2 gen 3 prius.. 350 thousand and 250 thousand on other. 

Both cars don't burn oil at least to the point they never need topping up between services, the wife's car now with 250 thousand was an oil burner when we bought it, I have cured this nasty habit by doing a piston soak over a week and periodic engine oil flushing. This reduced oil consumption from a couple of litres evey 10,000 to not needing to top up at all. Other car has never burnt oil but has had oil flushed evey 3rd oil change since it had done 140,000 miles. 

Now the car with 350,000 has just had head gasket replaced but was exceptionally clean and free from wear and secondly EGR cooler. EGR. And manafold where not clogged up as had been the case when I originally cleaned them at 140,000 and started to do the engine flushes. 

So it may be worth a go with the engine flush.. Starting with piston soak to clear up the oil rings which from what I've read is the main problem. 

Almost all 4 cylinder Toyota will eventually burn oil with 10k miles/1 year oil change interval.  The V6 2GR family and newer are less prone to oil consumption. Which Prius 3 year do you have?  Toyota has redesigned piston and piston rings on 2015 and since then till today, they are much less prone to burning oil. I have 2015 Auris and do 5-7k miles/8 months oil change interval since 70k miles. It burns no oil at all during that period.  I never use anything but just pure 0w-20 oil either from Toyota, VW, Opel, Castrol, Ravenol, or Mannol 508/509 oil.  Now at  about 90k miles, still new for me. Most Toyota I had in the past were  always beyond 200k miles before I sold them. 

In fact, oil change is the most important thing and do more than the service schedule because it is proven for decades, Toyota gasoline engine does not like 10k miles interval once it pass 60k miles.  Brake fluid nees inspection only, just like what TESLA maintenance book said. We should change the transmission fluid eventually 60-120 k miles interval is enough and clean the EGR valve every 100k miles if burning oil or 200k miles if not. Brake needs regular cleaning (sliding bolts and contact between calipers and clips). Check the rubber parts annually the bushings and damper, HV air filter, cabin air filter, and underbody/suspension. Pressure washing in spring helps. 

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On 5/17/2023 at 9:43 PM, TonyHSD said:

Pushing the accelerator more. There is no need really to push it to the floor often or at all. As long as you drive normally and sometimes longer than 20-30 min journeys on motorway or A roads this will be enough to get everything hot and clean. Do you know that the cat gets as hot as 600C° and more? , I was checking some live data with Carista and when I looked at the cat temperature was  shocked how hot it gets and this with just normal drive no high speeds or brisk acceleration. Here but went down very quickly, it was showing 601C° image.thumb.png.29bd55ab567faebb0f0f816978d8d713.png

I tested with my IR laser sensor, it is out of range too. I think mine is only max at 380C.  The temperature is much higher when we are climbing uphill or do a lot of hard acceleration from rich mixture and a lot of unburned fuel inside the catalytic converter. 

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9 hours ago, AisinW said:

Almost all 4 cylinder Toyota will eventually burn oil with 10k miles/1 year oil change interval.  The V6 2GR family and newer are less prone to oil consumption. Which Prius 3 year do you have?  Toyota has redesigned piston and piston rings on 2015 and since then till today, they are much less prone to burning oil. I have 2015 Auris and do 5-7k miles/8 months oil change interval since 70k miles. It burns no oil at all during that period.  I never use anything but just pure 0w-20 oil either from Toyota, VW, Opel, Castrol, Ravenol, or Mannol 508/509 oil.  Now at  about 90k miles, still new for me. Most Toyota I had in the past were  always beyond 200k miles before I sold them. 

In fact, oil change is the most important thing and do more than the service schedule because it is proven for decades, Toyota gasoline engine does not like 10k miles interval once it pass 60k miles.  Brake fluid nees inspection only, just like what TESLA maintenance book said. We should change the transmission fluid eventually 60-120 k miles interval is enough and clean the EGR valve every 100k miles if burning oil or 200k miles if not. Brake needs regular cleaning (sliding bolts and contact between calipers and clips). Check the rubber parts annually the bushings and damper, HV air filter, cabin air filter, and underbody/suspension. Pressure washing in spring helps. 

Transmission oil changed every 50,000.oil every 10,000 or 2 months for me.. Oil flush every 3rd oil change.. Spark plugs every other year. 120,000.....other filters when I remember.. Brake sliding pins every year get a lube.. And that seams to work with both my 2010 and 2012 prius. 

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Thanks Alan for the answers. Yes, 2010-2012 2ZR-FXE are the most problematic yet it is still way reliable than other engines. I change Iridium sparkplugs every 120k miles since the past 15 years with Toyota and Nissan. Iridium is the hardest and most corrosion resistance metal and they are designed for 120k miles. Even after that long, no noticable wear when I replaced them at 120k miles.  We should still opened them every 10 years to avoid seizing from burned oil  or leaks. 50k Toyota WS interval is more than enough but the wear is very mild on hybrid without clutch pack like most torque converter or dual clutch type transmissions.

Do you havr catshield yet? That is the most urgent add on  these days.  Rhodium price ever reached $1 million per kg. 

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Yup catshield in both cars thanks 

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On 5/17/2023 at 8:35 PM, DC_Ms said:

What exactly do you mean by giving a good blast ? What exactly are you doing ?

Foot to the floor for a bit (also helps clear water out of the exhaust that causes the 2.0 TS to steam a bit) 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I wish I’d seen this yesterday 😆

I thought these hybrid engines were indestructible.

didn’t notice any issues on my test drive today anyway and I took it for a good 45 mins of different road types and speeds. 
 

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9 minutes ago, Steven83 said:

Well I wish I’d seen this yesterday 😆

I thought these hybrid engines were indestructible.

didn’t notice any issues on my test drive today anyway and I took it for a good 45 mins of different road types and speeds. 
 

I’ve seen this topic discussed on Facebook groups & even Toyota techs haven’t heard of it. Sounds like a handful of cases in the UK only, mainly taxis. Not something to worry about. Use good quality fuel to help mitigate 

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